Joshua Boyle and Caitlan Coleman

[Carm_88]

I don't think there is a good answer for this couple. I just hope that CSIS watches them. No matter what their connections beforehand, Stockholm Syndrome is a real thing. 

Edited October 25, 2017 by Carm_88

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

@Carm_88--CSIS is Canadian Security Intelligence Service, right? I agree that it would be naïve to believe that these two are innocent little lambs who accidentally strayed into a war zone, but I guess I'm not ready to string them up either. If they have extremist beliefs, I'm sure it will come out. 

But what do I know? I still feel sorry for Bowe Bergdahl. (I think he deserted, but I also think that the military should never have let him join up. I hope some psychologist uses his case to help weed out people who are not psychologically suited to serve in the military.)

[Carm_88]

@WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? Yep that indeed is CSIS!  I agree they won't be able to hide extremist beliefs for long. 

[OtterRuletheWorld]

I don't feel sorry for Bergdahl at all. He plead guilty to desertion, so there is really no "thinking" about it. His actions lead to the death of others.

[samurai_sarah]

@OtterRuletheWorld

I am glad to hear that it is common knowledge that Farsi is such a wide-spread language.

[HarryPotterFan]

6 hours ago, samurai_sarah said:

While I will readily believe that they wanted a family, I find this kind of attitude to be weird, when in captivity under the conditions described.

Same. They also said they didn't know how long they'd be captives for, so they wanted to start a family right alway. But who would want to have a child in such conditions, not knowing if you or your family would ever escape? Where it's rare someone will allow your child to see the sun? It just seems like they made a decision to have children born and raised as a prisoners, and no child deserves that. Like what if they stayed for years more, decades even? It boggles the mind. 

ETA: That blog posted doesn't even try to hide its biased, hateful drivel. It makes it hard to take anything else it says seriously. And for the writer to say they wish the couple was never rescued when there are innocent children involved is pretty shitty. Give me an unbiased source with these claims about the couples' beliefs. And apparently since the kids have "Muslim names" they'll grow up to hate the west. That's islamophobic crap. 

Yes, we can question Joshua and Caitalin's motivation for going to a terrorist controlled area in Afghanistan, and question their critical thinking abilities for choices they've made, but blatant hatred and islamophbia is just wrong.

Edited October 25, 2017 by HarryPotterFan
More editing because "hibkibn" = "thinking." I can type.

[Carm_88]

22 minutes ago, HarryPotterFan said:

 Yes, we can question Joshua and Caitalin's motivation for going to a terrorist controlled area in Afghanistan, and question their critical hibkibn abilities for choices they've made, but blatant hatred and islamophbia is just wrong.

Also cruel because the vast majority of the followers of Islam are regular people who carry no hateful beliefs. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

55 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

@OtterRuletheWorld

I am glad to hear that it is common knowledge that Farsi is such a wide-spread language.

See, I thought the point was that we should never trust anybody who can speak more than one language. (Which makes me giggle, given present company.  )

[OtterRuletheWorld]

13 minutes ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

See, I thought the point was that we should never trust anybody who can speak more than one language. (Which makes me giggle, given present company.  )

Does trust decrease per language?

[Howl]

1 hour ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

But what do I know? I still feel sorry for Bowe Bergdahl. (I think he deserted, but I also think that the military should never have let him join up. I hope some psychologist uses his case to help weed out people who are not psychologically suited to serve in the military.)

Bowe was captured by the Haqqani, the same group that captured and held the Boyles. 

[nssherlock]

2 minutes ago, Howl said:

Bowe was captured by the Haqqani, the same group that captured and held the Boyles. 

Other accounts report she knew she was being poisoned with oestrogen because her husband understood Farsi and heard the guards talking about this. But some Pakistani blogs are pointing out that the Haqqani group all speak Pashto, not Farsi, which is spoken further north.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

1 hour ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Does trust decrease per language?

I certainly don't think so. I also think that speaking or understanding Farsi is not by itself anything suspicious. I'm pretty sure there might be some people in my general neighborhood who speak Farsi. I know some neighbors who speak Spanish and some who speak Swahili. I'm not the one who found Joshua Boyle knowing Farsi suspicious. 

ETA--To spell it out, I was being S-A-R-C-A-S-T-I-C.

Edited October 25, 2017 by WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?
ETA and belated underlining

[nssherlock]

1 minute ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I certainly don't think so. I also think that speaking or understanding Farsi is not by itself anything suspicious. I'm pretty sure there might be some people in my general neighborhood who speak Farsi. I know some neighbors who speak Spanish and some who speak Swahili. I'm not the one who found Joshua Boyle knowing Farsi suspicious. 

I suspect, whatever language the Haqqani were speaking, and whether he understood a word of it or not,  Boyle filled Coleman's head with whatever he wanted her to believe.   I don't believe a word he says, but she obviously is completely brainwashed by him.

[OtterRuletheWorld]

5 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I certainly don't think so. I also think that speaking or understanding Farsi is not by itself anything suspicious. I'm pretty sure there might be some people in my general neighborhood who speak Farsi. I know some neighbors who speak Spanish and some who speak Swahili. I'm not the one who found Joshua Boyle knowing Farsi suspicious. 

ETA--To spell it out, I was being S-A-R-C-A-S-T-I-C.

I realize you were being sarcastic.
I was pointing out that the original post had to explain what Farsi is. It would be like someone telling me "because her husband understands Spanish (a Romance Language, which is also spoken in Mexico)" The Daily Mail mail never explained because the Daily Mail assumes that most readers know what Farsi is. I assume most readers know what Farsi is. Just like I assume most people know what Dutch is.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

@OtterRuletheWorld, gotcha. I misunderstood your meaning.

I personally try to assume as little as possible. After I met someone who thought that New England was a state and heard someone else state that someone should go be a missionary in the Mojave desert, I stopped assuming geographic knowledge was a basic. I wouldn't assume average readers recognize what Farsi is. It's too disillusioning when people show ignorance. Plus, I show my ignorance fairly often, so I try not to act like a jerk when I'm knowledgeable. 

[OtterRuletheWorld]

1 minute ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

@OtterRuletheWorld, gotcha. I misunderstood your meaning.

I personally try to assume as little as possible. After I met someone who thought that New England was a state and heard someone else state that someone should go be a missionary in the Mojave desert, I stopped assuming geographic knowledge was a basic. I wouldn't assume average readers recognize what Farsi is. It's too disillusioning when people show ignorance. Plus, I show my ignorance fairly often, so I try not to act like a jerk when I'm knowledgeable. 

At the same time, I don't offer up explanations in such a manner and assume people ARE ignorant.  Not people I have conversations with on a regular basis. Maybe the poster just knows posters here better than me and felt it needed to be explained. I hadn't got that impression here. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

I generally prefer 20 words when 3 might do. (You should see my text messages!  ) I almost always prefer to spell things out rather than risk misunderstanding because I was laconic. It means I come off as pedantic sometimes and probably condescending sometimes. I prefer that to being confusing because I was being cryptic. 

And on the subject of being overly long winded, good night, FJ! I really need some sleep!

[OtterRuletheWorld]

I can be long-winded as well, but I do actively try to not sound condescending while I carry-on about whatever it is I am talking about. It happens, I get it. I honestly thought everyone here knew what Farsi was. It isn't like it is an obscure language.

[singsingsing]

1 hour ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

I can be long-winded as well, but I do actively try to not sound condescending while I carry-on about whatever it is I am talking about. It happens, I get it. I honestly thought everyone here knew what Farsi was. It isn't like it is an obscure language.

You're being condescending right now, actually, by expressing your shock that anyone here might not know what Farsi is and where it's widely spoken, and by declaring that you would never be so condescending as to assume that anyone could be ignorant enough to not possess your level of knowledge. But I'm sure that's not what you meant. Just trying to help, since you actively try to not sound condescending.

[Marly]

On 25-10-2017 at 9:59 PM, HarryPotterFan said:

Same. They also said they didn't know how long they'd be captives for, so they wanted to start a family right alway. But who would want to have a child in such conditions, not knowing if you or your family would ever escape? Where it's rare someone will allow your child to see the sun? It just seems like they made a decision to have children born and raised as a prisoners, and no child deserves that. Like what if they stayed for years more, decades even? It boggles the mind. 

 

I agree.
Until I read the interview in the Star, I didn't know that having those children while being held captive was a conscious decision based on the utterly infallible reasoning (*sarcasm*) of 'just wanting to have a large family'.
I can understand that when you're being held captive in a strange country, by people who speak a different language than you,  and who rape you, that you seek comfort, both physically and emotionally, in and from your partner. As I don't think contraceptives were readily available there (given that in those countries women in general don't have easy access to contraceptives) pregnancy is then something that can happen. Would I abstain for 4 years because I don't want to take the risk? I don't know, and I hope to never have to find out. All I want to say is: would this have been the case - which I thought it was until I read the interview - I would have been willing to cut them some slack on the having kids while being held hostage part.
However, seeing that they made the conscious dcision to start having a large family under those circumstances just boggles my mind. I understand that they had no idea how long their captivity would last. But the fact that you don’t know how long you’re going to be in that situation is exactly what should make you hesitant about having as many kids as possible! What if your situation is going to last for 20 years? Then you have willingly brought an innocent person into the world who for the formative years of their life have been nothing more than a prisoner. How can you possibly think that would be a good idea? How can you let your own selfish desire for a large family outweigh the (quality of) life of an innocent human being? The fact that you have always wanted something really bad doesn’t therefore make it the right thing to do! The complete lack of reason in their ‘reasoning’ to have a large family is just stunning to me.
I really hope this family, and especially the kids, gets a lot of help and guidance in adapting to their new situation of no longer being hostages and no longer having to live under fundamentalist religious rule.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Marly

[nastyhobbitses]

On 10/25/2017 at 9:33 AM, samurai_sarah said:

I also don't believe in their humanitarian mission. Logically, what can two backpacking hikers realistically do? So, I'll go with either delusion as do-gooders, or the delusion that it was safe to go on a pilgrimage.

Yeah, I'm really skeptical of their story. Plus the whole thing about Farsi - apparently Haqqani guys speak Pashto, not Farsi, so her claim is kinda like saying that you got kidnapped by French speakers, and you could fully understand them because you speak Romanian. They're in the same language family, but they're not mutually intelligible except for some similar words.

[Howl]

Guys, guys, guys, it is possible that there are at least some bilingual speakers in those areas -- like, people speaking both languages?  Pashto AND Farsi?

 

[nssherlock]

3 hours ago, Howl said:

Guys, guys, guys, it is possible that there are at least some bilingual speakers in those areas -- like, people speaking both languages?  Pashto AND Farsi?

 

and they just happen to be guards???    Far more likely Boyle just made up whatever he wanted Coleman to believe.

[acheronbeach]

On 10/27/2017 at 3:02 AM, Marly said:

As I don't think contraceptives were readily available there (given that in those countries women in general don't have easy access to contraceptives) pregnancy is then something that can happen. 

Islam isn't terribly opposed to contraception (as opposed to the Taliban).  For instance, it's easier to access the pill in Saudi Arabia and Dubai than it is in Canada or the USA.  I've visited several Muslim countries and never had a problem.  That said, they were captives and in rural areas, which would pretty much rule out birth control for anyone, anywhere.  

On another note, I have a lot of family in Lanark County (where Joshua Boyle was raised), and it's hardly a religious, isolated place.  It's an agricultural place, but it's only an hour from Ottawa.  The Mennonites I've met around there use modern amenities.  On CTV, I saw his parents' house, and it's in a very nice, nondescript subdivision in Smiths Falls.  His parents wear regular clothes.  There's nothing I've seen to suggest he's some isolated, damaged child of extremist Christians.  This is a man whose behaviour does not reflect what he says, and sends up red flags about his beliefs about radical Islam.  

He's demonstrably dangerous; to us, to his wife, to those poor children he produced.  

[AtlanticTug]

There are really only two possibilities here.

Either the story doesn't add up and there are more sinister things happening in the background.

Or these two are utter and complete fucking morons.