Jinger 32: Light into the Darkness According to Jeremy

[apandaaries]

28 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

The Mormon goal is to baptize everyone who has ever died. I actually kind of like that Mormons want to "save" everyone, unlike many other branches of Christianity that assert that every non-Christian who died, Anne Frank included, is now being tortured horribly in Hell.

Except from what I've read, Mormons believe that the worst of the afterlife is reserved for Mormons who knew the truth while alive, but rejected the religion.  Even then it's not a burning hell, but the "outer darkness," which does sound lonely and is supposed to be miserable, but...again, reserved for Mormons who denied the truth.  Everyone else is just in a lower version of heaven.  Those top level Mormon men are ruling their own planets while their wives are eternally pregnant, and all their offspring just keep ruling the heavens...which is why they need to have so many babies on earth, to ensure that those souls get to live then move on to better places. 

Part of me gets that they think they're the best and offering the best to those departed souls...but most of me is intensely irritated by their hubris.  I learned about the practice through a Jewish ex-boyfriend who was irate about it, as were the rest of his Jewish family and friends.  They saw it as the height of arrogance, and that's difficult to argue.

[Rachel333]

I have a Mormon relative (my mom's cousin or something like that--I've only met them once) so I'm pretty certain that my dead family members have been baptized by proxy by Mormons. It honestly doesn't bother me, personally, since it's a meaningless ceremony to me. I can see both sides there; I understand why Mormons believe this is necessary according to their beliefs and I genuinely don't think they mean any offense, but I also understand why it does upset non-Mormons.

[Audrey2]

11 minutes ago, amandaaries said:

Another horrible way to disrespect the dead.  And while I've heard that they've officially stopped, I've also heard rumors that they've continued on in a quieter fashion, going through ancestral records and "baptizing" living people in the name of the dead.

 The rationalization appears to be that if those souls don't want the benefits of that baptism, they can ignore it...but that's the Mormon side.  Every Jewish person I've met who's discussed this was furious about it, and as an agnostic, if I discovered that my late father had been "baptized" by Mormons, I'd be pissed on his behalf.  He certainly wouldn't have wanted it. 

I'm a practicing mainstream Protesant and I'm really offended by the idea of a baptism I didn't ask for. If someone does this to me, I'll come back and haunt them! Just let them try to find matching socks out of the dryer! Just let them try to order something in a restaurant and get what they order! I'll turn every light red! This haunting could be fun!

[Rachel333]

2 minutes ago, amandaaries said:

Except from what I've read, Mormons believe that the worst of the afterlife is reserved for Mormons who knew the truth while alive, but rejected the religion.  Even then it's not a burning hell, but the "outer darkness," which does sound lonely and is supposed to be miserable, but...again, reserved for Mormons who denied the truth.  Everyone else is just in a lower version of heaven.  Those top level Mormon men are ruling their own planets while their wives are eternally pregnant, and all their offspring just keep ruling the heavens...which is why they need to have so many babies on earth, to ensure that those souls get to live then move on to better places. 

Part of me gets that they think they're the best and offering the best to those departed souls...but most of me is intensely irritated by their hubris.  I learned about the practice through an ex-Jewish boyfriend who was irate about it, as were the rest of his Jewish family and friends.  They saw it as the height of arrogance, and that's difficult to argue.

Most explanations I've heard of Outer Darkness say that it's very difficult to get to and that you would basically have to see Jesus in person and then reject him. Obviously plenty of people have more liberal interpretations of who ends up there, though. In any case, they don't believe that non-Mormons are going to Hell, which to me is kind of refreshing given that most people I know do believe non-believers are going to be tortured in Hell for eternity.

I know someone who recently posted that their cousin, who had lead a miserable life of drug addiction, had died. He said, "I wish I could say his suffering has ended, but according to the Bible it has only just begun." That's such a miserable thing to believe.

[apandaaries]

3 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

Most explanations I've heard of Outer Darkness say that it's very difficult to get to and that you would basically have to see Jesus in person and then reject him. Obviously plenty of people have more liberal interpretations of who ends up there, though. In any case, they don't believe that non-Mormons are going to Hell, which to me is kind of refreshing given that most people I know do believe non-believers are going to be tortured in Hell for eternity.

I know someone who recently posted that their cousin, who had lead a miserable life of drug addiction, had died. He said, "I wish I could say his suffering has ended, but according to the Bible it has only just begun." That's such a miserable thing to believe.

I've read a lot of varying theologies from the LDS/FLDS/offshoots, as I discovered their getaway memoirs in grad school, but had also read an escape memoir from a regular LDS member in high school (my Christian grandma gave me that book so we could discuss how messed up they were). It was an excellent way to procrastinate (lest anyone fret, I also did my reading for class and all my homework).  

But some of those are just beyond extreme.  I have a special attraction to the extra-crazy (hence my FJ membership)...I loved reading about those who believed that men could only reach the highest level of heaven if they had a quorum of wives (7, I believe, was the magic number), how men could hold the priesthood and perform exorcisms, while women could do nothing otherworldly (except have babies, I guess), how men could refuse to bring their wives to heaven, leaving them stuck between the veils for eternity, if those wives had angered them... The polygamy is distinctly FLDS, but the rest, AFAIK, is still part of mainstream Mormonism.  

I always get stuck on the idea of wives who've angered their husbands eternally roaming in the veils... What happens to shitty men who hold the priesthood? They just get to pass by due to penis? While "bad" women wait? But I suppose that overall, their idea of the afterlife is still better than a burning hell filled with nonstop suffering. 

[Rachel333]

1 minute ago, amandaaries said:

I've read a lot of varying theologies from the LDS/FLDS/offshoots, as I discovered their getaway memoirs in grad school, but had also read an escape memoir from a regular LDS member in high school (my Christian grandma gave me that book so we could discuss how messed up they were). It was an excellent way to procrastinate (lest anyone fret, I also did my reading for class and all my homework).  

But some of those are just beyond extreme.  I have a special attraction to the extra-crazy (hence my FJ membership)...I loved reading about those who believed that men could only reach the highest level of heaven if they had a quorum of wives (7, I believe, was the magic number), how men could hold the priesthood and perform exorcisms, while women could do nothing otherworldly (except have babies, I guess), how men could refuse to bring their wives to heaven, leaving them stuck between the veils for eternity, if those wives had angered them... The polygamy is distinctly FLDS, but the rest, AFAIK, is still part of mainstream Mormonism.  

I always get stuck on the idea of wives who've angered their husbands eternally roaming in the veils... What happens to shitty men who hold the priesthood? They just get to pass by due to penis? While "bad" women wait? But I suppose that overall, their idea of the afterlife is still better than a burning hell filled with nonstop suffering. 

Mormon theology is definitely really interesting because you can get into all sorts of weird stuff like that. There's also more diversity in Mormon beliefs than a lot of people realize. Even just within LDS church members I've seen beliefs ranging from extreme patriarchy to feminists who worship a Heavenly Mother. (I'm sure you've seen this site if you've read much about Mormonism, but Feminist Mormon Housewives is an interesting read to get a perspective of the beliefs of the more liberal women within the LDS church.)

[VelociRapture]

I’m actually really sorry to interrupt the Mormon discussion for this:

Is anyone else laughing their ass off over this? He’s clearly making a very sweet post for his wife (and that’s a welcome change from Derick “look at the omelet my wifey made” Dillard), but Jeremy is looking straight at the camera instead of at Jinger. It almost gives the appearance that he’s confessing his love for the camera or the photographer. 

[apandaaries]

@Rachel333 I have been keeping up on some of the movements from women within the LDS church. It's interesting. I know many women who've wanted to hold the priesthood have received a lot of pushback about it. It's also intriguing to see how the religion is evolving with time.  Joseph Smith was seriously scandalous with his polygamy, including secretly marrying wives of his followers when they were away.  http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=1733664&itype=CMSID One thing I do like about the LDS, from an observer's standpoint, is to watch how a religion can and will evolve according to its surroundings...and what happens when governments interfere with church mandates (in their case, that meant heading to Mexico and Canada to practice polygamy, or going underground in the US).  I find it quite fascinating to watch a baby religion* as it grows up. 
*Relatively speaking.
ETA: This is an oddly perfect thread title for today's drift.

Also, Jeremy's hand in the pocket -- anyone else read that that kind of hand position in the pocket for dudes is body language for, "check out this package, folks"? Or in general, a sense of superiority?  Yeah, it's just a picture, but he is staring at the camera (instead of at Baaaabe) and in general, does comport himself with an arrogant air...

[HarleyQuinn]

That photo looks like an advertisement so I added a little something to make the intent a bit more clear:

[Georgiana]

I didn't see the account this was posted under and COMPLETELY thought that it was JINGER posting, which would have been cute.  But with this picture, it looks like the caption should say:

Quote

I love you ME more than I have ever found a way to say.  Oh, and it's nice that you love me too, I guess.  

 

[Jenn The Heathen]

This topic is hot, thought the Jinjers were preggo...

[justoneoftwo]

29 minutes ago, amandaaries said:

I've read a lot of varying theologies from the LDS/FLDS/offshoots, as I discovered their getaway memoirs in grad school, but had also read an escape memoir from a regular LDS member in high school (my Christian grandma gave me that book so we could discuss how messed up they were). It was an excellent way to procrastinate (lest anyone fret, I also did my reading for class and all my homework).  

But some of those are just beyond extreme.  I have a special attraction to the extra-crazy (hence my FJ membership)...I loved reading about those who believed that men could only reach the highest level of heaven if they had a quorum of wives (7, I believe, was the magic number), how men could hold the priesthood and perform exorcisms, while women could do nothing otherworldly (except have babies, I guess), how men could refuse to bring their wives to heaven, leaving them stuck between the veils for eternity, if those wives had angered them... The polygamy is distinctly FLDS, but the rest, AFAIK, is still part of mainstream Mormonism.  

I always get stuck on the idea of wives who've angered their husbands eternally roaming in the veils... What happens to shitty men who hold the priesthood? They just get to pass by due to penis? While "bad" women wait? But I suppose that overall, their idea of the afterlife is still better than a burning hell filled with nonstop suffering. 

FYI its 3 wives.  Mormons are only supposed to do baptisms and weddings for the dead of family members who are in the church.  Thats why they are so into family history.  In theory they also "seal" dead to their families, and even have dead members gain extra wives (this is not generally done anymore) by marrying them to other dead people.  This lets mainstream mormons have their 3 wives, even though they won't on earth.  (Some may reject this part, I don't know).  

Supposedly the people who were baptizing the victims of genocides were excommunicated, as you need a living family member to request it.  They are concerned about those who will not have any living descendants in the end times to have them baptized.  

Anyway, this is just what I've learned discussing it with LDS members in Utah. YMMV

[apandaaries]

22 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

FYI its 3 wives.  Mormons are only supposed to do baptisms and weddings for the dead of family members who are in the church.  Thats why they are so into family history.  In theory they also "seal" dead to their families, and even have dead members gain extra wives (this is not generally done anymore) by marrying them to other dead people.  This lets mainstream mormons have their 3 wives, even though they won't on earth.  (Some may reject this part, I don't know).  

Supposedly the people who were baptizing the victims of genocides were excommunicated, as you need a living family member to request it.  They are concerned about those who will not have any living descendants in the end times to have them baptized.  

Anyway, this is just what I've learned discussing it with LDS members in Utah. YMMV

The part about the quorum actually varies according to who is interpreting it (ie, which "prophet" you're following -- personally, not into living prophets, so...).  I just checked some of my collection of memoirs. Irene Spencer, who was part of LeBaron cult that was in Mexico and Central America AND the US (and were neighbors to the Romneys in Mexico!), was one of many wives and their LDS-offshoot believed 7 to be the magic number.  Church of the Firstborn, folks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Firstborn_(LeBaron_order)  which also led to targeted killings of rivals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ervil_LeBaron

And the part about only baptizing those with family members...again, wide variations.  Huge.  I'd take that "supposedly" with a grain of salt, as they do think they're on the one and only right track...why not save a soul or two along the way, and have them join the one truth path?  I mean, I'm open to documented evidence of excommunication happening, but from the rumors I've heard (including my ex's cousin and husband, who converted to LDS), this practice still continues, but quietly. And according to rumors from my Jewish friends, there's still some suspicious stuff happening (though I have no evidence of that -- just dueling rumors, I guess, so perhaps a grain of salt there, too). 

ETA: Some minor research reveals that in the 90's, the LDS church was supposed to have agreed to stop the practice, but in 2012, it was discovered that they had not.  Perhaps they've stopped now, but IDK, and their record for truth & honesty is less than stellar: http://time.com/4722056/mormon-henry-eyring-dead-baptism/

[Beermeet]

23 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I’m actually really sorry to interrupt the Mormon discussion for this:

He's clearly means ME! 

[Fundie Bunny]

Okay, all í can think when i see that Picture is "lifetime movie" in which the wife doesn't end well 

[ShesCrafty]

In general, I couldn’t care less what happens after I die or what type of memorial service or funeral may be held for me (whatever would bring comfort to my loved ones is a-ok with me). But for some reason, the Mormon practice of baptizing the dead irritates the hell out of me. It’s just so blatantly arrogant. Ugh. 

[justoneoftwo]

13 minutes ago, ShesCrafty said:

In general, I couldn’t care less what happens after I die or what type of memorial service or funeral may be held for me (whatever would bring comfort to my loved ones is a-ok with me). But for some reason, the Mormon practice of baptizing the dead irritates the hell out of me. It’s just so blatantly arrogant. Ugh. 

It is, and having debates about it can get really interesting.  I personally loved a friend of mine asking how I could be insulted because I didn't think it was real.  He compared it to him having an imaginary tea party with me, without my knowledge.  I can't get over how weird it is to compare something you believe is so holy and important to an imaginary tea party.  

 

24 minutes ago, amandaaries said:

The part about the quorum actually varies according to who is interpreting it (ie, which "prophet" you're following -- personally, not into living prophets, so...).  

And the part about only baptizing those with family members...again, wide variations.  Huge.

I didn't know it varied that much, thanks for the information.  And yes, I know that we should not believe their claims.  For such a centralized religion its amazing to me how much variation there is.  

[apandaaries]

3 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

I didn't know it varied that much, thanks for the information.  And yes, I know that we should not believe their claims.  For such a centralized religion its amazing to me how much variation there is.  

Truly.  I went to Israel twice in the early aughts, and people were still really pissed off about the baptism by proxy thing.  And according to Time Magazine, rightfully so, since not only had the Mormons promised to stop baptizing Holocaust victims and others, but the LDS just kept barreling along anyway, baptizing whoever they could.  I know my ex's cousin occasionally posts about baptisms by proxy (whether dead relatives or others, IDK -- I do know she spends quite a bit of time researching ancestry); her info is friends only and she's getting quieter about that, but I still find it quite suspicious. 

[Rachel333]

4 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

It is, and having debates about it can get really interesting.  I personally loved a friend of mine asking how I could be insulted because I didn't think it was real.  He compared it to him having an imaginary tea party with me, without my knowledge.  I can't get over how weird it is to compare something you believe is so holy and important to an imaginary tea party.  

I don't know, from my perspective as someone who doesn't believe in Mormonism, the Mormon rituals don't have any more significance to me than an imaginary tea party, but obviously it's more significant to Mormons than that, though, so if your friend is Mormon I can understand how you would find the comparison strange.

[justoneoftwo]

1 minute ago, Rachel333 said:

I don't know, from my perspective as someone who doesn't believe in Mormonism, the Mormon rituals don't have any more significance to me than an imaginary tea party, but obviously it's more significant to Mormons than that, though, so if your friend is Mormon I can understand how you would find the comparison strange.

Yep he is Mormon.  Thats why it was so odd.  He was arguing that it shouldn't have any significance to me, I was saying it was insulting even if it didn't have an impact.  It was a strange conversation.  

I wouldn't compare rituals in my religion to an imaginary tea party.

[onekidanddone]

3 hours ago, PVMom said:

Same with the guns.    Her whole family, brothers, even her sisters shoot guns.  They are the farthest from gun control.   So does she speak up to him?   When Jeremy gets all anti gun does she say...."Oh well Joy is an amazing shot!",  "My brothers have hunted turkey and deer and we eat the meat"....something?!

I must have missed something, because I didn't know Jer was ant-gun.  As for the anti-LGBTQ preaching, I figure Jing thinks like the rest of the fundies even though she is not so outwardly vocal.

[Georgiana]

For me it is offensive because not only do I not believe in Mormonism, I find it personally offensive.  I'm sorry, but I am NOT descended from some lost, cursed tribe of Israel.  My skin (and the skin of my ancestors) is beautiful and wonderful; it is NOT the result of some curse.  This isn't the goddamn Elder Scrolls.  I'm not some Dunmer/Dark Elf.  Or some Lamanite descendant.

We didn't offend the God(s) by killing Nerevar and using the Heart of Lorkhan, so they changed our skin to mark our fall.  Nor did we plot against Nephi, causing us to be cut off from the God(s) and having our skin changed so as to "not be enticing" to other races.  Take your pick, because neither are how things went down.  (Fun game: which one of those is the storyline of a fantasy game and which one is from the Book of Mormon? And why is it so hard to tell?)

And I know this part of Mormonism is downplayed, but that's not enough for me.  It's there.  So until it gets officially and publicly renounced, I will have NO respect for Mormonism.  Oh, and you also need to publicly apologize for casting us against our will in your little fantasy game of a religion.  

So don't touch me.  Don't touch my family.  Don't touch my ancestors, some of whom DIED for their skin color.  IT ISN'T ABOUT BELIEF, IT'S ABOUT RESPECT.  Don't DISRESPECT my family and our beliefs any more than you already have.  Personally, I would prefer to err on the side of "not ever having to deal with this shit again, here or in the hereafter", so I'm totally down to be sent to your version of hell, provided y'all wont be there.  

[jacduggar]

Once upon a moon, I was a Mormon. I’ve been out of the church for 20 years. 

 

A lot of interpretations of the doctrines and covenants (the book of prophecies bestowed upon prophets) vary place to place. I lived a few places in Utah and went to church for a minute after we moved to michigan, all places practiced the tedious things differently but fundamentally things are the same.

 

Women cannot hold the official priesthood, although there are some offshoot liberal groups who do allow it, things that happened in those churches would not be upheld in the mainstream wards or temples. 

 

The words of wisdom must be followed to the T for a temple recommend. Which means if you want to be married in the eyes of the church, or receive your “endowment” (basically what your name will be in heaven. Don’t worry, it’s not unique, the church uses the same 10 or so names for everyone) you can’t drink coffee or eat on fast days. 

 

Baptizing of the dead does not happen that often. At least, not in any of the wards I was part of. I agree that it seems really creepy, but the only time I’ve ever seen it done is if someone died who was a practicing Mormon but unable to get baptized for whatever reason. It’s not particularly about “saving souls”. Mormons strongly believe that heaven is the afterlife and there will be eternity there, and the only way to get there is through baptism (sidenote-the only way your spouse and kids join you is if you’re sealed in a temple, too. Whether you’re legally married or not.) so often times people will have family baptized post mortem so they can spend eternity with them when everyone dies. It doesn’t make a lot of sense, but it is what it is. 

 

So, Heaven. This is confusing to even me and I practiced Mormonism for over 20 years. Basically there are “levels” of heaven, the highest being the closest to god. There’s a middle heaven where you’re alright, you were LDS, but maybe you smoked or something. Not quite perfect enough for Celestial but close enough. There’s the lowest level for all other Christians who believe in god but aren’t Mormon. “Outer darkness” is essentially purgatory. 

 

**disclaimer** I practiced over 20 years ago and I’m rusty. The rules have probably changed. All wards are different. Etc. 

[socalrules]

Why is Jinger always looking adoringly at Jeremy while he looks straight ahead? It might be more believable if he was actually looking at Jinger. Jeremy comes off as someone who loves the spotlight. 

I think when Jeremy is spouting his nonsense about homosexuality, Catholics or pretty much anyone who doesn’t have his same narrow point of view, Jinger is likely nodding her head and being so proud of her man and his beliefs. Why? Because she likely believes the same thing. Jinger was raised this way, she has no worldly experience and she married a man who believes as she was raised. Where could anyone get the idea Jinger questions anything about Jeremy’s hateful views? No way does she think he is an idiot for his views.

I am trying to understand why everyone bends over backwards trying to find a reason Jinger/Jeremy are anything other than who they show themselves to be and why they, particularly Jinger, don’t actually believe the hate they spew. I have no reason to believe they won’t be spouting his nonesense for years to come. Jinger was raised to follow/obey her husband and Jeremy, who has been out in the normal world, likely has met gays and those of other faiths, and yet chooses to spread hate about homosexuality and those not of his brand of Christianity. 

[Rachel333]

If Mormons had avoided baptizing Holocaust victims from the start I wonder if people would get upset at the idea that Mormons weren't letting Holocaust victims into their version of Heaven. Maybe not; I see little discussion of how millions of Christians believe most Holocaust victims are in Hell while the Nazis who tortured them could have gone to Heaven as long as they believed in Jesus.

Again, it's one of those things where I can see both sides. From a Mormon perspective, it wouldn't seem fair to deny Jewish people a chance at getting to a higher level of Heaven, but from a Jewish perspective I can see how upsetting to would be to have Mormons claim that the Jewish people who were murdered because they were Jewish are now really Mormon, and I certainly think Jewish people have a right to be outraged by that.

@Georgiana Ooh yeah, the racism against Native Americans is a whole other issue with Mormonism, and I agree that it is incredibly offensive.