Jinger 32: Light into the Darkness According to Jeremy

[Furslippers15]

19 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I did see it, and I respectfully disagree. Racism and homophobia are both forms of bigotry, but are not one in the same. It's entirely accurate to say that they often exist alongside each other, though!

Singsingsing, thank you for hearing me out. Your response is kindly worded despite our differing oppinions. This has not always been my experience on forums. We can agree that there is no place for homophobia in this world. 

[Kaylo]

I’m glad someone asked about the Hitchens book - I figured it wasn’t as it seemed at first!

[NakedKnees]

The Amazon reviews of the book go to great lengths to act like it's not a deathbed conversion book. I agree with the above though. If you care about learning about Hitchens, read his actual writings. And also, preferably, writings about atheists not counted among the "four horsemen."

Anyway... anyone else not sure how to feel about Jeremy quoting a beautiful Ben Folds song in his most recent Instagram post? So many feels... Hope he doesn't get his shitty worldview all over "Brick."

[JordynDarby5]

8 hours ago, fluffernutter said:

I live in a conservative area. Loads of churches, one on every corner. People here ask all time time what church we go to. I just say we are Unitarian, and I kid you not no one has asked what that even means. They hear "church" and think oh what a good christian, i can be nice to her! If only they knew I went to a church full of HEATHENS!! 

Now you have me wanting to always answer Church of Heathens when anyone asks me what church I attend. Or maybe it should be the Holy Church of Heathens. The reactions would be fun.

[victoriasponge]

I'm not a huge fan of Hitchens, or Dawkins, or any of that lot. But for goodness sake, Jeremy would find the idea of a book on some Christian favourite of his having a deathbed deconversion (with no evidence to actually suggest this) somewhere along the lines of offensive or propaganda, I'm sure.

If he wants to preach on atheism, or homosexuality, or Islam, or any other 'controversial' topic, he needs to actually talk to the group affected. His strawmen annoy me more than anything. Arguing against your perceived idea of someone without actually engaging with them is intellectually dishonest and frankly beneath us all. Unfortunately, he's reading a book that sounds like it's just one huge strawman (he assumes Hitchens is not an atheist purely because he doesn't fully fit the imposed guidelines the evangelical has put on being an atheist). I'm sure I don't fit the guidelines either. You can be fully intellectual and rational and hold any number of different beliefs, but this form of evangelicalism doesn't allow for it. Only they are right, and everyone knows that deep down, they're just repressing it. Open a book, Jeremy, engage with it - take notes and write arguments for why you disagree - consider all sides of the story... he went to college didn't he?

Oh wait, he doesn't want that. Then he can't pretend he's superior to everyone else, and he might even have to question some of his beliefs. Keep going with the hate-filled rhetoric while pretending to be a hipster friend-to-everyone, it'll convince some people, just not me - someone you'd damn forever if you had the chance (or would argue didn't exist, perhaps).

[Lurky]

I've had a conversation with someone trying to convert me about how I don't really count as an atheist, because my beliefs about I think other people should be treated are in line with Christianity, and my feelings about the natural world etc are really praising God's creation and so on.  If was infuriating!  And as @victoriasponge says, these "oh but you/X can't really be an atheist" would be horrified if I tried to convert them, and told them their beliefs are really atheism.

[SapphireSlytherin]

My current answer to the "church question" is:  STONEHENGE

[QuiverDance]

The last time someone asked me, I said I don’t because I have represented enough religious groups as an insurance defense attorney in lawsuits involving mistreatment of children by church employees or volunteers  that I have grave concerns about the safety of my children in groups of Christians. 

[SongRed7]

On 10/23/2017 at 5:48 PM, Gillyweed said:

n this forum once that one of the crew members from 19 Kids and Counting was gay, and when Michelle found out about it, TLC moved him to another show

Not saying that's not true, but I also heard that might be one of those Duggar myths that live on as "truth" (like Jill wasn't allowed to "help" with one of Anna's sisters when she was pregnant because she wasn't married, that the Duggar's don't pay taxes because they have their house declared as a church, etc....all internet myths)....

[HarleyQuinn]

This is embarrassing but I've never heard of Unitarianism so now I'm reading up on that. Iol

The only experience I've ever had with someone trying to convert me was when I was 14 and this random guy tried really hard to get me and my friends to believe there was no God. It was the most awkward conversation of my life because I was just like "Dude...we're rollerblading. Go away."  He was super mean about it lol

[Carm_88]

Jeremy knows nothing about atheists, the LGBTQ+ community, the Roman Catholic church, or anything else he has sermoninzed against. He's reading books and assuming that it's the same thing as knowing a person who is Roman Catholic or homosexual. No, it's not the same thing because you're not getting their point of view. You're seeing it from your religion. It's not much different than Derick tweeting the bible and being like "Game, set, match Derick Dillard." They both think that they are right but they refuse to see the people they are against as people. 

[SamiKatz]

14 hours ago, llg1234 said:

That book is written by an evangelical author who claims that Hitchens converted to Christianity towards the end of his life. Several people close to him have denounced the book.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/larry-tauntons-the-faith-of-christopher-hitchens-a-betrayal-to-reader-and-subject/486164/

Thanks for setting me straight, I should have done some research on the book before hand.  It's too bad it's not a straight up biography of Hitchens.  Free your mind, and the rest will follow.  

I still might read it, but I wouldn't pay for it, maybe a library get in the future.

 

[nausicaa]

1 hour ago, Carm_88 said:

He's reading books and assuming that it's the same thing as knowing a person who is Roman Catholic or homosexual. No, it's not the same thing because you're not getting their point of view. 

I would give him credit if he were even trying to read books that actually came from these actual communities, like the Qu'ran, Chesterton, Hitchens' essays. But he's purposefully reading books that have been filtered by evangelicals and only argue his side.

It just shows what an intellectual coward he is. I really have no patience for people who are so scared of learning new information because it might unsettle the very delicate foundations of their belief systems.

I've read and exposed myself to far more from "his side" than he's ever read from my side, and yet he's the one who wants to lecture and educate me. Please, spare me. 

[zygote373]

6 hours ago, Lurky said:

I've had a conversation with someone trying to convert me about how I don't really count as an atheist, because my beliefs about I think other people should be treated are in line with Christianity, and my feelings about the natural world etc are really praising God's creation and so on. 

My grandmother has always gone to church, I believe mainly for the community and the charity. But she is at least somewhat religious. When my grandfather died, it was very important to her to have the funeral in her church. (We never got a straight answer from her about whether Grandpa gave permission....)

Anyway, the pastor obviously spoke and said this same kind of thing. That though he may not have ever gone to church, he had a Christian heart because he donated money and cared about giving young people opportunities, etc. 

Um, sure. (No.)

[Lurky]

15 minutes ago, zygote373 said:

Anyway, the pastor obviously spoke and said this same kind of thing. That though he may not have ever gone to church, he had a Christian heart because he donated money and cared about giving young people opportunities, etc. 

Shit, this exact thing happened when a friend died unexpectedly in a fluke accident.  His parents set up a service for him when he was cremated and the person running the service said the same kind of thing:  that he must have been a believer in God because he was a good person.  I don't think his parents were religious, and I know they knew he wasn't, so it was a really odd and uncomfortable moment

[PVMom]

I wonder how Jinger takes all this.   I know she's been taught to be a good wife but in her head, when Jeremy preaches or discusses his anti views of homosexuality or gun control....does she chime in?   Is she thinking Jeremy is an idiot?  Is she thinking he's wrong biblically speaking?

I'm thinking if she were with Kendra and Joy at the hairdresser.   If Jeremy were there, he'd have something theological to say that's anti homosexual.    Jinger would be just as polite as the other girls and get her hair done without confronting or preaching and it not being a big deal, I think.    But what would she think if Jeremy started up with that?

Same with the guns.    Her whole family, brothers, even her sisters shoot guns.  They are the farthest from gun control.   So does she speak up to him?   When Jeremy gets all anti gun does she say...."Oh well Joy is an amazing shot!",  "My brothers have hunted turkey and deer and we eat the meat"....something?!   I'm so curious how those dynamics go down with her.   

I'm still confused as to why Jinger is happy in Laredo.    I know Jeremy doesn't want to be back in AK very much but Jinger can't feel the same way.   She's too close to her sisters, she has no skills outside the home.   She's a caregiver.   How is she happy in Laredo all day?   And does she defend her own thoughts?   I don't get this couple at all.

[justoneoftwo]

Is she close with her sisters?  She seems uninterested in taking care of kids and in their topics of conversation.  She never seemed like much of a caregiver either comparatively.  She wanted to be out.  She has said so.  I see no reason she couldn't be happy.  

[apandaaries]

Haven't read Hitchens, and it's been years since I read Darwin...but I do recall Darwin expressing some sincere shock at the direction his discoveries were leading him.  Religious issues with his data were also noted in his writing, and he was concerned about the ramifications of such thoughts.  Obviously he still published everything and by all accounts (except Lady Hope's), he continued to believe the truth of his research and writing.

 Terrible to have people (at least attempt to) rewrite one's thoughts after death, but that does seem to be the inclination of a lot of people out there.  The dead have an awfully difficult time protesting and/or rebutting such ideas. 

[2manyKidzzz]

I don’t recall seeing any accounts of Jinger working in any of the mission type things at Jeremy’s church, as in pregnancy, or charity for families or other things.

Anyone remember that.....so what DOES she really do with her time. 

None of the Duggar daughters EVER work outside the home. No job, nuthin.

[Lurky]

1 hour ago, PVMom said:

I'm thinking if she were with Kendra and Joy at the hairdresser.   If Jeremy were there, he'd have something theological to say that's anti homosexual.    Jinger would be just as polite as the other girls and get her hair done without confronting or preaching and it not being a big deal, I think.    But what would she think if Jeremy started up with that?

Actually, I don't know if he is the type to say something to someone's face.  A lot of Fundies play the big man on the internet who says a lot behind the screen, but in real life, when they're talking to another pastor who isn't hateful, or to an actual LGB person, they're completely normal, and then go home and blog all the things they didn't dare say to their faces. 

 

[Rachel333]

I'm an atheist from a family of very devout Christians. I haven't ever actually told my parents that I'm an atheist, but they found books about atheism in my room once and have asked me why I "turned my back on God." My mom has told me that she believes I'll come back to Christianity and end up in Heaven with her after all. With anyone else it would bother me that they're undermining my beliefs that way (I absolutely wouldn't tell a Christian that I think they're eventually going to end up an atheist once they see the truth) but I don't want my parent to have to live with the belief that I will be tortured in Hell for eternity so I'm okay with them telling themselves whatever they need to believe.

This Hitchens book, however, is incredibly offensive. Reading that Atlantic article it sounds like the author of that book is really full of himself, too.

Quote

It’s Taunton who intuits that one of Taunton’s preachments had an effect on Christopher “so profound that I knew that something in his thinking had changed in that instant.”

That's absurd. And then there are all the allegations that atheists who don't convert to Christianity and anyone who disagrees with Taunton's assessment of Hitchens's beliefs are simply lacking in courage.

It is indeed very difficult to acknowledge that the beliefs you have held for a lifetime are wrong and to tell a community based on those beliefs that you no longer agree with them. Many atheists know that particularly well because they have been through it. From what I read in that article, Tarunton doesn't seem to realize that his explanation of why it would take courage for an atheist to renounce atheism applies very much to Christianity as well. Probably more so, given that atheists think non-atheists are, for the most part, merely wrong, while to many Christians leaving Christianity often means that someone is rejecting God and endangering the fate of their soul for eternity.

When I lived in Arkansas I was part of a secular student alliance group. Most members came from very religious families and the process of leaving their faith was genuinely traumatic for a lot of people. Many had stories of losing all their friends once their friends found out they were no longer Christian. Because of those experiences we wanted to be clear that we wouldn't treat anyone in the group like that if they decided they were no longer atheist.

Taunton definitely has a stereotype of atheists in mind, and I like this part of the article:

Quote

The second line of argument deployed by Taunton is to construct Taunton’s own definition of logically consistent atheism—then note that Hitchens did not agree with every aspect of this Taunton-built definition—and finally conclude that Hitchens could not really be an atheist. After all, a real atheist must agree with Peter Singer that a human baby is of no greater moral significance than a piglet. Since Hitchens did not agree with Singer, Hitchens must be moving toward agreement with Taunton.

But the second argument can be—and if Hitchens were alive, surely would be—turned exactly backwards: Draw one’s own personal caricature of Christian practice, complete with Inquisitions and burnings at the stake, notice divergences between that caricature and the actual views of an actual person, and thereby conclude that the person wasn’t “really” a Christian—was in fact moving toward unbelief, despite all his or her protestations to the contrary.

(As an aside, typing "Taunton" so much makes me think of the French tongue twister, "Si ton tonton tond ton tonton, ton tonton tondu sera," meaning "If your uncle shaves your uncle, your uncle will be shaved." )

[NakedKnees]

5 minutes ago, Lurky said:

Actually, I don't know if he is the type to say something to someone's face.  A lot of Fundies play the big man on the internet who says a lot behind the screen, but in real life, when they're talking to another pastor who isn't hateful, or to an actual LGB person, they're completely normal, and then go home and blog all the things they didn't dare say to their faces. 

Agreed. There are also a fair amount of fundies/homophobic Christians who will act loving and kind (superficially) to LGBT+ people... after all, they LOVE gay people, and that's why they're worried about their sin and souls. Sometimes they'll even be extra nice, if they're the type to try to win souls. Lifestyle-wise, it's not necessarily all explicit vitriol all the time.

1 hour ago, amandaaries said:

 Terrible to have people (at least attempt to) rewrite one's thoughts after death, but that does seem to be the inclination of a lot of people out there.  The dead have an awfully difficult time protesting and/or rebutting such ideas. 

This makes me so sad. It reminds me of the controversy surrounding the Mormon church a few years ago when word got out that they were baptizing dead historical figures such as Anne Frank.

[Rachel333]

2 minutes ago, NakedKnees said:

This makes me so sad. It reminds me of the controversy surrounding the Mormon church a few years ago when word got out that they were baptizing dead historical figures such as Anne Frank.

At least Mormons say that the dead have a choice whether to accept or reject the baptism, though they don't actually believe that the dead will reject baptism now that they can see that they need it.

The Mormon goal is to baptize everyone who has ever died. I actually kind of like that Mormons want to "save" everyone, unlike many other branches of Christianity that assert that every non-Christian who died, Anne Frank included, is now being tortured horribly in Hell.

I remember reading an internet debate years ago between two Christians about some theological matter, and one of them was quoting C.S. Lewis to support his argument. The other simply asserted that Lewis now actually agrees with the other side of the argument now that Lewis is in Heaven and knows the truth. 

[apandaaries]

8 minutes ago, NakedKnees said:

This makes me so sad. It reminds me of the controversy surrounding the Mormon church a few years ago when word got out that they were baptizing dead historical figures such as Anne Frank.

Another horrible way to disrespect the dead.  And while I've heard that they've officially stopped, I've also heard rumors that they've continued on in a quieter fashion, going through ancestral records and "baptizing" living people in the name of the dead.

 The rationalization appears to be that if those souls don't want the benefits of that baptism, they can ignore it...but that's the Mormon side.  Every Jewish person I've met who's discussed this was furious about it, and as an agnostic, if I discovered that my late father had been "baptized" by Mormons, I'd be pissed on his behalf.  He certainly wouldn't have wanted it. 

[Lurky]

@Rachel333 I think it's so telling that Taunton seems to assume that all atheists have to follow the same dogma, or they're actually Christians after all.  I'd love to know more about this imaginary creed he believes atheists have signed up to!  

But it's like the opposite of how a lot of Fundagelicals see Christianity, where if another person believes in 9 out of 10 of the same things as they do, but disagrees on something like equal marriage or abortion, that aren't even in the Bible, they're Not A Real Christian.