Duggars by the Dozen 31: Dicky Duggars Do Damage

[candygirl200413]

Making a skeleton out of -tips on black paper! ( I think the skull was used with a white crayon?)

[Fascinated]

I’ve been traveling and just caught up here. And I’m going to get royally shit on, I think.  But I’d like to ask why we can’t express our disagreements in a more polite manner.  We have so, so many people who hate us.  And I really hate that we are reviled by so many people. Many of whom came here expecting to engage in discourse on a given subject. And they are not permitted to express what is deemed to be the ‘wrong’ opinion.  These last few pages are embarrassing to me.   If one (or two) of our members state an unpopular opinion, why can’t we put forth our objections without resorting to vitriol towards the poster?  We have driven so many people away over the years and I feel like a forum such as FJ, made up of very intelligent and compassionate people, should be a place where open discussion is valued.  I think it causes many members to refrain from commenting or expressing their opinions. And everyone’s opinion is, and should be, valid.

Another problem I have is with the discussion about Josh’s victims.  I do feel that they should not have been ‘outed’ and that they are justified in seeking redress.  But I wonder, sometimes, if we project our own sensibilities on to them. We do not really know how they feel about this situation. I feel like we are taking away their agency to acknowledge (or not) their feelings about this abuse.  Yes, they are victims of abuse. But, we do not know what the lasting effects have been, and I think we almost demand that they react in a way that we deem appropriate.  

I love this place.  I don’t want to be ashamed to be a member.  I wish we could engage in polite discussions, even (and especially!) when the topic is as sensitive as this one is.  

We are all for victims’ rights, as we should be.  But, we cannot, and should not, dictate how those victims should feel.  

[justoneoftwo]

I must say that normally FJ is very good about disagreements and being polite.  Its one of the things I love about it, I can learn from others who I disagree with and sometimes they change my mind.  It's rare that something like the above happens.

[choralcrusader8613]

2 minutes ago, Fascinated said:

We are all for victims’ rights, as we should be.  But, we cannot, and should not, dictate how those victims should feel.  

We're not dictating how any victims should feel. I'm a big proponent of "Feelings aren't right or wrong. They just are." But one's actions are a different story. There's plenty of stuff on FJ I take a step back from for one reason or another due to personal feelings or experiences.

Also (mod-hat off) the opinions weren't so much unpopular to me as they were offensive. Josh's victims were victims, and both POVs from the posters we're discussing were minimizing the trauma that they suffered, imho.

[singsingsing]

25 minutes ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

Also (mod-hat off) the opinions weren't so much unpopular to me as they were offensive. Josh's victims were victims, and both POVs from the posters we're discussing were minimizing the trauma that they suffered, imho.

That's also how I felt. It's entirely possible that one, more, or all of Josh's victims do not feel traumatized by his abuse, and if that were the case, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with it. But saying that they don't 'deserve' compensation, or that they obviously weren't that badly abused, or obviously didn't experience trauma, because of the way they act or speak now, is wrong and (in my opinion) harmful to victims of abuse in general. It suggests that they have to act, think, and/or feel the 'right' way in order to a) have the right to justice or compensation, and b) be believed and taken seriously.

[Jess]

47 minutes ago, Fascinated said:

I’ve been traveling and just caught up here. And I’m going to get royally shit on, I think.  But I’d like to ask why we can’t express our disagreements in a more polite manner.  We have so, so many people who hate us.  And I really hate that we are reviled by so many people. Many of whom came here expecting to engage in discourse on a given subject. And they are not permitted to express what is deemed to be the ‘wrong’ opinion.  These last few pages are embarrassing to me.   If one (or two) of our members state an unpopular opinion, why can’t we put forth our objections without resorting to vitriol towards the poster?  We have driven so many people away over the years and I feel like a forum such as FJ, made up of very intelligent and compassionate people, should be a place where open discussion is valued.  I think it causes many members to refrain from commenting or expressing their opinions. And everyone’s opinion is, and should be, valid.

Just FYI if you weren't reading in time that poster was putting out long posts and then editing posts removing paragraphs of content before the editing time was up. I think reading the edited versions doesn't give the whole picture.

[VelociRapture]

@FascinatedAnd I’m ashamed to be a member when people sit back and allow others to victim blame or play the Suffering Olympics. While I was disgusted with the direction the discussion was taking, I am very glad that so many people spoke up against them. FJ is better than that.

There is a big difference between respectfully participating in debate and making wildly offensive statements. The posters in question crossed a big line for a lot of us here and I feel they honestly deserved the pushback they got. You are, of course, free to feel otherwise (and I thank you for reintroducing the topic respectfully and civilly as well.)

If anyone was dictating how the sisters should feel, it was the two posters in question. Many posters arguing against them were pointing out how differently victims can respond to the same trauma and how unfair it is to judge the Duggar sisters for that fact alone. 

1 minute ago, Jess said:

Just FYI if you weren't reading in time that poster was putting out long posts and then editing posts removing paragraphs of content before the editing time was up. I think reading the edited versions doesn't give the whole picture.

Exactly this. It’s almost a form of gaslighting, though I don’t know if the editing was intended to have that effect or not. 

[Fascinated]

19 minutes ago, Jess said:

Just FYI if you weren't reading in time that poster was putting out long posts and then editing posts removing paragraphs of content before the editing time was up. I think reading the edited versions doesn't give the whole picture.

Thank you. I did not read the thread in real time. I maintain, however, that we, as a group, should be able to state our objections without resorting to vitriol.  I understand if that is an unpopular opinion but I honestly feel this way. I would prefer that we didn’t drive away so many people who register thinking that they will have something valuable to contribute. We always maintain that we are not a hive vagina, but sometimes it feels like we are.

All I’m really asking is that we don’t pile on posters who have dissenting opinions.  Even if we think their comments are misguided (as this is probably considered to be), let’s converse as the intelligent, thoughtful adults that we are.  Let’s state our case politely and reasonably and engage in respectful discussion.   I am, for the most part, proud of FJ.  I don’t know of a site that has such a knowledgeable membership. You may not feel the same way, but it bothers me that we are hated all over the internet.    

[singsingsing]

FYI, I don't like the tone of my own responses sometimes. Especially when it comes to the gossipy stuff that (in my opinion) is ridiculous and has been debunked, or people throwing around their opinions like their gut feeling about something has some kind of authority. I fully admit that's a big pet peeve of mine, but often I'll snap out some reply, maybe feeling a tad impatient but far from angry or even really annoyed, and yet my response ends up coming across way harsher than I meant it to, because, well, that's internet communication for you. So I'd like to be more mindful of how I'm expressing myself here and remember that I'm speaking to actual people, not text emanating from avatars.

All that said, I do think there were a couple of posters who somewhat crossed the line in their responses to Fluffy14, especially as things got heated - but overall, Fluffy14 was way out of line, was making some really judgemental and problematic statements, and I'm really glad that multiple people called her out on it and pointed out why the things she was saying were so wrong. 

[SamiKatz]

8 minutes ago, Fascinated said:

Thank you. I did not read the thread in real time. I maintain, however, that we, as a group, should be able to state our objections without resorting to vitriol.  I understand if that is an unpopular opinion but I honestly feel this way. I would prefer that we didn’t drive away so many people who register thinking that they will have something valuable to contribute. We always maintain that we are not a hive vagina, but sometimes it feels like we are.

All I’m really asking is that we don’t pile on posters who have dissenting opinions.  Even if we think their comments are misguided (as this is probably considered to be), let’s converse as the intelligent, thoughtful adults that we are.  Let’s state our case politely and reasonably and engage in respectful discussion.   I am, for the most part, proud of FJ.  I don’t know of a site that has such a knowledgeable membership. You may not feel the same way, but it bothers me that we are hated all over the internet.    

You know, I had a really nice, very polite rebuttal typed out but I decided to erase it all and just say this:

Sometimes people should be called out for their shit. 

Victim blaming is wrong.  Trying to dictate how a victim of abuse SHOULD be acting afterwards in order to be seen as a "true" victim is wrong.  Trying to dismiss the "level" of abuse because you may have been subject to worse abuse is wrong.

My opinion only, of course.

 

 

[VelociRapture]

33 minutes ago, Fascinated said:

Thank you. I did not read the thread in real time. I maintain, however, that we, as a group, should be able to state our objections without resorting to vitriol.  I understand if that is an unpopular opinion but I honestly feel this way. I would prefer that we didn’t drive away so many people who register thinking that they will have something valuable to contribute. We always maintain that we are not a hive vagina, but sometimes it feels like we are.

All I’m really asking is that we don’t pile on posters who have dissenting opinions.  Even if we think their comments are misguided (as this is probably considered to be), let’s converse as the intelligent, thoughtful adults that we are.  Let’s state our case politely and reasonably and engage in respectful discussion.   I am, for the most part, proud of FJ.  I don’t know of a site that has such a knowledgeable membership. You may not feel the same way, but it bothers me that we are hated all over the internet.    

I respect your opinion and on many topics we discuss here I’d agree. But this discussion was very, very different. Certain posters may have been out of line, but not without a lot of baiting and just cause - some of the people you may be thinking of are either survivors of sexual assault or have very close loved ones who are survivors. Reading through after the editing simply cannot give you an accurate picture of what was actually happening or why that level of vitriol was tossed around.

I like to think I’m fairly level headed and civil in most of my responses. It takes something truly special for me to snap. But sometimes people need to be called out, sometimes they deserve a pile on, and in my honest opinion both of those were absolutely true this time. 

I don’t like that we’re hated on other sites. I don’t like that some posters don’t feel comfortable posting at times. But I am far more comfortable with both those things than I am with allowing this site to become a cesspool for victim blaming and falsehoods. The second those things start to be accepted or allowed, I’m out for good.

[backyard sylph]

9 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Reading through after the editing simply cannot give you an accurate picture of what was actually happening or why that level of vitriol was tossed around.

I found it somewhat shocking. I mean, the unedited monologues, not really the reactions.

[Fascinated]

11 minutes ago, SamiKatz said:

You know, I had a really nice, very polite rebuttal typed out but I decided to erase it all and just say this:

Sometimes people should be called out for their shit. 

Victim blaming is wrong.  Trying to dictate how a victim of abuse SHOULD be acting afterwards in order to be seen as a "true" victim is wrong.  Trying to dismiss the "level" of abuse because you may have been subject to worse abuse is wrong.

My opinion only, of course.

 

 

I totally agree. I really do. And I wasn’t condoning that. But I believe that, as a group, we are, in fact, actually dictating how victims of abuse should behave. Those victims being the Duggar sisters.  I hope my comments didn’t imply that I condone victim blaming. If we discuss these issues rationally I feel like we can reach a better understanding of all points of view.  Josh’s victims haven’t yet commented here so we do not know unequivocally how they actually feel.  

,

[Fascinated]

@VelociRapture, you are the personification of calm and well reasoned responses, and I respect and like you very much. And, again, maybe I did miss something having not read unedited posts, but I stand by my assertion that we absolutely are hated in so many corners of the internet and that it bothers me. It disturbs me that many do not appreciate the wealth of experience and knowledge on this board. Frankly, they think we are a bunch of assholes. I only wish that, when we have disagreements or when people need to be called out, that we do it with maturity and respect.

 

 

[VelociRapture]

10 minutes ago, Fascinated said:

@VelociRapture, you are the personification of calm and well reasoned responses, and I respect and like you very much. And, again, maybe I did miss something having not read unedited posts, but I stand by my assertion that we absolutely are hated in so many corners of the internet and that it bothers me. It disturbs me that many do not appreciate the wealth of experience and knowledge on this board. Frankly, they think we are a bunch of assholes. I only wish that, when we have disagreements or when people need to be called out, that we do it with maturity and respect.

 

 

I’ll respectfully agree to disagree in this one specific instance. The posts in question were extremely disturbing to me. I had trouble controlling my responses and I’m not even a victim of sexual assault. I can only imagine how horrible it must have been for survivors or the loved ones of survivors to have to read through all of that in real time. It must have been absolutely horrific and I honestly can’t blame anyone for lashing out.

I do see your point though. We have a vast wealth of knowledge here and I do think it would be great if more people were able to remain civil on topics that are more BEC (like Joy’s wedding discussions for example) since that could help people feel more comfortable participating.

[SilverBeach]

Posters that present as emotional vampires, while stretching the boundaries of believability, and putting forth very objectionable statements (such as the Duggars weren't penetrated, so what's the big deal) invite strongly negative reactions. I totally agree with @VelociRapturethat you had to read the vile posts in real time to understand the reaction to them. Several of those posts have been heavily edited. This exchange was far more than just a difference of opinion. 

Personally, I don't give a rats ass about folks hating FJ because its stupid to hate a site with thousands of members and topics because you don't like a few of them.

Some of the reactions may have been intense but I don't think they were inappropriate.

I agree that absent the reprehensible content presented in this topic, there is no need for rudeness, condescension, or disrespect such as what happened in the discussion about calculating pregnancy duration. Some of us had no experience with including time before fertilization in the calculation, my ob way back when gave me a due date and never told me how many weeks I was in.

We caught hell in that thread, and were practically called stupid by other members.

There's a thread for FJ culture, that might be a good place for some of this discussion.

[Fascinated]

I respect your stance, @VelociRapture,  And it’s not that I disagree with your point about some of the comments here. What I’m trying, and no doubt failing, to convey, is  that there are thousands of people who, having read here, have felt compelled to register and then post comments on a myriad of subjects.  Often others will disagree with those comments. Not just in the Duggar threads, but all over this forum. And what happens if one’s thoughts are not in keeping with the majority?  They are excoriated and downvoted.

Everyone has a right to their opinion. I’m just saying that we should allow people their opinions and, when we disagree, do so with respect.  I do not think it is productive to drive away members who have a dissenting opinion.  That is, after all, what makes it a discussion.

@SilverBeach, you are someone whom I respect also.  I, however, do give a rats ass about our reputation.  It bothers me immensely that so many people come here, get totally shit on, and leave with a bitter taste in their mouths. I don’t want to be a part of an exclusive forum where everyone must agree. We all have different experiences and perspectives, and they are all valid. 

 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

@Fascinated I vehemently disagree with the "people can't express their opinions". People can basically spew the shit they want (as long as it doesn't break the rules) here, but as we repeat ad nauseam to fundies and alt righters, freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of the shitty things you choose to say.

If this is a deterrent for victim blamers, abuse diminishers and random abuse apologisers then I'm  totes fine with it.

Feelings are always valid, opinions are not. Not all opinions are created equal. As we often try to explain to the likes of Lori and Ken, they have a right to their hateful opinions, they have the right to plaster them all over the internet too, but they have no right to not be called out.

As for the tone that you think was over the top, I completely disagree. I don't think that calling an asshole the person who says "he didn't actually penetrate them right?" would be disproportionate. Ymmv of course.

I care zero for what people on other websites think of us. If they don't have the ability to come here, see for themselves and see the wealth of knowledge and empathy expressed on this forum how are they supposed to peruse and appreciate it?

[Coconut Flan]

32 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

There's a thread for FJ culture, that might be a good place for some of this discussion.

Indeed that is true for quite a bit of the discussion.  Personally I have few to no concerns about how the world at large views FJ because I doubt much of the world at large knows we exist.  Most of the hate for FJ that I have seen has come from a few disgruntled souls who did not fit in well here from the beginning of their tenure.

[SilverBeach]

@Fascinated, I did not understand you to be talking about FJ members/former members not liking FJ. I though you meant more of a general reputation. 

I have felt shat upon myself a few times, I even started a thread to talk about FJ eating their own and being uncivil for no reason. I take breaks when needed, but I stay because the good far outweighs the bad. I won't let myself be run off even if I felt unfairly piled on. But that's just me, I'm stubborn like that.

I've seen many polite differences of opinions. Indeed , it would be boring as hell if this was really a hive mind. But, I disagree that everything is valid. Racist shit? Nope. Non-penetrative abuse isn't really abuse (that's what happened to me, BTW)? Nope. Fake shit (Ruth, Burris)? Nope.

So I agree that exclusivity is not good and I would not participate in an echo chamber. Nor would I participate where ugly vile shit was not called out full stop.

It will probably always take a bit of thick skin to stay on this board. It's still a lot nicer here than it used to be.

[Ms Tilly]

3 hours ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

We're not dictating how any victims should feel. I'm a big proponent of "Feelings aren't right or wrong. They just are." But one's actions are a different story. There's plenty of stuff on FJ I take a step back from for one reason or another due to personal feelings or experiences.

Also (mod-hat off) the opinions weren't so much unpopular to me as they were offensive. Josh's victims were victims, and both POVs from the posters we're discussing were minimizing the trauma that they suffered, imho.

And yet everyone minimized the posters' trauma. 

Look, fluffy was very obviously crying out for help, whether it is or is not appropriate in this forum is up for debate BUT everyone just shut her out. Not only shut her out, notified to 'fuck off', condescendingly told 'bless your heart' and blatantly name-called an asshole. 

I mean, what the ever loving fuck?! Completely unnecessary, IMO. 

 

[SassyPants]

1 minute ago, Ms Tilly said:

And yet everyone minimized the posters' trauma. 

Look, fluffy was very obviously crying out for help, whether it is or is not appropriate in this forum is up for debate BUT everyone just shut her out. Not only shut her out, notified to 'fuck off', condescendingly told 'bless your heart' and blatantly name-called an asshole. 

I mean, what the ever loving fuck?! Completely unnecessary, IMO. 

 

I am very, very uncomfortable with "the pile on," especially when it's a newer to the community member, which it generally seems to be- we are better than that.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

31 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

@Fascinated I vehemently disagree with the "people can't express their opinions". People can basically spew the shit they want (as long as it doesn't break the rules) here, but as we repeat ad nauseam to fundies and alt righters, freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of the shitty things you choose to say.

If this is a deterrent for victim blamers, abuse diminishers and random abuse apologisers then I'm  totes fine with it.

Feelings are always valid, opinions are not. Not all opinions are created equal. As we often try to explain to the likes of Lori and Ken, they have a right to their hateful opinions, they have the right to plaster them all over the internet too, but they have no right to not be called out.

As for the tone that you think was over the top, I completely disagree. I don't think that calling an asshole the person who says "he didn't actually penetrate them right?" would be disproportionate. Ymmv of course.

I care zero for what people on other websites think of us. If they don't have the ability to come here, see for themselves and see the wealth of knowledge and empathy expressed on this forum how are they supposed to peruse and appreciate it?

Then you maybe chose the wrong case to illustrate your point.

See I may (not really but maybe) agree with you if you were referring at the discussion over if Joystin had or time alone/kisses/sex before marriage or not. That's, imho, a relatively minor point where people's opinions differ wildly. And as much as I find that discussion silly and boring, it isn't harmful.

In this thread's case the opinions expressed by a couple of members were nasty, offensive and harmful to victims. 

Paraphrasing Fluffy, she said she removed content from her posts because she realised how a victim reading here might have felt bad thinking it applied to her/himself, but as long as it's just in the context of the Duggars victims then it was totes okay. Cos apparently Duggars girls are guilty of: being rich, being in a reality show, having given an interview with Megyn Kelly, controlling their narration. Apparently this makes them lesser victims or lesser humans that don't deserve to see their privacy violation considered by a court.

Then now please can you tell me who wants to "dictate how victims of abuse should behave" or feel?

Personally I feel very disturbed when a poster expresses such an hate, disgust and intolerance  towards the Duggars that they don't even recognise them the human rights that would be granted to anyone else. Fj is better than this and if to state this I have to say "fuck you" to a poster, then I'm fine with it and I hope to be in good company.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

40 minutes ago, Ms Tilly said:

And yet everyone minimized the posters' trauma

Quotes for "everyone" please or it didn't happen. Telling her that being a victim herself doesn't give her a pass for judging other victims isn't minimising her trauma.

Telling her that doing the Victimhood Olympics doesn't make sense and is very unhelpful isn't minimising her trauma.

40 minutes ago, Ms Tilly said:

Look, fluffy was very obviously crying out for help, whether it is or is not appropriate in this forum is up for debate

It isn't. FJ doesn't provide support to victims nor is a self help group nor a safe space. It's clearly stated in the guidelines.

40 minutes ago, Ms Tilly said:

Not only shut her out, notified to 'fuck off', condescendingly told 'bless your heart' and blatantly name-called an asshole. 

This didn't happen because she's a victim herself, nor because she needs help. This happened because she felt free to treat other victims as lesser victims just because their last name is Duggar. She accused then of "revictimising themselves", of "controlling their narrative" and so on. Do you think it was fine?

ETA I'd particularly appreciate if you provided examples of how she was shut out. She's under no restriction to post again whatever she likes and she wasn't told to shup up even if she was spewing some hateful shit.

[Fascinated]

3 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I am very, very uncomfortable with "the pile on," especially when it's a newer to the community member, which it generally seems to be- we are better than that.

This is all I’m trying to say. I absolutely agree that the ‘there was no penetration’ was abhorrent. But, I just wish we could convey our disagreements in a more constructive manner. I see that many of you don’t agree. I expected that. It’s why I have a love/hate with this forum. I think we can do better than excoriating those with unpopular opinions. State your case, by all means. We don’t have to be dicks about it. Obviously, we don’t all agree on this.  

@laPapessaGiovanna, my take on the Duggar victims is that they themselves have downplayed the effects of the abuse. It is not for us to determine how they should behave. It is up to them.  Their parents suck and no doubt contributed to some degree to this situation. But we have to let these women deal with it on their own terms. Just because we are outraged doesn’t necessarily mean that they are. Maybe they are struggling mightily with the repercussions, but they have not publically indicated such.

Anyway, everyone has a different opinion.  Mine is that I just wish we could be more civil with each other and accept that our personal experiences colour our view on situations. We can try to understand each other and determine why someone might have such an opposing position. 

Ok. I think I’ve overstated my welcome in this thread. Going to bed.