Spanky Sproul 2: WTF is Happening, In More Ways than One

[seraaa]

5 hours ago, BobJonesBabe said:

Also, not sure how to insert a link...but noticed Darby retweeted this from Boz Tchividjian: 

"Would any of us ever say to our son or daughter, “I can’t wait for you to grow up so that I can use you. You will be Daddy’s tool to bring glory to me”"

It is very difficult to have a parent whose overweening, predominant focus on themselves made them unable to give their children the support they needed growing up, or indeed in general. Some people to struggle to put themselves into the shoes of another, and it is a damn shame.

More power to anyone dealing with this situation. 

[DomWackTroll]

Spanky's accusation that his children and Denise's parents are "worshiping" Denise just shows that he feels that Denise has done in death what she could not do in life: assert power over her husband. I think it enrages him. 

Yet Lisa is allowed to have plenty of power, because she's hot and sexy and would never wear a frumper. She would never be the woman Spanky forced Denise to be. She's the anti-Denise, and that's what he wants... for now. 

[MamaJunebug]

21 minutes ago, DomWackTroll said:

Spanky's accusation that his children and Denise's parents are "worshiping" Denise just shows that he feels that Denise has done in death what she could not do in life: assert power over her husband. I think it enrages him. 

Yet Lisa is allowed to have plenty of power, because she's hot and sexy and would never wear a frumper. She would never be the woman Spanky forced Denise to be. She's the anti-Denise, and that's what he wants... for now. 

You win the Internet. 

But only the parts you want. 

[LilMissMetaphor]

I feel sorry for the original RC for having such a shitty son.  

[DomWackTroll]

4 minutes ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

I feel sorry for the original RC for having such a shitty son.  

Yes. Even though I obviously disagree with many of the things RC Sr. said/taught, he seemed like a man who was loving and caring in his familial relationships. I certainly can't imagine him hanging his dirty laundry out on social media and being so cruel to his own children. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

11 minutes ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

I feel sorry for the original RC for having such a shitty son.  

I don't. He reaped what he sowed. He was an homophobic, misogynistic asshole. He was just better at whitewashing. His beliefs were harmful and hateful. And he educated his son accordingly.

[ViolaSebastian]

13 hours ago, 241 said:

 Anyone coming to fj can filter- sift through the propaganda to destroy a father and a mother. It’s disgusting.

I am admittedly a new-comer to this disaster who is only familiar with the very basics of what's happened, but it seems to me that R.C. and Lisa have done a damn fine job of destroying themselves without FJ involved at all. 

[LilMissMetaphor]

12 minutes ago, DomWackTroll said:

Yes. Even though I obviously disagree with many of the things RC Sr. said/taught, he seemed like a man who was loving and caring in his familial relationships. I certainly can't imagine him hanging his dirty laundry out on social media and being so cruel to his own children. 

I like that, as you say, aside from whether or not one aligns with his teachings (I can't get behind Calvinism) from all accounts of those who knew him and worked with him, he was a bright, funny, humble man.  Unlike Steve-0, he appreciated (according to his peers) good food, music, dance, and didn't try to tell people they shouldn't have or didn't deserve these things.  It's sad that shitheads like Steve and Jill would probably use the example of RC Jr turning out so crappy to say that RC Sr should have starved him more or educated him less or not ever let him out of his sight, or some shit like that.

[Howl]

That may be the worst thing I've ever read on social media.  

Speaking as the child of an alcoholic, and based on reports of Spanky's drinking habits, his DUI, he's an alcoholic.  He was likely an (abusive) alcoholic during his first marriage. Even if he has stopped drinking through Lisa's influence, he still has the alcoholic personality operating at full tilt.  He's never come out and said, I'm an alcoholic or I'm a recovering alcoholic, there's no admission of the problem and no implication that he's gone through any type of serious addiction counseling, AA or a followup group. He can spout Christian piety till hell freezes over and it doesn't touch the main problem -- an underlying unaddressed addictive, abusive personality. 

To get to the point,  that post is exactly the vicious crap that can come from a raging alcoholic, drinking or not.

Glad to see Darby quoting Boz Tchividjian, who is unrelenting and unsparing in holding spiritual abusers of all stripes to task. 

[punkiepie]

That has to be one of the most vile things I have ever read before.  The way Spanky threw in the Bible verses, reminded me of me when I was a bratty fundie teenager.  I got in trouble for my sassy mouth and my mom told me to go through the bible and write down verses about parents and their children. I knew what she wanted, but instead I went through and wrote down verses like Eph 6;4 "fathers, provoke not your children to wrath," and Matt 18:10 "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones."  Even as a bratty teenager, I realized that you can cherry pick the bible to say whatever it is you want it to say.  

Those poor kids, I can't imagine what it must be like to lose your mom at such a young age and then have her memory so publicly violated by her husband/your father.  If they aren't smoking all the weed, maybe they need to, because that's some seriously heavy shit to be dealing with.  

 

[Flyinthesoup]

8 hours ago, BobJonesBabe said:

So, this has been on my mind, and I did some sleuthing. On September 11, Denise’s mother made a sweet post on her memory FB page. (This is all public, so hopefully it’s okay to share?)

but...here is RC’s response!! ?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The thread is here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1460809127355141&set=p.1460809127355141&type=3&theater

• I literally have no words. The vitriol from RCJR... 

 

So is the link correct?  If so, I am unable to access it.   That has happened so many times in the past few weeks.  I'm not that late to the posting!  On one hand, I'm glad I can't read it.  From the screen shots I can clearly see this will make me ill.  It's probably best I don't read more.  No words to express the multitude of emotions I feel in reading this stuff.  Spanky and Lisa's actions speak louder than words. 

[thoughtful]

We need an emoji of God eyerolling.

The very idea that the normal desire to fondly remember someone who has died is "worship" is so bizarre and so offensive that I'm almost at a loss for words.

Topped off with Spanky's predictable assertion that he understands what God wants, and that those opposed to R.C are against God, just puts the narcissistic cherry on top.

 

[BobJonesBabe]

1 hour ago, Flyinthesoup said:

So is the link correct?  If so, I am unable to access it.   That has happened so many times in the past few weeks.  I'm not that late to the posting!  On one hand, I'm glad I can't read it.  From the screen shots I can clearly see this will make me ill.  It's probably best I don't read more.  No words to express the multitude of emotions I feel in reading this stuff.  Spanky and Lisa's actions speak louder than words. 

That link should take too right there, so I’m sorry it’s not working. (You can also search for “Denise Sproul,” on Facebook. 

but for those who are able, each sub thread and comment is pretty disgusting.

if any of the Sproul kids are reading here...I am not wishing to disrespect your mom in any way. If anything, I’m wanting to separate her and her children from the toxicity that is Rc jr. my heart hurts for her mom and siblings, too. 

 

 

10 minutes ago, thoughtful said:

We need an emoji of God eyerolling.

The very idea that the normal desire to fondly remember someone who has died is "worship" is so bizarre and so offensive that I'm almost at a loss for words.

Topped off with Spanky's predictable assertion that he understands what God wants, and that those opposed to R.C are against God, just puts the narcissistic cherry on top.

 

 Right? Basically, he’s calling Darby our for wanting to do what he *says* he’s doing—honor her mom in her own way. Only, Darby’s way is completely normal. His is toxic, and likely only an excuse for his narcissistic ways.

they aren’t worshipping her, Spanky! Denise’s mom is pretty clear about that. He also wants Darby to just delete the page and make a new one...but he misses the whole point. By posting on Denise’s wall, it still reaches people who were connected to her online while she was living. Ugh. 

Props to Darby for standing up to her dad. That’s hard for anyone to do, but especially when you’ve been raised by a man like that in a subculture like that. 

Also, telling his kids to get over the loss of their mom and publicly chastising *all* of them for it getting over her more quickly...???

[Banyan]

Even by Sproul Jr standards this is some crazy stuff. Psychotically crazy. It reeks of paranoia. Seems like Sproul's new found sobriety isn't going so well. Years of alcohol abuse rewires the brain making it wholly dependent on the alcohol. By his own account Sproul has been a heavy imbiber since his high school days. That means that for the majority of his life Sproul rarely saw a day that didn't include the consumption of large quantities of booze. Very proud of it too, proud enough to write a novella about his drinking escapades and post it on his ministry web site (which got taken down but the Spinderella Sproul site reposted it). A lifetime of heavy daily alcohol consumption left his brain in a place where it doesn't know how to function without it, let alone function in a healthy way. Some of the effects are likely irreversible.

Going cold turkey has unpleasant side effects for the alcoholic, but those effects are temporary and usually last only a few days and at the most 30 days. Even as serious as delirium tremens are they're still temporary. In Sproul's case he supposedly sobered up right after he got locked up for DUI in late 2016. In extreme cases (which Sproul Jr is an extreme case) some people can experience much longer term effects, including Alcohol Psychotic Disorder, a serious mental illness which often includes paranoia. What we're witnessing here is indicative of that.

So now he's got two major things working against his mental health -- recovery from a lifetime of pickling his brain with booze, but trying to recover while being married to a psychobitch who could drive a man to drink. Apparently it didn't take very long for that to happen. He got that DUI just 10 days after the wedding. I'm pretty sure getting blind drunk like that wasn't done to celebrate the new marriage. If driving drunk with kids in the car doesn't scream, "Holy crap, I just figured out I made the biggest mistake of my life! I married a psycho!" I don't know what does. The temptation to go back on the bottle at this point must be irresistible. He's free to continue destroying his life if he wants to but for the sake of his children I hope he gets professional help. And the professional help I'm suggesting isn't marriage counseling.

[older than allosaurs]

1 hour ago, thoughtful said:

We need an emoji of God eyerolling.

The very idea that the normal desire to fondly remember someone who has died is "worship" is so bizarre and so offensive that I'm almost at a loss for words.

Topped off with Spanky's predictable assertion that he understands what God wants, and that those opposed to R.C are against God, just puts the narcissistic cherry on top.

 

"...to perservere in obstinate condolement is a course of impious stubbornness. 'Tis unmanly grief. It shows a will most incorrect to heaven."  You know what that's from? Hamlet. You know who said it? Claudius, Hamlet's uncle/stepfather after he had secretly killed Hamlet senior. It didn't end well.

Other things have occurred to me.

Shouldn't people who grew up in a ministry and are trying to start a new one have some elementary sense of social media management? Lisa's Purpose Driven Wife site is an incoherent mess and half the links don't work. Spatting with your kids and inlaws on Facebook is dumb as well as mean.

I'm an adoptive parent and I later became a stepparent to grown children when I married their dad. Adopting my kids did not magically make me their mom except in the narrowest paperwork sense. Mothering them over years did that. Their continuing relationship with their birthfamily does not shove me aside, for heaven's sake.

Marrying my current husband did not make me a literal mother to his daughters. I appreciate the relationship we have, but their mom is their mom.

If I were a betting woman I would lay money that RC is back on the bottle and the First Lady is not living the tartan plaid fairy tale that is surely her due.

 

 

[Howl]

11 minutes ago, older than allosaurs said:

If I were a betting woman I would lay money that RC is back on the bottle

Starting to have suspicions myself. 

[hoipolloi]

37 minutes ago, older than allosaurs said:

If I were a betting woman I would lay money that RC is back on the bottle and the First Lady is not living the tartan plaid fairy tale that is surely her due.

Bingo. Spanky probably stayed sober long enough to meet the terms of his plea agreement which allowed him to be on adult probation for a year instead of serving a prison sentence.

The person(s) posting here as @241 sure seem to be under some influence -- I hope it's not chemical and if it is I hope they're not driving while under it.

[punkiepie]

It would be interesting to run comparisons of 241 and Schmoopys' posts with previous blog posts/FB posts from RC and Lisa.  I know that programs exist that can determine the probability of two things being written by the same person, I just don't know what they are or have access to them.  The overly decorative language seems to be a dead giveaway, but I know that way more goes in to comparing two samples of writing than just "it sounds alike."

 

[nausicaa]

10 hours ago, AnnaSofia said:

Seriously? These psychos are that mindbogglingly jealous of the kids (and their grandma) memorializing their late mother?!?!

I'm beginning to think that RC Jr. and Lisa are bonded together by a joint case of narcissistic personality disorder rather than marriage vows. I'm not being hyperbolic when I say get some fucking help. Both of you need it.

Seriously, what the hell is going on with them? That post from Denise's mom was the most innocuous thing ever. And if someone is so bothered by their partner having a deceased spouse and children from that marriage, then don't fucking marry a widower. 

These two are more ridiculous than high school students in accepting former relationships. RC expects the profile picture of him and his wife of twenty years to be deleted because he is now married to someone else? If that is his logic, did he destroy all of their wedding photos as well? Are the kids ever even allowed to mention their mom?

And Liz is thrice divorced? As in this is her FOURTH marriage? Whew. Buckle up. This is going to be a wild ride. 

[mountaineer]

Longtime FJ reader and inside-my-head responder, created an account just to get in on this conversation.  I will second the motion that R.C. Jr's behavior on that memorial page might be the most atrocious thing I have ever seen on the internet.

I lived near the St. Peter church for many years and knew several members and those in their social world through the local farmers market (lots of second-career homesteaders/small farmers in that church).  The whole reason I initially found FJ was because I was so fascinated with the sociology of St. Peter.  I knew families who literally moved thousands of miles to rural southwest Virginia in order to become members of the "Simple, Separate, Deliberate Kingdom" that St. Peter was supposed to be.   I remember a couple of years after the Sprouls left, they were back for a visit, I guess, because all these farm maidens were scurrying around the market chattering about how "Darby is coming! Darby is coming! I hope Darby has time to come to my house! Where is Darby staying?  Will Darby still be here for the baby shower?" like she was the Queen of England.  I remember overhearing, on many occasions, people gushing to each other about R.C.'s preaching, how gifted he was, how special his family was.  I also heard a lot of stories about awful things within the church that I can't actually confirm and didn't experience firsthand, so I won't post those here.  I went to the church's website and found his blog.  Kept googling, found this site (stayed for the S'Mortons, who remind me so much of the St. Peter crowd). 

Anyway.  I was and continue to be fascinated by this world-- by how people were so fixated on this church and its quasi-celebrity founder, that they uprooted their families, left behind lucrative professions and extended family, in order to be a part of something that they considered to be Very Important.  And I imagine that the Sproul kids were raised from birth to think of themselves as Extra Very Important.  Many of Darby's old posts reflect this.  Girl spent a lot of years projecting a pretty smug picture of herself.  And because her sense of her own importance probably came largely from her superstar Reformed family tree, I consider it all the more remarkable that she has shifted so dramatically lately, and not just in publicly denouncing her own father on this very personal matter of honoring her mother's memory and continuing to grieve.  Her speaking out about sexual abuse within the church and her recent jesting about her sibling's denominational choices come to mind.  She's proven herself capable of moving at least somewhat beyond the rigid thinking she was raised with, and I do think that's admirable.

To lose both parents-- one to cancer and one to a huge fallout/coming to understand that he is a despicable person-- just as she came into adulthood and began her own family had to have been challenging in many ways (not to mention losing access her beloved siblings by extension).  I can only hope that her husband is a good man.  If she married a creep during such a tumultuous time, she would be so vulnerable to abuse of all kinds.  But I'd take her apparent strengthening resolve to speak her mind as an indication that this is not the case.  I would also hope that she has figured out over the years that being revered for any reason (a famous family, for instance) comes with a responsibility to be good to the people who fawn over you.  I was a little grossed out by her "mentorship" business for this reason.  I can absolutely picture the farm maidens from the market so many years ago forking over their (limited) funds to her based on that same breathless excitement about their mere proximity to her.  So, Darby, if you're reading: if you're still doing the mentorship thing, I hope you really and truly have a worthwhile product to offer your fans.  You're a good writer and I believe you have some decent marketing skills.  You'd be very successful in the professional world, I think, if you ever choose to go that direction.

tl;dr: Team Darby, with caveats.  Also, for goodness sake, Team Betty Lou.  Poor woman. 
 

[butterfly girl]

I am mostly a lurker here, but to me, the very name 241(Two for one) taken literally sounds like it is LIsa speaking with Jr.'s knowledge or vise versa.  I mean they share a facebook page as well.  

To any Sproul kids reading this, go you!  None of you are responsible for how you were raised or who raised you.  The things I have read about your mom make her sound like a gem.  I am so sorry you lost her so soon and so sorry that your dad seems to have lost all connections with reality in the time since.  My heart just dropped as I read above the way he spoke to you and of you and your mom and her family.  It is simply horrifying.   

I don't think it is fair to hold over them choices they made in their youth.  They had no real ability to do otherwise at the time and as they have grown, gained exposure outside of the bubble they were raised in, they have had the chance to develop and grow into the people they are.  It must be very hard to have to do that on a semi public stage.  

[Flyinthesoup]

1 hour ago, BobJonesBabe said:

That link should take too right there, so I’m sorry it’s not working. (You can also search for “Denise Sproul,” on Facebook. 

but for those who are able, each sub thread and comment is pretty disgusting.

if any of the Sproul kids are reading here...I am not wishing to disrespect your mom in any way. If anything, I’m wanting to separate her and her children from the toxicity that is Rc jr. my heart hurts for her mom and siblings, too. 

 

 

 Right? Basically, he’s calling Darby our for wanting to do what he *says* he’s doing—honor her mom in her own way. Only, Darby’s way is completely normal. His is toxic, and likely only an excuse for his narcissistic ways.

they aren’t worshipping her, Spanky! Denise’s mom is pretty clear about that. He also wants Darby to just delete the page and make a new one...but he misses the whole point. By posting on Denise’s wall, it still reaches people who were connected to her online while she was living. Ugh. 

Props to Darby for standing up to her dad. That’s hard for anyone to do, but especially when you’ve been raised by a man like that in a subculture like that. 

Also, telling his kids to get over the loss of their mom and publicly chastising *all* of them for it getting over her more quickly...???

I searched and found a "memorial page" for her, but every time I try clicking on the FB link, it's not taking me anywhere.  Perhaps because I don't know any of them or I'm out of country?  It's probably for the best.  I do not need to read such horrible things, it will likely make me angry and sick.  I'll trust all you who are posting.  ?

 

[mountaineer]

33 minutes ago, butterfly girl said:

I am mostly a lurker here, but to me, the very name 241(Two for one) taken literally sounds like it is LIsa speaking with Jr.'s knowledge or vise versa. 

I agree, but I doubt it's him.  He knows how to write.  He clearly puts a lot of thought into making his tweets sound profound, and his writings are generally well-constructed and rhetorically shrewd, if abhorrent in content.  241 reads like someone who fancies herself a high-church intellectual but is actually not that smart.  On the other hand, R.C. Jr. is probably too smart for his own good, I'm afraid. 

 

[BobJonesBabe]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

If that is his logic, did he destroy all of their wedding photos as well? 

Based on Erin Claire’s comment on the thread...yes, he did destroy all photos of Denise. Including memories of her with the kids. But Grannie reassured them that she has copies of some of them. ?

23 minutes ago, mountaineer said:

I agree, but I doubt it's him.  He knows how to write.  He clearly puts a lot of thought into making his tweets sound profound, and his writings are generally well-constructed and rhetorically shrewd, if abhorrent in content.  241 reads like someone who fancies herself a high-church intellectual but is actually not that smart.  On the other hand, R.C. Jr. is probably too smart for his own good, I'm afraid. 

 

“who fancies herself a high-church intellectual but is actually not that smart” fits Lisa to a T. 

[older than allosaurs]

1 hour ago, mountaineer said:

Longtime FJ reader and inside-my-head responder, created an account just to get in on this conversation.  I will second the motion that R.C. Jr's behavior on that memorial page might be the most atrocious thing I have ever seen on the internet.

I lived near the St. Peter church for many years and knew several members and those in their social world through the local farmers market (lots of second-career homesteaders/small farmers in that church).  The whole reason I initially found FJ was because I was so fascinated with the sociology of St. Peter.  I knew families who literally moved thousands of miles to rural southwest Virginia in order to become members of the "Simple, Separate, Deliberate Kingdom" that St. Peter was supposed to be.   I remember a couple of years after the Sprouls left, they were back for a visit, I guess, because all these farm maidens were scurrying around the market chattering about how "Darby is coming! Darby is coming! I hope Darby has time to come to my house! Where is Darby staying?  Will Darby still be here for the baby shower?" like she was the Queen of England.  I remember overhearing, on many occasions, people gushing to each other about R.C.'s preaching, how gifted he was, how special his family was. 
 

Thank for this background information. It's illuminating and it reminds me of something. I went through a little Sproul research obsession a couple of years ago, and I ran across a posting that may have been from one of the "farm maidens." She wrote about seeing R.C. Sr. in I guess one of his final appearances, and how his youngest grandchildren came up on stage to join him, and oh my goodness, they were black, and doesn't that just show you what a saintly, sacrificing family that is. Imagine someone doing such a wonderful thing, etc. It was creepy, and I felt terrible for those boys. 

The poster herself just seemed young and clueless and I don't fault her, but someone surely was ginning up that atmosphere of extra-specialness about all things Sproul.

And I agree about the writing style. R. C. writes and speaks well, rather in the Doug Wilson vein. (Wilson, I'm sorry to say, has a very nice speaking voice to go with that great big vocabulary.) He doesn't sound like 241. But Lisa, from her blog, can sound like this:

Quote

We often do not want our carpets to get messy with the odoriferous ooze of shattered lives and broken hearts who need love and restoration. It is quite easier on the senses to hide them in the corner or in a bubble where they can be seen, but not heard. Isolation is abuse and furthers abuse.

Quote

If our "religion" becomes offended by the truth of what escorts saints to sinful places, instead of breaking our hearts, where we weep for their souls, we need to rethink what the Gospel did for our own selves, own story of redemption. Do not stick your nose up in arrogance and pride, instead be willing to roll up your sleeves and give your lives in a mission to others. Why are you called, if for no other reason?