The Miller Family: The Rolling Pertussis-Mobile

[Beermeet]

Or homeschooling southern baptists : /

[JermajestyDuggar]

I saw this on the Millers' page. They were asking about Scameritan type medical share plans. We were just talking about the Catlins because Jill posed with Betsy for a bump shot. This is Betsy's third in three years. I'll never understand why fundies who have huge broods don't want to use Medicaid and prefer Scameritan type stuff. It always amazes me. 

[twoanddone]

49 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I saw this on the Millers' page. They were asking about Scameritan type medical share plans. We were just talking about the Catlins because Jill posed with Betsy for a bump shot. This is Betsy's third in three years. I'll never understand why fundies who have huge broods don't want to use Medicaid and prefer Scameritan type stuff. It always amazes me. 

 

I have a theory. Most republicans are against social help programs (including medicaid). Through going through scameritan, they can proclaim that they aren't government dependent. What kind of people would they be if they were benefiting from the very programs their lord and fuhrer Donald Trump and his cronies want to cut? 

The basic program for a family of their size would be 395 with an additional 100.00 for the "enhanced" program. WTFE that means. 

 

 

[RosyDaisy]

The only essential oil that I can tell that actually works is tea tree oil. I mix a few drops in a bottle of witch hazel. Best astringent and face toner! The rest make me sneeze.

 

Why do people who pay taxes against using public assistance when they need it? I don't get it.

[JMarie]

Posted on their FB page today.  "Enraged females."

Quote

God forbid that boys or men maintain exclusivity in any area of society without a group of enraged females taking it as an affront to all womanhood.

The fact that there is an exclusively girls club is not good enough. They must push their way into the male realm to assert their perceived superiority. Evil and sad at the same time.

I wonder what the new name will be. Surely it can't remain BOY Scouts.

 

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

The fundies are always so psycho about keeping women in their place. Can't let those females get any big ideas in their pretty little heads....

[HarryPotterFan]

On 9/26/2017 at 12:14 PM, SoGladIWasCofE said:Yeah, there are reasons patient consent protocols and ethics boards exist, and it's so you can't do shit like that.

Yup! Researchers did so so many awful things before consent protocols and ethics boards were created. Operating without anesthesia, the Tuskegee experiment, traumatizing babies...(agh what did I do to that quote?)

@ILoveJellybeans Thank you for that post! Wakefield is awful, there is a special place in hell for him. Some of these parents are so desperate for a "cure" they end up abusing their child (the chelation enemas you mentioned, Miracle Mineral Solution which is toxic and 28% sodium chlorite - which is basically bleach...).

 There have been a couple stories in the news lately of a parent being taken to court for failing to vaccinate their child. In one case a mother was the primary caregiver, failed to vaccinate her child within an allotted period (based on a request from the father and court) and she was jailed for 7 days. Another woman didn't vaccinate her child and tried to bring in an anti-vaxx doc said an expert, which pissed off the judge.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2017/10/12/a-mother-was-jailed-for-refusing-to-vaccinate-her-son-now-shes-outraged-hes-been-immunized/?utm_term=.d184ad024285

 

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2017/10/12/vaccination-dispute/106556672/

 

[JMarie]

45 minutes ago, HarryPotterFan said:

Yup! Researchers did so so many awful things before consent protocols and ethics boards were created. Operating without anesthesia, the Tuskegee experiment, traumatizing babies...(agh what did I do to that quote?)

@ILoveJellybeans Thank you for that post! Wakefield is awful, there is a special place in hell for him. Some of these parents are so desperate for a "cure" they end up abusing their child (the chelation enemas you mentioned, Miracle Mineral Solution which is toxic and 28% sodium chlorite - which is basically bleach...).

 There have been a couple stories in the news lately of a parent being taken to court for failing to vaccinate their child. In one case a mother was the primary caregiver, failed to vaccinate her child within an allotted period (based on a request from the father and court) and she was jailed for 7 days. Another woman didn't vaccinate her child and tried to bring in an anti-vaxx doc said an expert, which pissed off the judge.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2017/10/12/a-mother-was-jailed-for-refusing-to-vaccinate-her-son-now-shes-outraged-hes-been-immunized/?utm_term=.d184ad024285

 

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2017/10/12/vaccination-dispute/106556672/

 

The mother mentioned in the Washington Post article was on Good Morning America.  Not only was she sent to jail, her son also received all his vaccinations.  The custody agreement was also changed; the dad previously got the son every other weekend, but now will share custody 50/50 with the mother.  And she insists she'd do it all again.  Why?  Her son was going to get vaccinated, whether with or without her assistance.  She now has a record and had to miss a week of work.  It doesn't seem worth it.

[FundieFarmer]

You know, I am VERY pro vaxx. But I don't know how I feel about forcing people to vaxx. This issue recently came up at work because we work in healthcare, where hospitals often force you to vaccinate or wear a mask in the building. I don't mind getting a flu shot, but a colleague was very disturbed by it once she heard we had to do it. The flu can be deadly, you know it's a requirement of your job, you're in a hospital where people are obviously already ill and immunocompromised, it's just sort of a thing. I also agree with needing to vaccinate for things like polio, chicken pox, etc. There's nothing I wouldn't vaccinate against. But there's just something about taking away a person's autonomy to say no that makes me feel squirrelly. I also don't want everybody else exposed to the illness, though– especially as someone who grew up with a fragile immune system. 

I see all sides here. I just feel like it's a very slippery slope. I get why people are concerned about losing the right to say no, even though I feel like everyone should always say yes...if that even make sense at all. (As you can see, I am clearly still noodling on this.)

[NotQuiteMotY]

On 10/12/2017 at 10:44 PM, JMarie said:

Posted on their FB page today.  "Enraged females."

 

Um, did they pay attention to the fact that it's the leadership of Boy Scouts doing this, not "enraged females"? To be honest, as a former Girl Scout, I'm annoyed by it.

[VVV]

1 hour ago, FundieFarmer said:

But there's just something about taking away a person's autonomy to say no that makes me feel squirrelly. I also don't want everybody else exposed to the illness, though– especially as someone who grew up with a fragile immune system.

The problem is that we are talking about children, who by definition and law cannot consent or refuse consent on their own, and adults who are making what could be life-or-death decisions for them based on nothing but pseudoscience or fraud.

When my children were minors it was the responsibility of my husband and me to make the best decisions we could based on available facts. Facts, not blog posts.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I just want to throw out there.... 

The people who are all most vocal on FB about bodily autonomy when it comes to vaccines seem to be the same people who want to take away bodily autonomy in outlawing abortion. Yet they never see the hypocrisy. It's incredibly annoying. 

27 minutes ago, VVV said:

The problem is that we are talking about children, who by definition and law cannot consent or refuse consent on their own, and adults who are making what could be life-or-death decisions for them based on nothing but pseudoscience or fraud.

When my children were minors it was the responsibility of my husband and me to make the best decisions we could based on available facts. Facts, not blog posts.

I see it similarly to medical neglect. Like the parents who pray instead of taking their very ill child to the hospital. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I also want to say that I do not think all medical neglect is even. Not vaxing your kids because of some blog told you not to is mild medical neglect. Not treating your child's treatable cancer is severe medical neglect. 

[FundieFarmer]

The problem is that we are talking about children, who by definition and law cannot consent or refuse consent on their own, and adults who are making what could be life-or-death decisions for them based on nothing but pseudoscience or fraud.

When my children were minors it was the responsibility of my husband and me to make the best decisions we could based on available facts. Facts, not blog posts.

Sorry- I wasn't applying this to kids really, I was looking at it more for my particular situation as it pertains to adults. Kids are definitely a different situation to me. Additionally, I think they're also exposed to more germs because they and their peers lack the knowledge of combatting exposure simply by taking preventive measures on their own (hand washing, sanitizer, covering when sneezing, etc) that would allow them to avoid flu shots if they didn't want them, etc.

 

Jermajesty, I've never seen anyone who wants to prohibit vaccinations in the name of bodily autonomy simultaneously want to outlaw abortions. That is contradictory to me and I just haven't seen it. Could you clarify that or did I read your post wrong? I've had a long day and a headache since my daith had to come out, so anything is possible over here.

[VVV]

21 minutes ago, FundieFarmer said:

Kids are definitely a different situation to me. Additionally, I think they're also exposed to more germs because they and their peers lack the knowledge of combatting exposure simply by taking preventive measures on their own (hand washing, sanitizer, covering when sneezing, etc) that would allow them to avoid flu shots if they didn't want them, etc.

I am sorry you're not feeling well and hope you feel better soon (from snipped part of quote).

I am not a medical professional, degreed or otherwise, but isn't it true that the flu is contagious beyond the effectiveness of handwashing and covering when sneezing? Not that any of that sort of thing is a bad idea but I wouldn't consider it a substitute for a vaccination.

[JillyO]

I understand why you're uncomfortable with the idea of mandatory vaccinations, @FundieFarmer. However, I don't think anyone here was really advocating forcibly vaccinating people. And I personally don't think your example really holds. No one is FORCING your co-worker to vaccinate. It is simply a requirement for their job. They can take a lot of other jobs and not have vaccination requirements. They are also (if I understand you correctly) free to wear a face mask instead of getting vaccinated. That is not at all forcing people to vaccinate in my book. That's just looking out for other people's health. Your co-worker has several choices in the matter, only one of which is to get vaccinated against her own desires.

[dpndetfarm]

I see "your" right to bodily autonomy (choosing not to vaccinate yourself/your children) along the same lines as "your" right to free speech. "Your" right ends when it impacts my rights. So no yelling fire in a crowded theater and no wandering into "my" possibly imunocompromised space. Or "my" too young to be vaccinated child's space. Or no traveling to places where vaccine preventable diseases have not been  eradicated and returning without being quarantined for x weeks at one's own expense. 

"Your" right to take magical semen pills to cure your cancer does not effect my rights so have at it. "Your" right to pass on deadly illnesses to the general public does.

The "your" are to make this a generic statement. Not addressing anyone in particular.

Edited October 18, 2017 by dpndetfarm
Spelling error

[FundieFarmer]

4 hours ago, JillyO said:

I don't think anyone here was really advocating forcibly vaccinating people.

No, I don't think anyone here was advocating that either. We're having a reasonable discussion about why it's good for people to get vaccinations. 

I was just giving an example about a situation we came into contact with in my own life that was sort of a catch-22. I know that's not really comparable, and that in this case there's an optional way out– though it's worth noting that it's an obvious mark that you didn't get the flu shot and it is an obnoxious complication. You cannot take the mask off at any point you are in the building, and it must constantly be changed. So really you have to be very dedicated to not getting that shot to put up with wearing those masks– they're a real PITA and frankly, uncomfortable. Give me the shot any day (but I guess that's what they're going for!).

Being in that position with that catch-22 made me think about the people who do want to force vaccinations (as we know those people do exist). And if we are going to make the argument that "your right to not take vaccines comes up against my right not to get sick" then that's a slippery slope too. How do we determine what constitutes exposure? Who's going to be the governing body for that? To me, that kind of looks like an impetus to get vaccines for everybody who can even if they don't want to, which puts us in a weird position.

Really, it's all a mess. I'm not making a statement either way. Like I said this is something I'm noodling on after an situation that applied to my life (which isn't to say I wasn't noodling on it before, just that a colleague was more concerned about it than anyone I'd run into before so I came face to face with it more intimately than I had in the past). 

[Red Jumper]

Another point coming into the play is the question of medical costs. If one decides against the vaccination of let's say rubella, who pays for the costs if you get German measles during pregnancy? There might be health defecits to the baby that need measures in the long run which can amount to some pretty sum. Who pays for the costs if someone else is infected by the unvaccinated person? Who pays for the loss of income or loss of parental sick leave (if there is something like that in a given country/job) when your child needs to be at home instead of day care or school? So the choice of one person has impact on the others.
I agree with the slippery slope, though. If not vaccinating your child is medical neglect (and I do actually agree), all* adults would in theory be vaccinated. Next step: all immigrants need to be vaccinated = loss of bodily autonomy.

* I want to stress it is theoretical as I for the sake of the argument ignore all people who for medical reasons can/should not be vaccinated.

First you think the benefit of society in case of rubella and other classics outweigh the loss of individual rights. Next are mandatory flu shots every year for everyone. After that are shots just developed because of influential lobbying.
If this sounds too much of a conspiracy theory, I can assure you, we had lobbying for a certain vaccination here. The publicly funded commercials suddenly stopped when the production of the vaccine was moved out of the country. The disease is still here. I think for certain groups of people the vaccination makes a lot of sense. Just not for everyone as the ads wanted us to believe (in addition they changed the update necessity every season which I think is unplausible).
Perhaps I need a tinfoil hat but I'll hedge my bets and get an update shot as well.

[FundieFarmer]

10 minutes ago, Red Jumper said:

Who pays for the costs if someone else is infected by the unvaccinated person?

Well, and another question: how do you even target whether the unvaccinated person had the disease? Maybe it was another source of exposure but they were around an unvaccinated person? Devil's advocate here. There are just a mountain load of questions that go into this. 

Oh lord I'm starting to sound like the Millers. Help me, because I don't actually agree with them...I'm just starting to get their perspective...which might be even worse!

[Red Jumper]

@FundieFarmer I voted with "agree with you" not because you sound a loonatic Miller but because  I had the same thought will typing and I agree with your point. Isn't is scary when you start feeling like 'one of those'?

On the other hand, if you can put yourselves into the shoes that seem so crazy, you are able to see a lot more from the other side and ultimatly come up with a much bigger understanding of the problem. Sometimes you can find arguments to tell the crazy people that convince them or find a compromise. 

I haven't reached that point with the anti-vaxxers yet. I still think they are loonies who put others int danger.

 

 

 

[Lurky]

I've been wondering if there will be cases brought against their parents who withheld vaccines from their kids, by their own children.

Say, for example, a 15 year old boy gets mumps and as a result becomes infertile.  Or a 15 year old gets measles and through complications gets a life-changing condition like deafness/damage through meningitis etc.  Could they sue their parent, once they hit 16, on the basis that the parents chose to take risks with their child's health when they didn't have to pay the price.

[Red Jumper]

Wouldn't the possibility to sue your parents for medical neglect open the floodgates to suing for all kinds of parental neglect? (I could have pretended that my current post title is true but I prefer being an honest armchair FJite)

[Carol]

I wanted to bring this up amongst the vaccination concerns.

We started this thread about Paul Miller, the kind of person he is and how he raises his family.  Please read this and watch the video.  Judge Roy Moore is his idol.  Paul really, really wants that "christian"(racist, motherfucker) elected.  Neither of them have any respect for the law or our constitution.  In their opinion Jesus belongs in every law we make.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/roy-moore-foundation-nazi-donation_us_59e79abae4b08f9f9edc59a0?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

Paul likes to appear somewhat rational, a week ago he posted something from Science Insider that was clearly designed to make the reader believe he reads that website.  This was after he was referred to as anti-science.  Nice try, Paul.  

It's a smokescreen.  He's a deliberately ignorant, uneducated, manipulative male who believes in biblical patriarchy and would like to see the world ruled as such.  God, I feel for his kids.  I can only hope they have the brains to see through his bullshit.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Paul is having gall bladder attacks. He's always just drank apple cider vinegar but it didn't work this time (shocking) and he was throwing up. Of course he got lots of mixed advice. His mother in particular is begging him to go to the doctor. While his moronic Facebook friends are recommending gluten free diets, cleanses, and over the counter supplements. I'm just waiting for the update where he says, "the cleanses and gluten free diet didn't work. I'm now in the ER with life threatening complications." Because that's exactly what they did to their sick newborn.