Josh, Anna and the Ms 15: now with Mason

[tabitha2]

If someone knows a crime is about to be committed and says nothing they are abetting it so are also responsible for said crime. 

[viii]

Are they AS responsible for the crime as the person who committed it, though? This is what I mean - nothing is black and white to me. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

13 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

That's great in a world where everything is black and white,

My world IS black and white. :/ 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

There is a line here where the kidults will start bearing responsibility for every choice they make, Josh is solely responsible for cheating on Anna, that is ALL on him.  But I don't think he bears 100% or even 50% of the responsibility of molesting his sisters. He was 14/15 living in a secluded word where he had never been told what was normal about growing up, what was and wasn't normal thoughts or normal actions. This all happened before the Duggar's and TLC hooked up so he had almost no contact with the world outside of his family and the approved church members. He was never told lustful thoughts were a NORMAL part of growing up, when he told his parents what he did to his sisters they initially ignored it, that is on them they failed their children, Josh by not getting him real help and their daughters by not stopping Josh after the 1st time he touched one of his sisters, and not getting them real help either.  

They have made it almost impossible for Josh or any of his siblings to leave home, they are so uneducated and Josh is trapped with 5 kids, no life skills, and a ruined reputation.  Josh, Jill, Jessa, and soon Joy, Jinger & Joe will all be sadled with a kid or 3 Josiah won't be far behind. What are they going to do?  The only 2 right now who have any chance are Jinger and Joy because their husbands can make their own money, but neither of them can.

[Nikedagain?]

8 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

My world IS black and white. :/ 

This is sad to me. 

[singsingsing]

16 minutes ago, viii said:

Are they AS responsible for the crime as the person who committed it, though? This is what I mean - nothing is black and white to me. 

Totally depends on the crime in question. In some cases, the person who encouraged, planned, and helped to execute the crime might even be more responsible for it than the person who physically pulled the trigger.

[Carm_88]

I have a lot of sympathy and empathy for people in this world. Josh Duggar is one of them. I cannot imagine a childhood of being the oldest of 19 with abusive, nutty parents turning out perfectly! 

There are far too many shades of grey. Humans are complex beings and we are not one way or the other. We may be bent toward good or bad, but that doesn't mean that a good person cannot do bad things. You don't know what someone is capable of and you don't know their past. We are shaped by many things. 

[Crazy Enough to Join]

I don't so much pity Josh as hope he changes, for his kids and Anna's sake too.

[tabitha2]

If a person has rage issues or is just a mean entitled SOB and has real thoughts of hurting others and a person who is more rational knows this and urges, condones , helps or just ignores him and a crime is committed  then the Latter has equal responsibilities as that crime could usually have been prevented at any point.  

[SapphireSlytherin]

51 minutes ago, Nikedagain? said:

This is sad to me. 

It's sad to live it, let me tell you. It's the way my brain is wired - like a switch. :/ 

[Chocolatecheesecake]

Since I have started working my first real fulltime job I have been thinking a little more about the men in this religous branch. I'm not talking specifically about Josh, but just in general. It can actually be really really hard to earn enough money to make a decent living. Now take into consideration, that you have support a wife and multiple kids in your 20s without a proper education... I guess it's a little easier to live on one income as a whole family, in the US than in Austria, but still... I imagine it to be insanely stressful. Not just the exhaution from work and then getting home and probably not really being able to relax with all the kids, but also the mental stress of knowing how many people rely on you. And the whole sleeping only with one woman their whole lives thing... that really depens on the person, but for some men that must be soooo difficult! Especially when that woman is constantly pregnant, I'm sure for many that's not exactly a turn on. (NOT THAT THAT IN ANY WAY EXCUSES CHEATING ON YOUR PREGNANT WIFE) I personally have been living in a monogamous relationship for years now, but I was only ready for that after I had already had plenty of experience with other guys. Especially from about 17 - 20 I just had a really really strong sex drive. Now if I imagine that I had not been allowed to even touch a guy at that age...I think that would have seeeeriously messed with my head. 

[justoneoftwo]

12 minutes ago, Chocolatecheesecake said:

Since I have started working my first real fulltime job I have been thinking a little more about the men in this religous branch. I'm not talking specifically about Josh, but just in general. It can actually be really really hard to earn enough money to make a decent living. Now take into consideration, that you have support a wife and multiple kids in your 20s without a proper education... I guess it's a little easier to live on one income as a whole family, in the US than in Austria, but still... I imagine it to be insanely stressful. Not just the exhaution from work and then getting home and probably not really being able to relax with all the kids, but also the mental stress of knowing how many people rely on you. 

This stress must be insane.  I support 3 people, one of which is myself, and the other of which could get a job and support himself.  That alone keeps me up at night often.  And I'm highly educated and willing to work for people who are not exactly like me.  And we are at most going to have two more kids.  How can these "patriarchs" not die young from stress I'll never know.  I know they think g-d will provide, and to some extent I get that (my kid won't starve, I'm sure of it) but even believing that, the stress would literally kill me.

[JordynDarby5]

So many of you have bigger better hearts then I do. And a bigger capacity of forgiveness then me. And so much compassion for him. I really do respect and admire that. I really have a hard time pitying Josh. I can't let go or forgive the molestation. I really have a hard time believing that he is sorry or was ever sorry for his actions.  A lot of it comes from how he's behaved since the molestation. He became even more smug, more arrogant, he made weird comments towards his sisters, and accused other people of being molesters. These are not things you do if you are truly sorry for what you've done. Is he sorry for what he did or only because people found out? He molested five girls. His parents knew of the problem early on and they did nothing. When they finally did act all that happened was he was sent away for a few months to work on Hobby Lobby. Yes, he had to admit it in church. But his sisters had no choice but to accept his apology. His parents covered it all up. Would you really think you did anything wrong if your parents covered it up, your victims had to apologized to you and nothing really changed? In fact your parents continued to hold you up as an example of what to be? He continued to be the golden son. He's never acted like he's sorry. Is he sorry? Or does he just think he got away with it. I have an easier time pitying the rest of his siblings. The girls easily because they've been forced to do everything at such a young age, no real education and forced to forgive him no matter what their own feelings were. I have an easier time feeling sorry for his brothers denied a real education and forced to remain at home until marriage.  None of them have any choice or options. But Josh I really have a hard time pitying. If there were no molestation and only the cheating. I'd easily be able to pity him too.  Had he received real treatment and a real evaluation. Then maybe. I am impressed and really admire the compassion you have for him and the pity. You have such big hearts.          

[ViolaSebastian]

1 hour ago, JordynDarby5 said:

So many of you have bigger better hearts then I do. And a bigger capacity of forgiveness then me. And so much compassion for him. I really do respect and admire that. I really have a hard time pitying Josh. I can't let go or forgive the molestation. I really have a hard time believing that he is sorry or was ever sorry for his actions.  A lot of it comes from how he's behaved since the molestation. He became even more smug, more arrogant, he made weird comments towards his sisters, and accused other people of being molesters. These are not things you do if you are truly sorry for what you've done. Is he sorry for what he did or only because people found out? He molested five girls. His parents knew of the problem early on and they did nothing. When they finally did act all that happened was he was sent away for a few months to work on Hobby Lobby. Yes, he had to admit it in church. But his sisters had no choice but to accept his apology. His parents covered it all up. Would you really think you did anything wrong if your parents covered it up, your victims had to apologized to you and nothing really changed? In fact your parents continued to hold you up as an example of what to be? He continued to be the golden son. He's never acted like he's sorry. Is he sorry? Or does he just think he got away with it. I have an easier time pitying the rest of his siblings. The girls easily because they've been forced to do everything at such a young age, no real education and forced to forgive him no matter what their own feelings were. I have an easier time feeling sorry for his brothers denied a real education and forced to remain at home until marriage.  None of them have any choice or options. But Josh I really have a hard time pitying. If there were no molestation and only the cheating. I'd easily be able to pity him too.  Had he received real treatment and a real evaluation. Then maybe. I am impressed and really admire the compassion you have for him and the pity. You have such big hearts.          

After careful thought about it, although I pity Josh, I don't forgive him. He has been unrepentant about both the molestation and the cheating. He allowed his sisters to defend him on live television, even though he was engaging in horrendous behavior that would embarrass himself and his family. For me, at least, to forgive Josh, he would have to show some sort of public, honest contrition. And who the heck knows if he's even capable of it? That said, I think that the forgiveness that's really important here isn't mine--it's the victims of his behavior. 

[Dandruff]

I wonder how Josh might have turned out if TLC hadn't come along.  The molestations had already happened, he had been sent away for construction therapy (<--sarcasm), and returned.

Would JB & M have wanted him out of the house as soon as possible, due to the molestations and wanting one less mouth to feed?  If so, might he have been able to further his education?  Get some distance?  Meet more people his own age?  Or would he have been kept at home, working for JB, then married to a local fundie girl?  Other options?

Might he have skipped getting the "Smuggar" nickname if he hadn't returned after the molestations to a leading role on a TV special that led to a series?  Money, fans, etc.

[SilverBeach]

"I hope people feel pity/sympathy for young black men who commit crimes and were raised in abusive/neglectful economically stressed homes by undereducated parents in crime-ridden neighborhoods with abysmal schools. They more often than not get jail even when the crimes are non-violent, no soft landing for them like with Josh. "

Just in case some of you misunderstood, I am pointing out the inconsistency in feeling sympathy for Josh while young black men are generally dehumanized. I feel no sympathy for Josh and as a black woman I don't always feel sympathy for black criminals either. But I can understand their mitigating circumstances. My original post had an element of sarcasm in it. In today's climate in the USA, it's hard not to inject race into things. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

If anyone wants to lighten their mood a little, go look at Duggarfam Instagram with Josiah holding Mason. That baby is adorable. He looks a lot like Kenzie. 

[SilverBeach]

7 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

There are far too many shades of grey. Humans are complex beings and we are not one way or the other. We may be bent toward good or bad, but that doesn't mean that a good person cannot do bad things. You don't know what someone is capable of and you don't know their past. We are shaped by many things. 

There was an award-winning movie several years ago, "Crash".  This was a key point in the movie, in that one of the reprehensible characters did a totally unexpected good thing.  It was definitely thought provoking.

However, I would argue that a genuinely "good" person has a limit in how much they will hurt or victimize other human beings, especially in a violent manner. I think a genuinely good person has empathy and at least feels badly after hurting someone. I also think some people are just evil. We are all indeed imperfect, and say and do mean and hurtful things at times. But there is misdemeanor bad behavior, then there is the felony stuff. I think it is naive not to recognize this.

I was sexually abused as a young child by my stepfather, and I am not inclined to make any excuses for that man. People who have  been crime victims may have a different viewpoint on sympathy for those who behaved badly and hurt them. 

Yes, humans are complex, but I truly believe that the reason monstrous people like serial killers, and of course Hitler, and most recently the Turpins, arouse such outrage is because they are extremely atypical. Those who commit more common crimes are still in the minority. Even with 45 leading our country into a moral abyss, I have to believe that even with all of our defects, the vast majority of people have a conscience. And would not kill or molest me. Or I would have to leave the planet now.

ETA: Sympathy for wrongdoers is ok I guess, to a degree, but there must also be accountability.

[Escadora]

I used to be able to find sympathy for Josh, back about a year after the news broke, and when I had no idea of how far-reaching the effects of abuse can be, but nowadays I find it extremely hard to have any sympathy/forgiveness/pity for people who molest, regardless of the circumstances they did it under.  Perhaps I'm jaded, and not entirely entitled to an opinion as I'm fairly sure that I, myself, have not been molested, but there is going to be a far greater impact on the people in the family than we're observing so far, though it’s one that has been discussed before here.

Some backstory, though of course you don’t need it to follow along with my point:  A few months ago my mother confided in me, and told me that she had been repeatedly molested and raped by a relative of hers who was 16, when she was 6 years old.  She told me this after I finally managed to work up the guts to confront her on her obsessive protectiveness over us when we were children (not that I don't understand protecting your children, but she secluded us to the point where we all have difficulties functioning in society). My brothers and I were raised in a very confusing environment, where our mother would be constantly furious with us (post-natal depression that had yet to be diagnosed), and yet very reluctant to ever let us out of her sight. I'm in my mid-20s and when I truly think about the state of my life and where I am vs where I want to be, it's hard to recognise my own responsibility for changing it when I'm so caught up all the time in how incapable I feel to do so, which is something that my mother has a hard time sympathising with me for, because "you may be stunted, but at least I can go to the grave with a clear conscience and be able to say that my babies weren't molested".

I wrestle now, with the knowledge that the apologies I wanted for the way she deliberately stunted our social knowledge and growth will never come, or at least they’d never be meant.

So maybe I’m projecting, but when I think of Josh and what he did, the sisters and other victim he hurt (we’re talking not just the pain of molestation, but the knowledge that their parents weren’t going to advocate for them, or get them help, or punish/deal with Josh appropriately), and the families they’ll raise, it makes me ache particularly hard for the next generation, who will - on top of all the fundie patriarchal bullshit they subscribe to - be brought up with the weight of this on their shoulders too. Jill already confessed that she, in the thankfully decreasing chance she’ll ever have a daughter, plans to employ the same ‘safety measures’ her parents put in place to ‘protect’ her and her sisters when they were younger. Not only do I have sympathy for Israel and Samuel, already de facto molesters in their mother’s mind, but I also feel sorry for any future daughter she may bring into this world, who will be seperated from her brothers, probably not even allowed to hug them or have play fights, or be any kind of physically affectionate with them. I’ve no doubt that, with their perpetually awkward, people-pleasing mother, and straight up arse of a father, that the Dillard children will struggle to ‘fit-in’ in the event that they experience any schooling not at home (somehow I doubt there’s the next Pistol Pete in that quiver), and fitting in is a relatively small worry compared to the other hardships they’ll face.

I can’t say for sure whether that will happen in Joy, Jessa, and Jinger’s respective families, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there’s dysfunction ahead in the future, even if we’ll never know about it.

Personally I don’t think Josh is a risk to his children as far as sexual abuse goes, as his current behaviour seems to be the pursuit of grown women (hardly much better, people who cheat make me sick too) though if he and Anna use physical pain as punishment/’training’, then obviously he’s a risk to them in that way, and I don’t think he should be separated from them. But I think anyone’s pity is wasted on him, in much the same way that the notion of hope for people like Solomon Anderson to break free of PP’s brainwashing, and for Nurie Rodrigues to find a husband who’s not the same level of crazy as her mother is wasted.

I worry, also, that having pity for Josh allows for the excusing of his actions, and I’d like to make it clear that I believe that Josh is 100% responsible for molesting his victims. Regardless of the belief system he was brought up in, and the patriarchal views he had clearly already internalised, he made the conscious choice to molest, confess (because he knew it was wrong), and then molest again. That his idiot parents didn’t punish him and protect their daughters is on them, but as far as I’m concerned, the acts of molesting, lying, cheating, and being generally reprehensible, are all on him.

[SweetJuly]

We probably have to agree to disagree on how we all feel about Josh. It's perfectly normal because questions of responsibility, pity, forgiveness, etc. are extremely complex and how one person perceives or deals with something is highly down to individual temperament and experiences.

Personally I do think that Josh is 100% responsible for his actions as an adult, i.e. cheating on his wife, lying about it, blaming it on "Satan", being a hypocritical homophobic misogynistic douchebag who clamours for conservative "family values" while privately doing everything that flies into the face of what he publicly pretends to stand for, etc.

However, I do feel a certain pity for him. If he had had the chance to experience a more normal upbringing, have girlfriends, experiment sexually and emotionally, get to know and accept himself and his needs, find a truly suitable partner, things may have very well turned out a lot differently for adult Josh.

As for minor/teenage Josh.... it's difficult not to feel disgusted by his actions, but was he fully responsible for his actions? I'm on the fence about this. He certainly needed to be held accountable for what he did - and unfortunately this never happened! - but quite a bit of responsibility here rests on the shoulders of his shitty parents who created a toxic sexual environment, stifled and repressed the completely natural needs of their developing son, and failed to deal with the molestation in an appropriately corrective manner.

My pity here lies with his victims - his sisters and the unnamed other girl who have to live with the experience and the trauma.

I don't really feel sorry for Josh here, beyond what I described above, but it's such a complex situation. He certainly had an unhappy and at least emotionally (perhaps even physically) abusive childhood. It doesn't excuse his actions, but it provides somewhat of an explanation. He has been failed by his parents, by the cult in which he was brought up, and in consequence inflicted terrible suffering on others.

If only his parents had seen this as a sign that the path they were following was wrong and taken the molestation experience as a chance to look for proper psychological help for their son and themselves, actual support to heal their family, rather than dig their heels deeper into fundie life and ideology.

 

[samurai_sarah]

Carry on here: