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Josh, Anna and the Ms 15: now with Mason


laPapessaGiovanna

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Sorry to interrupt the panda fun but Josh isn't even 30??????? I mean, I realize this is easily accessible information but I thought he was mid 30s at least. For the first time, I actually feel a little bad for him. He did terrible things. I think he is a scummy person who has not even attempted to make up for his crimes. But he's 29, and we talk as if his life is over. He has 5 kids and doesn't seem to want more, doesn't seem happy in his marriage or his life, and must be wrestling with some serious issues. Maybe its just punishment for what he did...but he was a teenager. Not defending his actions. It's just, even teenagers who do terrible things can go to juvie and serve their time and be rehabilitated. True Josh has not redeemed or rehabilitated himself. And I don't know how he can. (Maybe by moving away from his sisters, getting therapy, and issuing a true public apology, then working towards a non-offensive charity?) But this situation is just so sad. I hate what he did and I dislike him but it's all just very sad.

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If you think about it logically, Anna probably is happier with Josh. She has no job skills and she clearly loves her babies. Not being with them 24/7 because of shared custody while working long hours at a minimum wage job probably would be miserable for her. As for finding real love, that would be awesome, but realistically what are the chances of her finding an uber conservative man who doesn't believe in birth control and wants to marry a divorced woman with tons of young children any time soon? She has a lot to lose in the spending time with her babies department, and not much to gain in the romance department. I predict that Josh leaves her someday, not visa versa. Josh could easily find the casual, no-strings love life he was looking for. He has everything to gain in the love life department, and nothing to lose in the kid department since obviously Anna would let him see the kids whenever and he doesn't want to do 24/7 childcare. The only thing Josh would really lose by leaving is his parents' support, but I feel like Jim-Bob is stingy and not funneling much money to his kids anyway. Or maybe guilt is making Josh stay.

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I am sure He has enough people in his own circle pitying him and I am equally sure he has had plenty of self pity. He doesn’t need anymore. 

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To each their own, of course. But that's not how pity (or any other emotion) works for me, I don't think you can run out of something because you've used it up on one person. 

I have pity/sympathy for Josh. I think he has a lot to ask forgiveness for (which I don't believe he's truly done yet - I get the feeling that he's not sorry for what he did, but more sorry he got caught) but at the end of the day, I think Josh is a victim of his circumstances and I do feel sorry for him. I think if he was able to break free from his toxic family and receive actual, real help, there would be hope for him. 

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I think there's room or ambivalence with Josh's situation--and that people can pity him and hold him 100% responsible for the shitty and reprehensible things he's done. Who knows how he would have grown up in a typical environment that viewed sex in a healthy manner, rather than the stifling-in-every-way atmosphere of the Duggar household. Or a household that got him legitimate help when the FIRST molestation happened instead of sending him to do some construction and letting it fester. Yes, he's responsible for his wrong choices and his horrendous actions, but he was also raised in a way that encourage and facilitated his behavior.  And for that, I pity him.

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I believe he is a troubled individual crippled by his upbringing who needed help decades ago and did not get it. Whether he is truly sorry we can’t know and it’s not our business anyway.I  don’t believe he is an irredeemable monster who deserves to be separated from his children.

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12 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

This is what happens when you defund Planned Pandahood. :shakehead:

All those unplanned Panda Babies. 

Seriously though, I wish fundies would procreate like pandas. The world would be a better place! 

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I hope people feel pity/sympathy for young black men who commit crimes and were raised in abusive/neglectful economically stressed homes by undereducated parents in crime-ridden neighborhoods with abysmal schools. They more often than not get jail even when the crimes are non-violent, no soft landing for them like with Josh. 

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3 hours ago, viii said:

Why? 

Because everything that's gone "wrong" for him is the result of his own stupid fucking choices. 

Because he's a molester.

Because he's a cheat.

Because he's a liar.

Because he went to Jesus Jail and think everything's OK now.

I could go on, but I won't.

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1 minute ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Because everything that's gone "wrong" for him is the result of his own stupid fucking choices. 

Because he's a molester.

Because he's a cheat.

Because he's a liar.

Because he went to Jesus Jail and think everything's OK now.

I could go on, but I won't.

I disagree. I feel very little pity for Josh (especially as compared to others, including his victims), and I don't pity him at all for having to reap the consequences of his own adult actions. But he didn't choose to be born into a cult, he didn't choose to be brainwashed and psychologically (at the very least) abused from infancy, and it was his parents' choice to not get proper treatment and intervention for him as a young teen. You can despise someone, pity them, and hold them responsible for their actions all at the same time. That's pretty much where I fall with Josh.

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2 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

But he didn't choose to be born into a cult, he didn't choose to be brainwashed and psychologically (at the very least) abused from infancy, and it was his parents' choice to not get proper treatment and intervention for him as a young teen.

True, but he did know what he did was wrong and did it anyway (molestation). Hence, the confession. 

He also knew violating his wedding vows was wrong, but he did it anyway. 


Others can pity him, but I won't. And I can't.

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@SilverBeach If your comment was even remotely directed at me, I do feel sympathy. A lot more sympathy. I think our justice system has a lot wrong with it, and economic/educational disparity (as well as a multitude of other disparities) are too fucking real and are very serious problems in the US and globally. 

I didn't say Josh should be forgiven. I don't even know how/if he could. But I still think its ok to find the whole situation just sad. And I hadn't gotten there before. I was disgusted and angered like everyone else, but for whatever reason now I'm also sad. 

And also I truly didn't mean to start a disagreement! I completely understand why some people would be just 100% contempt/disgust/anger. 

And I agree with @viii about agreeing to disagree. I like everyone on FJ except trolls and we can't be a hive mind 100%.

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2 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

True, but he did know what he did was wrong and did it anyway (molestation). Hence, the confession. 

He also knew violating his wedding vows was wrong, but he did it anyway. 


Others can pity him, but I won't. And I can't.

Everyone does things that they know are wrong. Obviously molestation is a pretty extreme example, but the vast majority of humanity at some point will act in a manner they know to be immoral, such as breaking their wedding vows, stealing from their employer, bullying someone, ignoring suffering when they could do something, etc. If I had no pity for anyone who ever did something that they knew was wrong, I would have no pity for anyone on earth.

There are murderers who I pity. I may still think that their actions were abhorrent, maybe even that they as human beings are abhorrent, that they should be imprisoned for the safety of humanity, etc. but that doesn't necessarily preclude me from pitying them. I'm not saying that anyone has to pity Josh, not at all - I think it's totally valid to not pity him, and like I said, I don't pity him overly much myself - just that it's not logically inconsistent to pity him and also think that he's a bad person who did bad things.

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I think unless you are raised in that kind of atmosphere, it's impossible to fully understand it and grasp it. 

Josh has done some truly horrible things in his life, and I don't necessarily believe he's sorry for all of them, but he's also a victim of his childhood, and I don't think he can be held 100% responsible. 

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I was going to agree to disagree, but this:  

3 minutes ago, viii said:

I don't think he can be held 100% responsible. 

goes against my own morals. Nobody in the world is responsible for ANYTHING that I may (or may not) do. I, alone, am responsible for 100% of my own actions... and also 100% NOT responsible for anyone else's actions.

I was called to serve on a jury for a guy being charged with first-degree murder because he was a passenger in the car that the gunman was driving. A passenger. In a car. Charged with murder. He didn't have a weapon. He wasn't driving the car. But he was charged (and convicted) of first-degree murder. I was excused because during voir dire, I was asked if I believed people could be held accountable for others' actions. I said no. And this poor guy is sitting in jail, rotting. Because he was a passenger. In a car.

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I guess I just don't see it black and white. Josh was raised in an oppressive cult, and that has affected who he is an adult. Not to mention, a lot of this happened when he was a teenager. It's hard enough finding yourself when you're surrounded by a good support system. When you're trying to figure out the world and you're not allowed to ask questions because they will damn you as wicked, a sinner, etc... it's a grey world. Josh has made a boat load of mistakes but no, he is NOT fully responsible for them. Some of that responsibility goes to his parents who raised him in a dysfunctional world and DENIED him the help he so obviously cried out for. 

Again, unless you've been raised in this world, you literally have zero idea how it affects the people raised in it. 

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I can see where he cannot be absolutely fully held responsible for the Actions of a confused, first born  preteen son in a sexually repressed/dysfunctional  home where he was taught from birth Women are put on earth to serve men in one capacity or another.  His parents bungled the matter the first time round and let it escalate. 

 

But an Adult Joshua Duggar absolutely chose to pay a Sex Worker and cheat on his vows. He wasn’t a messed up kid this time. He is 100% responsible for his choices on this one. 

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3 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

I hope people feel pity/sympathy for young black men who commit crimes and were raised in abusive/neglectful economically stressed homes by undereducated parents in crime-ridden neighborhoods with abysmal schools. They more often than not get jail even when the crimes are non-violent, no soft landing for them like with Josh. 

I don't think that pity, sympathy, or compassion are a zero-sum game. I can feel pity for Josh Duggar and feel pity for young African-American men who are incarcerated unfairly. If we acknowledge that environment influences kiddos and whether or not they commit crimes, then it has to work both ways, both for boys like Josh and for African-American boys. You mention that frequently, boys who are juvenile offenders are from abusive/neglectful economically stressed homes and have poor educational opportunities. Are we saying now that the Duggars, pre-TLC, weren't abusive/neglectful, that they weren't economically stressed, or that Josh had an excellent education? Because I beg to differ, there. Just as environment affects other juvenile offenders, so to did it affect Josh. Again, just to reiterate, this in no way absolves him from responsibility for his crimes and immorality. It just gives context and acknowledges that he was brought up in less than ideal circumstances.

I agree with you that the differences in punishment between Josh and other offenders is staggering. And unfair. And frustrates me deeply. And yes, I get angry that his sisters and the other girl didn't get the justice they deserved. And yes, the juvenile justice system is in shambles and is the new Jim Crow, as I've experienced first-hand working with juvenile offenders. I feel pity for them, I feel pity for Josh, I feel pity for all the kiddos who need help and don't get it. And there are a lot of them.

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15 hours ago, neurogirl said:

For the first time, I actually feel a little bad for him. He did terrible things. I think he is a scummy person who has not even attempted to make up for his crimes. But he's 29, and we talk as if his life is over. He has 5 kids and doesn't seem to want more, doesn't seem happy in his marriage or his life, and must be wrestling with some serious issues. Maybe its just punishment for what he did...but he was a teenager. Not defending his actions. It's just, even teenagers who do terrible things can go to juvie and serve their time and be rehabilitated... But this situation is just so sad. I hate what he did and I dislike him but it's all just very sad.

I sort of feel pity for Josh too. I agree, it's such a sad situation all around, especially for Anna and their children. It's sad to see someone so young already have fallen so far, and with five children in tow. He is responsible for his actions and deserved to face consequences, but I also think it's useful to remember how messed up his upbringing was and how that informed his choices. 

And @SilverBeach I definitely have pity for young black men who are unduly punished for crimes without their upbringing and challenges being considered. I have more pity for them than for Josh. Pity isn't some limited quantity, but I understand why you brought it up. White offenders are so much more often "humanized" by the media and even within the trial than black offenders. 

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And for the record - when I'm talking about Josh not being 100% responsible for his actions, I am ONLY referring to teenage Josh. Adult Josh chose to disregard his vows and cheat on his wife. I mean, one could also claim that's a result of not getting the help he needed when he was a teenager, but I do believe that an adult understands things infinitely more than a youth does, which is why he doesn't get a pass from me for the choices he made as an adult. 

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I have plenty of pity/sympathy to go around. I can easily sympathize with others and I actually struggle trying to turn it off sometimes when I logically don't think the person in question deserves sympathy but I still react emotionally.

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36 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I was going to agree to disagree, but this:  

goes against my own morals. Nobody in the world is responsible for ANYTHING that I may (or may not) do. I, alone, am responsible for 100% of my own actions... and also 100% NOT responsible for anyone else's actions.

I was called to serve on a jury for a guy being charged with first-degree murder because he was a passenger in the car that the gunman was driving. A passenger. In a car. Charged with murder. He didn't have a weapon. He wasn't driving the car. But he was charged (and convicted) of first-degree murder. I was excused because during voir dire, I was asked if I believed people could be held accountable for others' actions. I said no. And this poor guy is sitting in jail, rotting. Because he was a passenger. In a car.

That's great in a world where everything is black and white, but I absolutely cannot accept that no one ever bears any responsibility for anyone else's actions, especially when we're talking about parents bearing responsibility for their minor children. If a child is abused until they run away at 18, and they go on to become a criminal, yes, at some point they bear an adult responsibility for their own actions, but that hardly absolves their abusive parents of all responsibility for how their child turned out. And obviously I don't know the details of this particular case, but a person can be guilty of first degree murder even if they didn't physically commit the murder, if they helped to plan, encourage, and/or execute it.

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