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VelociRapture
1 minute ago, Greendoor said:

Clear this for me too please.

What exactly did they suffer?  As a neighbourhood of kids, we at young ages (if I remember say 4 - 9) cavorted inthe buff in the hot hot summer.  My mother wasn't overly impressed and suggested I not do it again.

If it was one of the boys suggesting to get a good luck is that approximately what we are talking about?  He didn't actually penetrate them did he?  

Maybe their "purity" standard is way out of line with main stream thinking.  

Thanks for any clarity any of you may provide.

They were molested by their brother. I’m not going into detail here because 1) it’s been discussed endlessly already 2) the documents are fully available on this forum to anyone wanting to read them and 3) we have victims of sexual assault here and I have no desire to make them read through yet another graphic and disturbing conversation. Suffice to say: he sexually assaulted them, there was no consent, and it was painfully clear how deeply traumatized one of the victims really was in her Police interview years later.

This has nothing to do with their purity standards and was in no way a case where they overreacted to normal teenage behavior. What Josh did was criminal and horrific by any standards. He took advantage of his sisters, two of whom were asleep when he assaulted them and one of whom was only five when he assaulted her. It is in no way comparable to a bunch of kids running around naked in the summer heat - I’m not even sure why you would mention that as a valid comparison. 

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Greendoor

@VelociRapture

My querie included asking why he would not have been criminally charged if the offence met the standard of the law.

He was at an age to be charged where I live, and that I have never understood.  

 

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Jinder Roles
13 minutes ago, Greendoor said:

@VelociRapture

My querie included asking why he would not have been criminally charged if the offence met the standard of the law.

He was at an age to be charged where I live, and that I have never understood.  

 

Because a report was never filed when the events took place (though JB claimed they did report it to a friend who was also a police officer; just that the officer never filed a report. It's unclear what really happened) 

When the now released reports were filed, the statute of limitations had expired and Josh could no longer be charged. 

I believe a detailed sequence of events (as we understand it) was posted on the police report thread. 

 

Edited to say: Disregarding personal views on this lawsuit, the Duggar girls have a legal right to sue. Just as the police department claimed the FOIA laws gave InTouch the right to the redacted reports. And Just as InTouch claims they had the right to release legally obtained documents. 

While parts of this entire debacle are morally questionable and outing victims is downright unethical, we can't really declare what all these parties should be doing because they have the legal right (as well as personal reasons) for doing so. 

It's a messy and sad situation all-around.  

Edited by Jinder Roles
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VelociRapture
1 minute ago, Greendoor said:

@VelociRapture

My querie included asking why he would not have been criminally charged if the offence met the standard of the law.

He was at an age to be charged where I live, and that I have never understood.  

 

 Jim Bob, Michelle, and several other adults are the reason why. They concealed what happened, never filed any police reports, and sent Josh off to do construction work on, I believe, a building owned by Bill Gothard for three months. He then returned home and lived in the same house as four of his victims until he married Anna in the fall of 2008. 

It wasn’t until December 2006 that the assaults were brought to the attention of Police and by then it was too late for him to be charged with any crimes. At the time, the statute of limitations was only 3 years and his final known assault was in March of 2003.

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HarryPotterFan
6 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

Because a report was never filed when the events took place (though JB claimed they did report it to a friend who was also a police officer; just that the officer never filed a report. It's unclear what really happened) 

When the now released reports were filed, the statute of limitations had expired and Josh could no longer be charged. 

The police officer broke the law when he did not file a report. The same guy was also busted later on child pornogrpahy charges, if I remember correctly.

The offense did meet the standards of the law, but the adults in charge are assholes who covered up for him.

ETA: Posted at the same time at @VelociRapture

Edited by HarryPotterFan
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Greendoor
3 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

When the now released reports were filed, the statute of limitations had expired and Josh could no longer be charged. 

That truly sucks and sounds like a miscarriage of justice.  

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HarryPotterFan
1 minute ago, Greendoor said:

That truly sucks and sounds like a miscarriage of justice.  

It truly was. And I believe some of the more law-savvy FJers said that if the adults had gone through the proper channels when this all happened, the records would have been sealed since Turd was a minor.

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VelociRapture
10 minutes ago, HarryPotterFan said:

The police officer broke the law when he did not file a report. The same guy was also busted later on child pornogrpahy charges, if I remember correctly.

The offense did meet the standards of the law, but the adults in charge are assholes who covered up for him.

ETA: Posted at the same time at @VelociRapture

That is correct. The Officer (Joseph Hutchens) gave an interview from prison where he’s currently serving 56 years for child pornography charges. He said he regrets his choice not to report Josh’s crimes and would do things differently if given the chance. He also stated that he didn’t report it because Jim Bob specifically told him about only one of the assaults - he claims not to have known about the four other victims. 

You know it’s a fucked up situation when you aren’t sure who you should trust - the former cop with kiddie porn charges or the reality tv show Dad who concealed the sexual assaults of minors.

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Fluffy14
1 hour ago, Greendoor said:

@VelociRapture

My querie included asking why he would not have been criminally charged if the offence met the standard of the law.

He was at an age to be charged where I live, and that I have never understood.  

 

You can go on youtube to the Megan Kelly interviews. Jill said they didn't even know what Josh did Cuz they were asleep. The parents told them about it after Josh confessed to them. I think Jessa said she didn't even understand what it was he did.

The police reports give a little different story as to what transpired.  Go watch the video on YouTube and you draw your own conclusions.  It's a convoluted mess and nothing they say can give you any conclusive evidence.

The police report states the youngest was crying which could be contributed to remembering the event or even just being brought into the police station and having to talk to strangers.  Nobody can draw any conclusive evidence other than what the police report indicates.

 

Edited by Fluffy14
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SassyPants

If they wanted to sue the appropriate parties for selling away their privacy and protecting a molester, they should sue their dumb assed parents.

NO ONE is more responsible for those molestations than JB and M- Yes, equally to their minor son. They had 14 kids living in a 3 BR rancher...with some of the kids sleeping on the couch, and others sharing beds. Add in hypersexual parents and voila.

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Greendoor

I promise I will never ask another question on here.  

Not being one of you who read and remember, I am obviously unwelcome to ask.

Now shall we all move on. 

Thank you. 

 

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VaSportsMom
10 minutes ago, Greendoor said:

I promise I will never ask another question on here.  

Not being one of you who read and remember, I am obviously unwelcome to ask.

Now shall we all move on. 

Thank you. 

 

You didn't ask a question. You minimized the abuse suffered by 4 young girls at the hands of their brother. Not remembering isn't an excuse and it won't get you a pass here. You can reread the threads at any time and refresh your memory of what went on in that house back then. 

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Fluffy14
1 hour ago, Greendoor said:

I promise I will never ask another question on here.  

Not being one of you who read and remember, I am obviously unwelcome to ask.

Now shall we all move on. 

Thank you. 

 

Too many tough nuts on here. There seems to be unspoken rules and you don't know until you cross them.

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laPapessaGiovanna
3 hours ago, Greendoor said:

I promise I will never ask another question on here.  

Not being one of you who read and remember, I am obviously unwelcome to ask.

Now shall we all move on. 

Thank you. 

 

This wasn't a just a question, let's reread it

6 hours ago, Greendoor said:

Clear this for me too please.

What exactly did they suffer?  As a neighbourhood of kids, we at young ages (if I remember say 4 - 9) cavorted inthe buff in the hot hot summer.  My mother wasn't overly impressed and suggested I not do it again.

If it was one of the boys suggesting to get a good luck is that approximately what we are talking about?  He didn't actually penetrate them did he?  

Maybe their "purity" standard is way out of line with main stream thinking.  And how did the police get involved?  Didn't the parents take him in?  If it were abuse by legal standards surely he would have been charged?

Thanks for any clarity any of you may provide.

This is a series of rhetorical questions and abuse diminishing ones at that. They are the equivalent of "how were you dressed?", "did you smile to him?", "oh but it was just locker room talk right?". The bolded part was what earned my personal fuck you.

1 hour ago, Fluffy14 said:

Too many tough nuts on here. There seems to be unspoken rules and you don't know until you cross them.

Do you remember when some hours ago you wrote this?

14 hours ago, Fluffy14 said:

 

I am fully aware of how harsh FJr's  opinions and judgements are. I can take the heat on here.

So which one is it?

And remember that I read the post you edited out. Where you wrote that (paraphrasing) you liked that on here everyone can say what they think even if others don't agree. Yeah how not. Everything is fine as long as YOU can say whatever you think. As soon as others state what they think and you get your ass handed to you for diminishing abuse and victim blaming then suddenly FJ is "too tough" and "there are unwritten rules". Fuck that shit!

And just to be clear the unwritten rule "don't be an ass or you'll get your ass handed to you" exists and is called FJ forum culture.

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Special friend

I have seen the sentiment here before that, because the Duggar girls / women choose to be on a reality TV show, it was somehow okay that they were outed as survivors of abuse. The reasoning is that they lost the right to privacy.

To me, this is on par with blaming a woman for being raped because she dressed "like a slut". Therefore, she somehow lost her right not to be raped.

No matter what a person chooses to to in life, *it is never okay to be outed against your will as a victim of sexual abuse*. Ever. It is a person's story to tell, or not tell, as they choose.

And trying to present the story in their own terms after it came out against their wishes does not change the situation, IMO.

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VelociRapture
7 hours ago, Fluffy14 said:

You can go on youtube to the Megan Kelly interviews. Jill said they didn't even know what Josh did Cuz they were asleep. The parents told them about it after Josh confessed to them. I think Jessa said she didn't even understand what it was he did.

The police reports give a little different story as to what transpired.  Go watch the video on YouTube and you draw your own conclusions.  It's a convoluted mess and nothing they say can give you any conclusive evidence.

The police report states the youngest was crying which could be contributed to remembering the event or even just being brought into the police station and having to talk to strangers.  Nobody can draw any conclusive evidence other than what the police report indicates.

 

The youngest victim was not crying. The victim crying was the laundry room victim who began crying the moment they asked if they knew why she was there. The youngest victim was assaulted during story time. 

Jill half woke up during her attack. Jessa did not. It’s vsry possible they both claimed to be asleep the whole time as a coping mechanism or a way to protect themselves - it can’t be our fault if we were asleep! - or a way to protect their family - we don’t remember anything so we can’t tell you what happened Megyn Kelly! 

Jinger and Joy were both clearly awake. Neither was interviewed by Kelly and no reason was given. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a combination of them having been awake (meaning they were aware of what was happening) and he fact that neither of them were married when the reports were released.

It’s clear you don’t remember what the reports say. I highly suggest you go back and read through the reports again. 

5 hours ago, Fluffy14 said:

Too many tough nuts on here. There seems to be unspoken rules and you don't know until you cross them.

I didn’t know that not blaming or belittling victims of sexual assault needed to be a written rule. I was under the impression most people here understood how deplorable that is. Apparently I was wrong. 

But for the record - blaming and belittling victims of sexual abuse is wrong and will get you a lot of pushback here. 

(And FYI, every forum on the internet will have unspoken rules. It’s not exclusive to FJ.)

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VelociRapture

@singsingsingExactly. And I’d like to take a moment to remind people that we have a decent number of sexual assault survivors here on FJ - some of them endured the absolute worst abuse and others experienced abuse that was more mild in comparison. There are very likely victims here who experienced the same abuse the Duggar sisters and the unnamed victim did as well. All victims of abuse, regardless of celebrity status, deserve to be treated with respect though and, sadly, some of the people participating in this conversation have not done that. Diminishing the abuse the Duggar sisters and the fifth victim endured is like saying any sexual assault victim on FJ whose abuse doesn’t meet X standards has no right to mention it or complain. That is disgusting in so many ways. 

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JillsFlowerHeadband

Thank you @VelociRapture for your compassionate and sensitive response.

 I had to step back from this thread last night after reading some of the arrogant, self righteous responses from people... my God. We at FJ rightfully decry the fundamentalist view that survivors of sexual abuse, as per Gothard and his “Wisdom (Bullcrap) Booklets” don’t get to feel angry/sad/bitter about what happened to them... don’t we? I think it’s quite frankly, disgusting that people can say that it’s wrong for fundies to invalidate sexual abuse survivors’ experiences and then to turn around and do it themselves. Hypocrisy at its finest!

I got very riled by this whole exchange because (I’m sharing this with his permission because NO ONE should be outed without their permission so I discussed this with him and made sure he’d be alright with me talking about it) Mr JFH is a survivor himself, he was molested by an older cousin over the span of several years. I know I would be livid, absolutely livid if anyone said to him “oh come on, boys experiment all the time, it wasn’t that bad”... my God. My God. I’m sorry that I’m so angry but I just... wow. Yes, the Duggars’ ideology is repugnant but... those girls were abused, and they were abused in a culture where the onus to prevent being abused was on them from a young age. They’ve had enough of that garbage already, they don’t need more blame from random people outside. 

I’m terribly sorry for getting so angry, I just know that if someone told the man I love that the trauma he experienced “didn’t count” or “wasn’t all that bad”... I might just end up being hauled off to jail. 

Edited by JillsFlowerHeadband
Clarify point, I was really angry- sorry!
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VelociRapture

@JillsFlowerHeadbandBig hugs to you and Mr. JFH (if he’s cool with a random internet dinosaur sending him virtual hugs.) I’m so sorry he experienced such a massive breach of trust by his cousin and that he was abused in such a horrible way - I’m grateful, though, that he was brave enough to allow you to share his experience with us. Male victims are overlooked far too often and are deserving of the exact same respect given to any other victim. 

And don’t you ever apologize for getting angry about this. This conversation has taken an absolutely despicable turn and the posters responsible should be ashamed of themselves. You (and anyone else here who was victimized or knows someone who was) have every single right to be angry. 

You also bring up an excellent point. So many of us have criticized Bill Gothard or the Duggars or Gil Bates or IBLP in general for their responses to sexual abuse - the fact that they ignored it or concealed it or belittled it... yet you are absolutely correct in pointing out that some posters have been doing the same exact thing to the Duggar sisters and the fifth victim. FJ is far better than this and I’m beyond disgusted at the attitudes expressed here.*

*To be clear, I feel there’s a massive difference between many posters who have challenged the validity of the lawsuit and posters who have attacked or belittled the actual victims and what they experienced. I’m willing to debate with posters in the first group because that’s how both people learn and grow. The second group? No. There is no tolerating that bullshit.

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SamiKatz
10 hours ago, SassyPants said:

If they wanted to sue the appropriate parties for selling away their privacy and protecting a molester, they should sue their dumb assed parents.

NO ONE is more responsible for those molestations than JB and M- Yes, equally to their minor son. They had 14 kids living in a 3 BR rancher...with some of the kids sleeping on the couch, and others sharing beds. Add in hypersexual parents and voila.

I respectfully disagree with you on this.  Josh and Josh alone is responsible for the molestations.  I am sure there are many,  many instances where people live in equally crowded and crazy circumstances and molestation does not happen.  

JB and Michelle are absolutely responsible for the aftermath and how the situation was handled, but they are not to blame for what Josh did.  He was definitely old enough to know better, and should have been exposed to the consequences of his actions at that time.

I do agree that Jill, Jess, Joy and Jinger should sue their parents for raising them in such an effed up environment though.

Edited by SamiKatz
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SassyPants
15 minutes ago, SamiKatz said:

I respectfully disagree with you on this.  Josh and Josh alone is responsible for the molestations.  I am sure there are many,  many instances where people live in equally crowded and crazy circumstances and molestation does not happen.  

JB and Michelle are absolutely responsible for the aftermath and how the situation was handled, but they are not to blame for what Josh did.  He was definitely old enough to know better, and should have been exposed to the consequences of his actions at that time.

I do agree that Jill, Jess, Joy and Jinger should sue their parents for raising them in such an effed up environment though.

See and this is where I disagree. In order to know things, one needs to be taught and shown the right way via actions. I seriously doubt Josh was taught and shown the right way with regard to his body, sex and relationships. His parents were and are dysfunctional in this area. He was cloistered in that house. His outside influences and community were severely limited. No, this is on JB and M as much as it is on Josh.

You only know what you know, and as we all "know" the Duggars did a piss more job of teaching and mirroring just about everything. If we do not hold the Duggar kids fully accountable for their intellectual and academic deficits d/t the SOTDRT, how can we hold Josh fully accountable for his horrible behaviors? Let's face it, if it wasn't providing some sort of childcare for their parents' kids, completing household tasks to free-up JB and M's time, or reading from the Bible, these kids weren't doing anything or learning anything else of substance.

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Jaeniduggar

Ok, I read this thread for a while, being a bit apprehensive about getting involved, but here it is. My obsession with the Duggars went from mild interest to an obsession when the scandal hit the air.

Because I had similar things happen to me. My brother molested me (in hindsight heavily) from 6 years old on for a few years. I didn't understand that it was wrong what he asked from me. He never really forced me either. He was four years older and able to convince me, to beg me, to do it. Innocent little me didn't know better. It stopped when we moved and we had coincidentally our room in two different floors. I have never had PTSD. I have never been to a therapist. I have a very fulfilled, sexually active relationship for a while now. I have had other sexually active relationships before, even a ONS. From what I can judge, I live a happy, purposeful life. This does not negate my experience and does not make me any less of a victim. Every victim is still a victim. Like a poster before said, this is not abuse Olympics. No matter how a victim chooses/can live their lives post-abuse does not take away the experience.

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