Duggars by the Dozen 30 - On a Mission from GOD!

[laPapessaGiovanna]

40 minutes ago, VaSportsMom said:

This line of thinking is complete bullshit. I'm shocked that none of those therapists & "PHDS" explained this to you. Shame on them. 

It's perfectly in line with this

1 hour ago, Fluffy14 said:

  I personally don't think what Josh did to any of his sisters was as harsh as people like to think

And this

1 hour ago, Fluffy14 said:

And asking for millions of dollars for their trauma, when their are millions of women who suffered far more gets me highly agitated. 

I am really sorry for what happened to you @Fluffy14. I can see that you feel bad that people can't even stand to hear about your abuse, let alone give you justice. But diminishing other victims abuse and casting judgements based on how victims choose to cope with their traumas and on their life choices are shitty things to do that won't help you nor improve the situation for other victims. Also establishing a scale of measure for victimhood doesn't make much sense, as you too recognise.

ETA and as much as you watch their interviews frame by frame you can't really know the depth of their trauma. You also have no right to tell them their narration is right or wrong, whatever amount of abuse you may have experienced yourself.

Personally I don't like in the least that many felt free to judge them for their choice to sue over the breach of their right to privacy. It doesn't matter how public their lives are, the only people authorised to divulge abuse victims identities are the victims themselves. Whoever redacted those documents did a very poor job and should pay the consequences.

My compassion doesn't extend to the awful parents. If this really was their attempt at money grabbing then I am glad to see it thwarted.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Disconnected personality disorder and assholery are two different things. The fact that both can sometimes be found in the same person at the same time doesn't necessarily establish a causality link between them. With this I mean that suffering isn't a good reason for being an asshole towards other victims.

46 minutes ago, Fluffy14 said:

Everybody wants to give the Duggars a break.

Which Duggars? The formerly underage victims? The awful parents? The perpetrator brother? They aren't one and the same.

46 minutes ago, Fluffy14 said:

They choose their own narrative.

As it is the victims fucking RIGHT! I bet that you wouldn't be pleased if I tried to speculate about your abuse on the basis of your posts and diminish your story because if things you said. You have the right to your story and how you choose to narrate it is not my business. If they choose to minimise it and not publicly address it any more it's their business. We can feel sad for this, but it's not our place to judge them and their choices.

46 minutes ago, Fluffy14 said:

I'm not saying anything I have to say is right. It's just things I think about.

Exactly, all this is just your opinion. But it's also harsh and assholeish judgement of other victims that can't be excused away by a "but I suffered more". Think about it.

46 minutes ago, Fluffy14 said:

And that money they wanted in their lawsuit? money doesn't fix what's inside you. It can help get you there but you are the only person who can fix you.

True, but not a reason to deny their right to agency. As I said they had a right to privacy as victims. This right wasn't respected. Then they have the right to seek compensation. It seems pretty straightforward to me.

ETA following your reasoning very few lawsuits that seek compensation for victims of abuse, accidents, negligence etc would be justifiable.

[cascarones]

@Fluffy14 Thank you for explaining so fully and I'm so incredibly sorry you've had to go through that. My past isn't picture perfect and rosy, so it's a touchy topic for me too and I just get protective feelings for these girls (and any victim) when abuse is downplayed or treated glibly. I'm so glad you're doing well and have gotten to address it. I'll leave it to others to comment more, but I completely understand what you said about your husband, discussing what's been done to you with someone you're planning to be intimate with or are intimate with is a torture all on its own.  I got to have that discussion on my own terms (with some liquid courage), hopefully you did too, but the Duggar girls didn't because of shit shittery attempts at redaction.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Just to clarify so it doesn't seem I am talking to myself. I replied to a poster quoting just some tidbits of her post, then she thought better of her post and, being into the allowed time frame, edited it out. The helpmeet team hid the post because it was just an empty box.

[2manyKidzzz]

@Fluffy14 Bless you and I am so very sorry for all you have been through. 

[Fluffy14]

2 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Just to clarify so it doesn't seem I am talking to myself. I replied to a poster quoting just some tidbits of her post, then she thought better of her post and, being into the allowed time frame, edited it out. The helpmeet team hid the post because it was just an empty box.

I just want you to know that just as they are choosing their narrative, so am I.  And not only that just am I choosing my own judgement stick and opinion about them, you are judging me just as harshly by your own measuring stick and your own opinions and narrative.

It's the victims own fucking right!!  Yup I have a right to view things through my victims lens.

And yes I deleted it. It was 3 am here I read what I wrote and thought it's 3 a too tired bullshit coming out of my brain and I deleted it.

Because if anything on here the farther you go in thought and explanations the harsher the critics and judgement are.

So you dear writer are doing to me exactly what I did to the Duggar family.

[Fluffy14]

4 hours ago, cascarones said:

discussing what's been done to you with someone you're planning to be intimate with or are intimate with is a torture all on its own.  I

Thanks for your kind words. My husband was an ass.  He just flat out screamed at me that he didn't want to hear my shit. His reaction was out of anger and complete repulsion. But those words lasted for 15 years until he told me one day he just didn't know how to cope with what was coming out of my mouth. And that he did love me and couldn't even know how to process that people had done what they did.

IT's a harsh reality. 

[KelseyAnn]

46 minutes ago, Fluffy14 said:

I just want you to know that just as they are choosing their narrative, so am I.  And not only that just am I choosing my own judgement stick and opinion about them, you are judging me just as harshly by your own measuring stick and your own opinions and narrative.

It's the victims own fucking right!!  Yup I have a right to view things through my victims lens.

And yes I deleted it. It was 3 am here I read what I wrote and thought it's 3 a too tired bullshit coming out of my brain and I deleted it.

Because if anything on here the farther you go in thought and explanations the harsher the critics and judgement are.

So you dear writer are doing to me exactly what I did to the Duggar family.

People aren't mad that you had an opinion, we're mad because your opinion was dismissive and victim-blaming and your following 'apology' along the lines of, "I'm sorry you fjers got mad at me." 

Being a victim yourself is horrible but that doesn't give you the right to be judgemental of other victims and the way they handle things. I don't like logging onto here and having to read that victims should be hiding themselves and there bodies from any attention. I have diagnoses from my own childhood and that doesn't mean I get to just say what i want and then get mad when people call me out. 

[Fluffy14]

10 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

"I'm sorry you fjers got mad at me." 

No that wasn't the reason at all.

The reason was that I realized that there was the very real possibility that victims on this board were reading what I said and I realized that my opinion about the Duggar's was translating into their own personal experience. 

That is why I was so apologetic. I realized that I was possible hurting people on here. 

My compassion for the whole Duggar's as a family and individuals has run short and has been running on empty probably for at least a year.  My judgments on here are on the Duggar's exclusively.  

I am fully aware of how harsh FJr's  opinions and judgements are. I can take the heat on here.

 

[KelseyAnn]

It shouldn't matter if a victim is a Duggar or not, if a victim is a man or woman, or any other factor. A victim is a victim and there isn't a set of requirements you need to chek before you speak out about it. 

[Fluffy14]

2 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

It shouldn't matter if a victim is a Duggar or not, if a victim is a man or woman, or any other factor. A victim is a victim and there isn't a set of requirements you need to chek before you speak out about it. 

Thanks. It's my opinion.  Victim's or not. 

I can judge them on what I see on TV which is exactly what everyone does on here every day. People nitpick the freaking shit off these women on a daily basis about every freaking thing they do or say. They are vicitim's of their upbringing but that doesn't stop the judgment or the criticism does it?  Every day there is some criticism about their choices about how they deal with their victimhood in other areas. But that is okay. Joy is also a victim of not having a choice or an opinion in her life and when it came down to her inability to choose a dress.......oooooooh watch the judgment fly!!! Where was the  victim blaming police then?

[Greendoor]

@Fluffy14  I bow completely before your posts.  I have led a charmed life by comparison to yours; and I accept that you know more about all aspects of the abuse/recovery process than I do.

To everyone else, compassion is a beautiful thing.  Fluffy14 we know.  The Duggars peddle BS on everything.  

I wish you a thousand peacefilled lifetimes to help assuage your pain experinced in this exisitence.  

 

[Fluffy14]

57 minutes ago, Greendoor said:

@Fluffy14  I bow completely before your posts.  I have led a charmed life by comparison to yours; and I accept that you know more about all aspects of the abuse/recovery process than I do.

To everyone else, compassion is a beautiful thing.  Fluffy14 we know.  The Duggars peddle BS on everything.  

I wish you a thousand peacefilled lifetimes to help assuage your pain experinced in this exisitence.  

 

Greendoor. I wish I knew how to do the @greendoor thing but I'm clueless on computer things. Thanks for you kind words and compassion.

 Just find the Duggars like to Milk things for all its worth, gotta get every last drop , every last penny that can be squeezed from every opportunity.   If at all there was/is a chance to squeeze any money out of anything or get something for free, it will be them.

And that belief seems to go across the board to each adult in that family. Look at Anna being peddled out in the midst of devastating trauma. They stop at nothing.

I just find this lawsuit far more about this than being a victim about anything.

I think what really tipped the scales for me was when Josh filed with the girls. Then Josh realized that he shouldn't do that so he filed his own. 

This family has patterned themselves as one cohesive lump. You get one,  you get them all mentality. All of them are joined as if extensions of those paper cutouts of people , like they do with snowflakes....when you fold the paper and get accordion templates of a man.

To me when Josh joined that lawsuit the compassion for victims ended. They would have had to have been in agreement for that to happen. The Duggar women's names were on those documents but it wasn't about compensation for them, it was about compensation for the lot of them for they do nothing on an individual basis.

 I find it insidious to have a perpetrator and victims on the same document and to me in the core of my being, it said to me they don't see themselves as victims. It is posturing, and it is a dam good way to get some coin out of the system. It's a dam good way to reinstate their presence,  their force, and their weight on the powers that be.

Jimbob Duggar does not like being seen as weak. He doesn't like his family to be seen as weak, and to me this is what it was all about . Not being victims at all. If they can fire back at anything or anyone individual they will. 

Where's the christian love? Where's the forgiveness? Where's turn the other cheek?

Turn the other cheek my ass. If they saw themselves as victims, they would be out pounding the pavement,  hammering home victim rights to any sexual abuse charity out there. If they felt so dam victimized by the system they would be out there advocating in real life, for real victims of sexual abuse. They would be using their family as an example of Godly humility doing conferences across the state and country helping victims of sexual abuse in the churches. Calling pastors, and lay people to account for the vile things done in God's name. Where are they?

Ah but no . That isn't happening at all. It won't bring them power and millions of bucks. That takes drive that takes knowing what victims face. Just like Erin from Erin's law. That girl gets it. She is an advocate, she did it out of little means. The Duggars are millionaires and could really give a flying fuck to real victims.

And this is what is behind all of my statements and judgements. I leave my compassion for people who have some humility about what was done to them . Not these people.

 

 

[2manyKidzzz]

I do not really understand at all how Josh could file such a lawsuit. What a lotta crap.

[KelseyAnn]

1 hour ago, Fluffy14 said:

Thanks. It's my opinion.  Victim's or not. 

I can judge them on what I see on TV which is exactly what everyone does on here every day. People nitpick the freaking shit off these women on a daily basis about every freaking thing they do or say. They are vicitim's of their upbringing but that doesn't stop the judgment or the criticism does it?  Every day there is some criticism about their choices about how they deal with their victimhood in other areas. But that is okay. Joy is also a victim of not having a choice or an opinion in her life and when it came down to her inability to choose a dress.......oooooooh watch the judgment fly!!! Where was the  victim blaming police then?

Are you honestly fucking comparing the agency of children to the agency adults have? That's disgusting. Those kids did not choose to be fucking molested. The things they do now as adults, they choose. Therfore the things they do now are open for criticism. 

Comparing Joy being unable to chose to a dress to how Joy deals with her molestation is disguting. 

1 hour ago, Greendoor said:

@Fluffy14  I bow completely before your posts.  I have led a charmed life by comparison to yours; and I accept that you know more about all aspects of the abuse/recovery process than I do.

To everyone else, compassion is a beautiful thing.  Fluffy14 we know.  The Duggars peddle BS on everything.  

I wish you a thousand peacefilled lifetimes to help assuage your pain experinced in this exisitence.  

 

Compassion IS a beautiful thing. Which is why the Duggar girls deserve compassion in this matter. When it happened they were little girls!

[laPapessaGiovanna]

1 hour ago, Fluffy14 said:

I just want you to know that just as they are choosing their narrative, so am I.  And not only that just am I choosing my own judgement stick and opinion about them, you are judging me just as harshly by your own measuring stick and your own opinions and narrative.

It's the victims own fucking right!!  Yup I have a right to view things through my victims lens.

And yes I deleted it. It was 3 am here I read what I wrote and thought it's 3 a too tired bullshit coming out of my brain and I deleted it.

Because if anything on here the farther you go in thought and explanations the harsher the critics and judgement are.

So you dear writer are doing to me exactly what I did to the Duggar family.

Sorry but no. I haven't said anything to you as a victim, not a word if not to express my empathy. I talked to you as a poster. As such the only narrative you have a right to is your own story. Being yourself a victim doesn't give you a free pass to judge other victims. You can't claim a right to tell how others should tell their stories and cope with their traumas. Or better you can express your opinion but you can't demand that I accept your opinion without expressing a criticism. This has zero to do with you being yourself a victim and all to do with your assholeish comments about other victims. I can't explain this any better, sorry.

[Queen]

Abuse really fucks you (general you) up. I'm so sorry @Fluffy14 for what happened to you and sorry that people didn't react well when you tried to tell them. There are other people out there who have experienced similar things to the same extent. (No, not talking about the Duggar girls this time, even though they also experienced molestation) You are not alone <3    

[KelseyAnn]

I am absolutely disgusted with the way this thread has gone. I honestly cannot believe in 2017 that I am having to defend women without agency who were abused when they were just little girls. I cannot believe people are finding fault with the way they are coping. How dare anyone criticize someone for that. Are the Duggar girls dealing with it in healthy ways? No! But how could they! They haven't been given the skills and tools in order to do so! You don't just wake up one day after living in a home that literally controls your thoughts and feelings and decides what happened was wrong and that you need help. It took me until I was 22 to reach that point! Poor Joy is technically still a teenager, for God's sake! 

And maybe they do want the money, so what? Maybe after the way they've internalized every bad feeling about that event in question the Duggar girls' feel that is the only way they can punish someone who hurt them. Is there anger at Josh maybe being misplaced? Sure. But the fact remains that being outed like that hurts and it IS embarrasing. Do you know how badly it hurts to notice people stop looking at you lie a person and start looking at you instead like a victim? 

And as for victim-status giving you the right to judge others in the situation- it DOESN'T. NONE of us were there, nobody knows everything that happened. For all we know it could have been much worse than described. And all instances of abuse are different, nobody can say they went through the exact same thing and nobody SHOULD say it either. 

[VelociRapture]

5 minutes ago, Fluffy14 said:

I just find this lawsuit far more about this than being a victim about anything.

I think what really tipped the scales for me was when Josh filed with the girls. Then Josh realized that he shouldn't do that so he filed his own. 

....

To me when Josh joined that lawsuit the compassion for victims ended. They would have had to have been in agreement for that to happen. The Duggar women's names were on those documents but it wasn't about compensation for them, it was about compensation for the lot of them for they do nothing on an individual basis.

 I find it insidious to have a perpetrator and victims on the same document and to me in the core of my being, it said to me they don't see themselves as victims. It is posturing, and it is a dam good way to get some coin out of the system. It's a dam good way to reinstate their presence,  their force, and their weight on the powers that be.

Jimbob Duggar does not like being seen as weak. He doesn't like his family to be seen as weak, and to me this is what it was all about . Not being victims at all.

And this is what is behind all of my statements and judgements. I leave my compassion for people who have some humility about what was done to them . Not these people.

 

 

Except the sisters petitioned to have him removed from their lawsuit. It was only after that that he filed his own lawsuit:

https://www.google.com/amp/m.eonline.com/amp/news/878543/josh-duggar-s-sisters-want-court-to-deny-his-request-to-join-their-privacy-lawsuit

So no. The Duggars absolutely were not all in agreement about Josh's decision to join their lawsuit. To state otherwise is completely false.

I’m very sorry you were victimized. You are of course allowed your opinions, but these young women absolutely have every right to sue those responsible for releasing those horribly redacted reports. Victims have rights to privacy. Celebrity status and the sins of their parents do not suddenly negate that right. 

[KelseyAnn]

8 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Victims have rights to privacy. Celebrity status and the sins of their parents do not suddenly negate that right. 

 

Amen! And if you wouldn't dismiss or criticize the way a 5-year-old-victim handles their trauma, you shouldn't critique the way a 15 0r 55 0r 100 year old handles their trauma. 

[Fluffy14]

Velocirapture, point taken they needed to do that. But out of curiosity was it because it had to be done that way because of legal stuff and laws?  Or maybe he wanted to widraw and couldn't.  It had to be by the girls.I think some law pro on here said legally he couldn't do it . I just can't remember.

It doesn't change for me anything really that he filed to sue though. It just points to some really really fucked up everything that comes out of that whole family.

 

[calimojo]

Here's my take on this in a very broad way.  First off, if memory serves, there were many on here who reacted somewhat skeptically when the lawsuit was first announced.  And here is why,  Because of JB. 

JB is a grifter and an opportunist of the first order.  I think that the first reaction by many, was that JB was just using this lawsuit as a very cynical way to make a buck out of this terrible situation.  This would be very consistent with JB and how he operates. 

But, I think for many of us, after thinking about it a bit, and revisiting the redacted documents,  there was a realization that while the release of info may technically have been legal,  It was unseemly.   We have a practice in this country not to name the victims/survivors of sexual abuse, rape etc.  And, because of their fame, the info in that document made it too easy to really determine who was who.  Having this sort of thing go public in the way it went public for the Duggars was probably really traumatizing for the survivors of the assaults. 

We all agree Josh is terrible, We all agree JB and M are awful.  We all agree that Victims should not be blamed and hold no responsibility for what was done to them.   While I am not versed in the legalities of the FOIA,  even if no laws have been broken, it still really sucks for these girls to have been outed. 

Should they be able to make money off of this?  Well,  That is the question.  They certainly have the right to try.  Is their motivation just for quick bucks?  Maybe, but their motivation does not appear to be central to the lawsuit.   If there is a legal precedent for their legal assertions, they are within their legal right to pursue rectification.   And, while it is easy to assume, given that we know what a slimy SOB their dad is,  that they just are doing this for the money,  we ourselves are jumping to conclusions on this.  They may feel passionately that they are doing this in order to raise important questions about FOIA. 

They may be doing this, because as past victims, they are tired of continuing to see themselves in that light.  This may be about them gaining some sense of control over what has happened to them. 

I am not going to judge them for going forward.  In fact,  as time has passed, I actually judge myself, because I and if most of you are honest, have to face up to the fact that there was some level of enjoyment when this family scandal broke.  We liked to see this sanctimonious family have a comeuppance.  But at the core, we can't forget are 4 sisters, and one other young woman, who suffered abuse.  It may have been worse than we know and they had to live through it the first time with what appears to have been a shockingly bad series of decisions by their parents, and then they had to live through it as the butt of many jokes and speculations, some of which were shockingly cruel. 

 

[VelociRapture]

22 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

Amen! And if you wouldn't dismiss or criticize the way a 5-year-old-victim handles their trauma, you shouldn't critique the way a 15 0r 55 0r 100 year old handles their trauma. 

Exactly. Every victim is unique and every assault is unique. Not everyone will react in the same way to the same type of trauma. It’s absolutely wrong and unfair to judge how anyone reacts for that fact alone. Even other victims or survivors have no right passing that type of judgement and I find the direction this thread (and the Harvey Weinstein thread for a short bit) is taking to be deeply disturbing. 

I don’t like the Duggars. I think they’re shitty people with disgusting beliefs and the world would be better off without their reality show. None of that means I think these young woman deserved what was done to them and it certainly doesn’t mean I have a right to belittle or delegitimize what these young women experienced as children or the fact that they were so publicly outed as victims without their consent. 

@calimojoThank you for your thoughts. I’ve been open on here about my evolving thoughts on this topic the past few months. When news about the lawsuit first broke I was deeply skeptical... but after months of reflecting and reading - both here and elsewhere - I’m very much of the opinion that the release of such poorly redacted reports absolutely warrants a lawsuit. Whether they’ll win is a separate matter, but if nothing else then hopefully this will spark some changes to Arkansas law that will help protect victim’s rights to privacy.

By the way, the Judge cited an Arkansas state statute in a recent ruling. That statute appears to state something regarding victim’s rights and, if I remember right, could very well trump FOIA. If that’s the case, then the release of the reports at all could very well have been illegal because there was simply no way to protect their identities through redacting alone.

[Jess]

44 minutes ago, Fluffy14 said:

Velocirapture, point taken they needed to do that. But out of curiosity was it because it had to be done that way because of legal stuff and laws?  Or maybe he wanted to widraw and couldn't.  It had to be by the girls.I think some law pro on here said legally he couldn't do it . I just can't remember.

It doesn't change for me anything really that he filed to sue though. It just points to some really really fucked up everything that comes out of that whole family.

 

Him filing to join the girls was improper legal procedure. The girls lawyers didn't necessarily have to oppose the judge probably would have denied even if there was no opposition since it was wrong procedure. The girls lawyer did oppose though so it's fairly safe to say that the whole family couldn't have known before hand and they didn't all get behind it.

 

So, after reading the judges opinion it seems like Josh has one defendant the state department left and he hasn't even served them yet. The judge basically said he couldn't dismiss because they hadn't made a motion to dismiss yet. So, his case is pretty much done even if he does serve the last defendant. The girls have the individual defendants left who are appealing they have made motions to stay discovery pending appeal and the judge is waiting on the girl's opposition papers to that motion before ruling. If they get out (on this appeal) it seems like it will be on grounds of state law giving them immunity. 

Governmental entities can have big pockets too but I doubt Arkansas ones do. However, I am not sure if they are willing to indemnify (legal speak for pay the legal fees and any judgment) the individual defendants. If not then there will be a lot of fighting about whether they have to unwillingly. If it's decided they don't there is no chance of a big payout unless one of those people is a millionaire (unlikely on government salary).

Also, if they are self insured it's unlikely to settle as self insured parties hate to settle, a lot of time you have to have the city council, or county board (whatever it's called in hat area) approve a settlement and this would be bad PR for elected officials. Think about it like this if you are running for office in Arkansas would you like to vote to give a duggar 1 million dollars or would you rather lose a court case for 10 million and blame it on that an appointed federal judge?

As for jury awards the general rule is the more educated the jury the less likely the jury is to give a big award against a governmental entity. 

[Greendoor]

Clear this for me too please.

What exactly did they suffer?  As a neighbourhood of kids, we at young ages (if I remember say 4 - 9) cavorted inthe buff in the hot hot summer.  My mother wasn't overly impressed and suggested I not do it again.

If it was one of the boys suggesting to get a good luck is that approximately what we are talking about?  He didn't actually penetrate them did he?  

Maybe their "purity" standard is way out of line with main stream thinking.  And how did the police get involved?  Didn't the parents take him in?  If it were abuse by legal standards surely he would have been charged?

Thanks for any clarity any of you may provide.