Catholic Stories

[Cleopatra7]

I did a search, and didn't see a pre-existing thread for this, so I decided it's high time FJer be introduced to the pope. No, not the Argentinian who lives in Rome, the other pope. You know, the one who lives in Kansas and was elected by a conclave that consisted of his parents and a couple of random others:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b96WxyxPfOY(65 minute documentary on His Holiness made by an incredulous third party)

https://www.youtube.com/user/PopeMichael(official Youtube channel of the "pope")

http://pope-michael.com/ (official website of the "pontiff" himself)

"Pope Michael" and his handful of followers are conclavists, traditionalists who not only take the sedevacantist position made famous by Mel Gibson (i.e., all the post-Vatican II popes are invalid and heretics), but take it to its logical conclusion by electing their own pope. Conclavists are so nutty that even other radtrads look down on them, because no one's going to take you seriously when you cosplay as the pope. Not even Richard "denying the Holocaust and loving it" Williamson has had the audacity to declare himself pope. I do feel a tad sympathetic for Phil Friedl, the twenty-something naif who decides to become a seminarian in Michael's fake seminary, since I remember what it's like to be young, confused, and looking for god in all the wrong places. Based on my Googling, it seems like he's still with Michael, serving as his "papal secretary."

Given the constant discussion about Jinger wearing pants and what this might mean in terms of her beliefs, Michael's mother is a good example of how that doesn't really matter. Based on her own testimony, While we don't see her wearing pants, Michael's mother worked at a TV station during the 1950s and 60s, had only two children, and presumably had some sort of post-secondary education. But it's really a very special kind of Catholic fundie who not only thinks the SSPX are "too liberal" (Michael was an SSPX seminarian in the 1970s and the family attended SSPX chapels during the same time, but they become disillusioned with the group for reason they never dignify) but elects her own son as pope.

[nausicaa]

I remember reading about this guy while I was in college!

My favorite part of the whole thing was a line on his old website below his phone number: "Please call before 9pm, as Pope Michael lives with his mother and she goes to bed early."

[Howl]

11 hours ago, nausicaa said:

"Please call before 9pm, as Pope Michael lives with his mother and she goes to bed early."

Perfection.

[Cleopatra7]

11 hours ago, nausicaa said:

I remember reading about this guy while I was in college!

My favorite part of the whole thing was a line on his old website below his phone number: "Please call before 9pm, as Pope Michael lives with his mother and she goes to bed early."

I wonder how "Pope Michael" is financing himself, since his Pope cosplay seems to be a full-time job. It wouldn't surprise me if his mother is using her Social Security checks or her husband's pension to fund his two man "Vatican." 

[47of74]

Francis received the European version of the Chevy Bolt from Opel.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/pope-francis-gifted-opel-ampera-e/

Quote

Vatican City is determined to become the first "carbon-dioxide-free" country in the world (yes, it's its own nation and not just a city). And it's getting a little help from Opel.

Opel presented Pope Francis with the keys to a new Ampera-e during the conference "Laudato Sì: The Sustainability of Communication and Innovation." The conference focused on sustainability in the 21st century. To that end, Opel, Vatican City and Italian energy company Enel promised to create a sustainable mobility program for the smallest state in the world.

 

[47of74]

So in one Illinois Catholic Diocese unless a spouse in a same sex marriage repents no communion, last rites, or funerals for them.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/06/23/534127330/illinois-bishop-decrees-no-communion-funeral-rites-for-same-sex-spouses

Ugh.  Guys like him and his fellow Illinois Bishop Jenky are big reasons why I'm not a Catholic any more. 

 

[Destiny]

:/

No last rites or funerals offers them no chance to "repent" though right? Isn't that what last rites are for? (Not a catholic here)

[47of74]

Just now, Destiny said:

:/

No last rites or funerals offers them no chance to "repent" though right? Isn't that what last rites are for? (Not a catholic here)

Actually these days instead of last rites people get the anointing of the sick.  It's not only for people about to cross over, but also for people who are ill, injured, or about to face medical procedures.  I've had it a couple times already.

[louisa05]

I don't know if this will go unchallenged. According to Canon Law, any person who was baptized and confirmed has a right to a funeral mass.

[Childless]

And thank you for reminding me why I don't bother with church anymore.

[Destiny]

Actually these days instead of last rites people get the anointing of the sick.  It's not only for people about to cross over, but also for people who are ill, injured, or about to face medical procedures.  I've had it a couple times already.

But what are they actually for? Are they requests for healing and protection from harm, or is it intended to help the person pass into the next life? I'm not really clear what they entail.

[louisa05]

2 minutes ago, Destiny said:

But what are they actually for? Are they requests for healing or is it intended to help the person pass into the next life. I'm not really clear what they entail.

For those nearing death, they are typically given the opportunity to receive penance at the time that a priest comes to do Anointing of the Sick. This is kind of why the Sacrament of Anointing has been viewed as preparation for death. The Sacrament is often done in conjunction with giving the Eucharist as well. But the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick does not require confession or receiving Eucharist (both of those are actually different sacraments). 

My dad was anointed twice at the end of his life, once three weeks prior to his death when a priest came to hear his confession and officially "receive" him back into the church after a long absence (his mother had a fight with a priest when he was 14 and pulled the family out of church--so he never made his own decision to leave). At that time, the priest heard his confession and gave him communion privately then anointed him when my mother and the friend staying with them at the time returned to the room. Prayers/blessings used in anointing ask for strength, healing and peace so can be used at any time. Many Catholics request it multiple times during severe illness, before surgeries, etc...

He was anointed the second time two days before he died. He had been asking for the priest and we could not get a hold of the parish. At hospice, my brother called a priest we knew from our days in Catholic high school and he came and anointed him. He could no longer speak much or swallow much. Instead of hearing his confession, the priest prayed an "apostolic pardon" for him in our presence, then anointed him and gave him a tiny piece of a host (a crumb, really). 

[Destiny]

Thank you. I honestly didn't know. It seems like refusing to allow those for same sex couples is a SEVERELY dick move. :/

I'm horrified.

[louisa05]

5 minutes ago, Destiny said:

Thank you. I honestly didn't know. It seems like refusing to allow those for same sex couples is a SEVERELY dick move. :/

I'm horrified.

Especially because Anointing of the Sick is a sacrament that non-Catholic Christians are allowed to receive. 

Priests are, in most cases, not allowed to deny someone a sacrament under Canon Law. There are only a few exceptions to that. I'm not sure where this bishop gets off thinking he is allowed to write in his own exceptions. 

[47of74]

55 minutes ago, Destiny said:

Thank you. I honestly didn't know. It seems like refusing to allow those for same sex couples is a SEVERELY dick move. :/

I'm horrified.

That was my first thought as well, that this was a serious dick move on the part of the Bishop.  This is a church that had no problems providing funerals for the very worst of humanity, so the Bishop should have kept his self righteous counsel to himself about who is and who is not worthy of church funerals.

[Cleopatra7]

1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

Especially because Anointing of the Sick is a sacrament that non-Catholic Christians are allowed to receive. 

Priests are, in most cases, not allowed to deny someone a sacrament under Canon Law. There are only a few exceptions to that. I'm not sure where this bishop gets off thinking he is allowed to write in his own exceptions. 

I think the rationale is that it is proper to deny the sacraments to a "public sinner" that might scandalize the faithful. This has been used to deny communion to pro-choice politicians. In the case under consideration, the bishop would probably say that entering into a civil same-sex marriage is a public declaration of living in sin and flouting the Church's teachings on marriage and sexuality, and that allowing such persons    a Catholic funeral or the sacrament of Anointing the Sick when they are unrepentant in their sin would send the wrong message to the world in general and other Catholics in particular  (I don't agree with this, I'm just laying out how the bishop would probably justify the situation).

[louisa05]

14 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I think the rationale is that it is proper to deny the sacraments to a "public sinner" that might scandalize the faithful. This has been used to deny communion to pro-choice politicians. In the case under consideration, the bishop would probably say that entering into a civil same-sex marriage is a public declaration of living in sin and flouting the Church's teachings on marriage and sexuality, and that allowing such persons    a Catholic funeral or the sacrament of Anointing the Sick when they are unrepentant in their sin would send the wrong message to the world in general and other Catholics in particular  (I don't agree with this, I'm just laying out how the bishop would probably justify the situation).

Except that in regard to funerals, Canon Law says that any person who was a baptized Catholic is entitled to a Catholic funeral. No exceptions allowed there. Had my father not officially returned to the church by seeing a priest and making a confession, he still would have been entitled to a Catholic funeral by virtue of his baptism, in spite of not being a practicing Catholic for 59 years.

And if he is going to start making exceptions based on public perceptions/scandal, then that could escalate quickly. James Martin, SJ, pointed this out on Twitter right away noting that by his rationale, funerals should be denied to people who lived with someone outside of marriage, those divorced & remarried without annulments, those who had a child outside of marriage, any Catholic who has used birth control....the list would be endless. 

[smittykins]

Just off the top of my head, I recall that both Sonny Bono(four marriages/three divorces)and Ron Pallilo(longtime same-sex relationship)were given Catholic funerals. 

[Cleopatra7]

3 hours ago, louisa05 said:

 

And if he is going to start making exceptions based on public perceptions/scandal, then that could escalate quickly. James Martin, SJ, pointed this out on Twitter right away noting that by his rationale, funerals should be denied to people who lived with someone outside of marriage, those divorced & remarried without annulments, those who had a child outside of marriage, any Catholic who has used birth control....the list would be endless. 

The inconsistency in which certain "sins" or groups of people are singled out as being "public sinners" is why most bishops prefer to stay silent on such matters, because it just brings bad publicity. In the pre-Vatican II era in the US, most Catholic communities were insular enough to peer pressure people into conforming. Nowadays, this is almost impossible to do for a variety of reasons, but some bishops still try to "get tough" so they look good to those that frequent the CAF and the like.

[Hane]

Steve Allen, who was raised Catholic, turned against the church in part because he was excommunicated for marrying a divorcee, but the church held opulent funeral masses for known Mafia figures. 

This bishop's declarations are one huge reason why I left Catholicism for the UU.

[PennySycamore]

@smittykins,  I didn't know that Horshack was gay!  Ron and his partner, Joseph Gramm, were together for 41 years.  Ron sounds like a fascinating person: playwright, children's book illustrator and teacher at UConn.

[47of74]

18 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

The inconsistency in which certain "sins" or groups of people are singled out as being "public sinners" is why most bishops prefer to stay silent on such matters, because it just brings bad publicity. In the pre-Vatican II era in the US, most Catholic communities were insular enough to peer pressure people into conforming. Nowadays, this is almost impossible to do for a variety of reasons, but some bishops still try to "get tough" so they look good to those that frequent the CAF and the like.

Yes, back then the church had cops, lawyers, judges, politicians, and other influential people  in its  pocket to help when things didn't go the way they wanted - no matter how disgusting and/or criminal the problem was.   I remember watching a documentary on abuse one time where a woman had tried to report an abusive priest to the diocese and the diocese pretty much threatened her and her family, namely because they had this protection racket going.

[smittykins]

2 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

@smittykins,  I didn't know that Horshack was gay!  Ron and his partner, Joseph Gramm, were together for 41 years.  Ron sounds like a fascinating person: playwright, children's book illustrator and teacher at UConn.

I don't think it was ever mentioned until he died, and then it was a matter-of-fact "He is survived by his partner."  There aren't many straight marriages in the entertainment industry that last 41 years.

[Cartmann99]

9 minutes ago, smittykins said:

 There aren't many straight marriages in the entertainment industry that last 41 years.

Yes, unfortunately marriages of that duration are not as common these days. On the other hand, we are so blessed to have Donald Trump, Newt Gingrich, and Rudy Giuliani as shining examples of long-term fidelity and marital bliss. 

[PennySycamore]

One of the top male stars in the very early 30s was William Haines.  Louis B Mayer, the head of MGM, demanded that Haines enter into a sham marriage to a woman aka a lavender marriage or else be fired.  Haines refused and was fired.  That was essentially the end of his career as an actor.  Haines and his partner, Jimmy Shields, opened up an interior design firm and became two of the most in demand interior designers in Hollywood.  They remained together for almost 50 years till William Haines died.  Joan Crawford said that they were the "happiest married couple in Hollywood".