Catholic Stories

[laPapessaGiovanna]

It seems that the ever meddling Cardinal Burke managed to deepen the rift between himself, his uberconservative allies and the Vatican. 

https://www.google.it/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/11/knights-of-malta-condom-scandal-stretches-from-myanmar-to-the-vatican?client=ms-android-hms-vf-unknown

Quote

At the heart of the case lies the firing of the Maltese Order’s grand chancellor, Albrecht von Boeselager, who was suspended on 8 December after he refused to resign after allegations that thousands of condoms were distributed in Myanmar by its charitable arm under his watch.

The Catholic church bans the use of contraception and Boeselager has said he stopped the practice when he learned about it.

The pope appointed a special commission to investigate the matter on 22 December, prompting an outcry from the order, which was founded in the 11th century in Jerusalem as the Knights Hospitaller. It came amid tension between Francis and the Vatican’s top diplomat to Malta, the conservative US cardinal Raymond Burke, and reflected concern in the Holy See that Boeselager may have wrongly been told that the pope had blessed his firing.

[...] 

"Burke is becoming a real thorn in the side of the Pope. I suspect he is driving this [firing of Boeselager] and it is part of his obsession with sexual morality, as if this is the decisive feature of what it means to be Catholic and faithful to Jesus Christ when in fact scriptures say very little on these matters,” said Robert Mickens, a veteran Rome-based Vatican journalist.

Ivereigh said the dispute was exposing deep differences between Francis’s Vatican and the Maltese order. 

"You are dealing here with a very profound culture clash within the Catholic church. Burke and the Knights of Malta represent in many ways everything that the church of the second Vatican council and Francis have been seeking to get away from,” he said.

The Order of Malta is known for its extreme adherence to tradition, including in the importance of respecting its own hierarchy. It employs many trappings of a sovereign state, issuing its own stamps, passports and licence plates and holding diplomatic relations with 106 states, the Vatican included.

But there's more the Knights of Malta refuse to collaborate with the investigation required by the Pope on the basis that it would undermine their sovereignty. Because they have sovereignty, they are like a state without land, they issue currency and stamps, they have diplomatic relations with 106 states and a seat as observers at the UN.

www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/01/11/knights-of-malta-refuse-to-assist-irrelevant-papal-probe/ 

Quote

The Knights of Malta, the ancient Catholic lay order, is refusing to cooperate with a Vatican investigation into the sacking of a top official over a condom scandal — and is warning its members to toe the line if they choose to speak with investigators.

In a statement released on Tuesday, the Knights called the investigation legally “irrelevant” and aimed at limiting its sovereignty. It insisted that the ousting of its grand chancellor, Albrecht von Boeselager, was an act of internal governance that in no way involves religious superiors.

Quote

Boeselager has said Fra’ Matthew — in the presence of Cardinal Raymond Burke — indicated that the Holy See wanted him to quit. But the Vatican’s secretary of state, Cardinal Pietro Parolin, has since said the Pope wanted no such thing.

Quote

Fra’ Matthew and Cardinal Burke’s allies have justified the ousting by arguing that Boeselager’s refusal to obey Fra’ Matthew was “disgraceful” and that the condom scandal represented an irredeemable breach.

The pro-life Lepanto Institute, for example, compiled a detailed dossier of United Nation’s reports that showed the order’s Malteser International group distributed thousands of condoms through anti-HIV and family planning programmes.

Members sympathetic to Boeselager, meanwhile, have denounced what they consider a coup and reminded Fra’ Matthew that he, too, took a vow of obedience: to the Pope. 

 

[EmainMacha]

I know the current Pope is by no means perfect and I'll never get what I want to see happen in the church (which is why I'm not much of a church-goer). But reading about this yesterday left me deeply concerned about the direction things may take when Francis is no longer Pope. If people like Burke have their way it'll be back to pure doctrine and screw the message of forgiveness and charity:(

Edited January 13, 2017 by EmainMacha

[Cleopatra7]

I wonder how much of Burke's emnity towards Francis is less about "liberal vs conservative" per se (especially since their positions on gender and sexuality really aren't that different) and more about power and authority in the Catholic Church shifting from the West to the Global South. Burke is trad-friendly and had an ally in Benedict XVI, who personally liked the Latin Mass and wanted to reinvigorate Catholicism in Europe. In comparison, i suspect many of the Cardinals and bishops in the Global South have written Western Catholicism off as a lost cause and expect the Vatican to be more receptive to the issues that concern them, which include poverty and environmental justice. Francis is trying to have it both ways by making pastoral overtures to disaffected Western Catholics (ie discussion about allowing divorced and remarried Catholics to take communion) and talking about social issues that affect the Global South, and for someone like Burke who sees Catholicism in ossified, Eurocentric terms this must be threatening.

[47of74]

A pro-Trump Catholic priest thought it was funny to tell people to commit suicide.

nypost.com/2017/01/30/priest-tells-anti-trump-protesters-to-commit-suicide/

Quote

“Show your hate for Trump. Do it for social justice. #JumpAgainstTrump,” read a meme posted by the Rev. Philip Pizzo just hours after he celebrated Sunday Mass.

The message included an illustration of a man plummeting from a skyscraper.

The conservative priest, who oversees St. Benedict Joseph Labre Roman Catholic Church in Richmond Hill, previously posted a photo of President Obama with the words “He’s not my president’’ and another snapshot of Hillary Clinton titled “Ugly Face’’ in Italian along with “Happy Halloween.’’

Pizzo, 67, told The Post on Monday that he just thought the “Jump Against Trump’’ meme was “funny.”

I told the Brooklyn diocese via twitter that guys like Pizzo are the reason why I will never return to the Catholic Church.  Not even if the Pope and Jesus Christ walked in together and got down on their knees to beg me to do so.  And people can set their fucking watches to that too.   

 

[tabitha2]

Plus Suicide is a mortal sin...Encouraging others to do that is pretty serous on Gods shit list.  He should rightly be  immediately chastised by his Archbishop.

Edited February 1, 2017 by tabitha2

[Grimalkin]

    I think for a Priest to post that on social media is completely inappropriate. 

       I have to say though it kind of amuses me. Some of the insane hysteria on my FB feed concerns me. It has gotten out of hand and it's worse than the birthers. It makes it hard to sift through facts to try and understand what's actually going on, and what's being taken out of context and blown out of proportion. I'm pissed because my younger kids are hearing all sorts of insane stuff and it scares them. Something horrible is going to happen people on both sides are so hateful.

[FloraKitty35]

How long before Father Pizzo has his name mention in the Black Collar Crime section in Freethought Today?

[Four is Enough]

Not only does this priest need to have an emergency session with his Archbishop, he also needs to see his mentor/confessor and a mental health professional!  And a sabbatical!! in a cold monastery with cement floors!

Edited February 1, 2017 by Four is Enough

[Grimalkin]

52 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

Not only does this priest need to have an emergency session with his Archbishop, he also needs to see his mentor/confessor and a mental health professional!  And a sabbatical!! in a cold monastery with cement floors!

      You may be on to something. Don't know many priests but I used to work for nuns in a home for developmentally disabled adults.  I remember my supervisor being a little harsh at times (very rarely, never physical, I guess impatient would be better) looking back on it this woman was 69 years old, woke up at 5:00 week days sleep in to 6:00 every weekend. And worked all day every day with very little free time. Didn't get to just tske a car and run errands, or spend frivolous money on candy ......or alcohol. She crocheted beautiful blankets in the community family room at night if she didn't have to take care of anyone. She had three rose bushes she adored and tended to in the warm months, and some sisters took long walks on the grounds which were lovely. I'd be pissy too if that were my life.

       I don't know what everyday life is like for priests, I imagine you deal with a lot of crap all day every day. He could actually. E out of his mind.

[feministxtian]

I left a message on the Brooklyn Diocese facebook page. I am an x-catholic too. 

[47of74]

1 hour ago, feministxtian said:

I left a message on the Brooklyn Diocese facebook page. I am an x-catholic too. 

Yeah their response was pretty pathetic.  I left a message there too saying that priests like this clown are the reason I dove head first into the Tiber and swam across, and suggesting where they need to check the temperature first if they're entertaining any ideas about my ever coming back.

2 hours ago, Grimalkin said:

      You may be on to something. Don't know many priests but I used to work for nuns in a home for developmentally disabled adults.  I remember my supervisor being a little harsh at times (very rarely, never physical, I guess impatient would be better) looking back on it this woman was 69 years old, woke up at 5:00 week days sleep in to 6:00 every weekend. And worked all day every day with very little free time. Didn't get to just tske a car and run errands, or spend frivolous money on candy ......or alcohol. She crocheted beautiful blankets in the community family room at night if she didn't have to take care of anyone. She had three rose bushes she adored and tended to in the warm months, and some sisters took long walks on the grounds which were lovely. I'd be pissy too if that were my life.

       I don't know what everyday life is like for priests, I imagine you deal with a lot of crap all day every day. He could actually. E out of his mind.

The hell of it too is that there are a lot of good and decent priests in the church who are working as hard as they can under very trying circumstances.  Some here in Iowa are responsible for a half dozen parishes, and have a lonely life.  The priest who did the funerals for my grandparents is a decent enough fellow, but he found he just couldn't handle the life of a priest and left the priesthood last year. 

But when it comes to Pizzo though, instead of taking the time to be a good priest who takes care of the people of his parish, he behaves like a jackass online, then wonders why a shitstorm hit Brooklyn with the speed and intensity it did.

Edited February 1, 2017 by 47of74

[Grimalkin]

17 minutes ago, 47of74 said:

Yeah their response was pretty pathetic.  I left a message there too saying that priests like this clown are the reason I dove head first into the Tiber and swam across, and suggesting where they need to check the temperature first if they're entertaining any ideas about my ever coming back.

The hell of it too is that there are a lot of good and decent priests in the church who are working as hard as they can under very trying circumstances.  Some here in Iowa are responsible for a half dozen parishes, and have a lonely life.  The priest who did the funerals for my grandparents is a decent enough fellow, but he found he just couldn't handle the life of a priest and left the priesthood last year. 

But when it comes to Pizzo though, instead of taking the time to be a good priest who takes care of the people of his parish, he behaves like a jackass online, then wonders why a shitstorm hit Brooklyn with the speed and intensity it did.

      Oh yeah I agree! Not defending him at all. Not appropriate, get some self control. Your supposed to attract people not repel them with hateful comments.

       It does seem like a lonely life. I recall hearing how the sex scandals really changed priest life and affected relationships with others. It was sad. Our old priest was the pastor forever. He was intellectual and an introvert and I think very misunderstood. He seemed decent. I think introverts- myself included can really seem stand offish and unapproachable, entirely unintentionally. Not that I have darkened the door of a church in a while mind you. I think about it now and then.

[47of74]

7 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

I recall hearing how the sex scandals really changed priest life and affected relationships with others. It was sad. Our old priest was the pastor forever. He was intellectual and an introvert and I think very misunderstood. He seemed decent. I think introverts- myself included can really seem stand offish and unapproachable, entirely unintentionally. Not that I have darkened the door of a church in a while mind you. I think about it now and then.

I remember the former rector at our church saying that when news of the sex scandals really hit the fan there was a time when she and a number of other Episcopal priests felt uncomfortable wearing the uniform, as it were, in public.  Granted she was a woman but even she felt uncomfortable wearing the clergy shirt and collar because of the negative connotations.  She eventually decided that she needed to reclaim the clerical dress from those who had tarnished it, and since wears it regularly in public.  

[Childless]

And this is supposed to make me want to go to church?  Thanks, but no thanks.  I'd rather stay home and sleep in on Sunday mornings.  A lot more pleasant.

[ShepherdontheRock]

This is part of the reason I don't trust Catholics any more than your run of the mill Protestant militant Christians.
Granted, I know some personally that are very kind people, but the Catholic Church has such a history of being problematic in every way possible that I can't...

[2manyKidzzz]

I don't know how to move articles on the ipad.....sorry...But Francis has reduced penalities for sex offender priests. 

I am speechless and anyway anything I said would send me to the prayer closet.

 

Heaven help us. Pray for the victims.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

1 hour ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

I don't know how to move articles on the ipad.....sorry...But Francis has reduced penalities for sex offender priests. 

I am speechless and anyway anything I said would send me to the prayer closet.

 

Heaven help us. Pray for the victims.

The news seem to stem from this article

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/pope-quietly-trims-sanctions-sex-abusers-seeking-mercy-45732198

I really hope that they got something wrong. In the article it is repeatedly stated that Ratzinger had a tougher line than Bergoglio on child abuse and this is a lie, it is well known that Benedict XVI in his years as a cardinal helped cover a case of abuse in Liguria and maybe others and as a pope his tough stand was more appearance than evidence based. This makes me suspicious because lately I have heard a lot from the most conservative sides of the RCC trying to bash Francis and one of their lines is that his stressing over mercy is excessive and not really mercy.

But if this is true it would be very very bad for everyone, for victims, for children and all catholics. A step back in the darkest ages of cover ups.

ETA sources of my claims about Ratzinger, in italian unfortunately, and another one

ETA2 source in English 

Edited February 26, 2017 by laPapessaGiovanna

[2manyKidzzz]

21 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

The news seem to stem from this article

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/pope-quietly-trims-sanctions-sex-abusers-seeking-mercy-45732198

I really hope that they got something wrong. In the article it is repeatedly stated that Ratzinger had a tougher line than Bergoglio on child abuse and this is a lie, it is well known that Benedict XVI in his years as a cardinal helped cover a case of abuse in Liguria and maybe others and as a pope his tough stand was more appearance than evidence based. This makes me suspicious because lately I have heard a lot from the most conservative sides of the RCC trying to bash Francis and one of their lines is that his stressing over mercy is excessive and not really mercy.

But if this is true it would be very very bad for everyone, for victims, for children and all catholics. A step back in the darkest ages of cover ups.

Thanks for bringing the article. It breaks my heart. Francis is a good man but is perhaps "losing it" over the issue of mercy. Yes, well, said a step back in the darkest ages of cover ups. Really horrifying.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

The last abuse survivor remained in the Vatican Commission on Child Abuse quits over refuse by  parts of the Curia to acknowledge the letters from child abuse survivors. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/01/abuse-victim-marie-collins-quits-vatican-child-protection-body

Quote

[...]

Marie Collins, who was molested by a priest when she was 13 years old, said in a written statement she had made a final decision to resign after she learned that a Vatican department was failing to comply with a basic new recommendation that all correspondence from victims and survivors should receive a response.

“I learned in a letter from this particular [congregation] last month that they are refusing to do so,” Collins wrote in a searing statement to the National Catholic Reporter.

“I find it impossible to listen to public statements about the deep concern in the church for the care of those whose lives have been blighted by abuse, yet to watch privately as a congregation in the Vatican refuses to even acknowledge their letters.”

Pope has done almost nothing to halt sex abuse, author claims. She added: “It is a reflection of how this whole abuse crisis in the church has been handled: with fine words in public and contrary actions behind closed doors.”

Collins’s resignation represents a devastating indictment of the church’s handling of sexual abuse under Pope Francis. For years since her 2014 appointment to the commission, she has been critical of the church’s slow response to issues around clerical sex abuse but has stood by the work of the commission and the pope’s commitment to coming to grips with the problem.

[...]

Collins said one of the reasons she decided to resign was the Vatican’s failure to establish a tribunal recommended by the commission to hold negligent bishops to account when they ignored reports of abuse. Even though the idea was backed by Francis and announced in June 2015, it was found to have unspecified legal difficulties by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the church body that primarily deals with abuse accusations.

In another case, “safeguarding guidelines” that were developed by the commission to be used by bishops’ conferences around the world as a basis to draw up their own policies on abuse had not been disseminated to the appropriate officials, whom Collins said were “refusing to cooperate with the commission”.

Collins said the refusal was unacceptable. “Is this reluctance driven by internal politics, fear of change, clericalism which instills a belief that ‘they know best’ or a closed mindset which sees abuse as an inconvenience or a clinging to old institutional attitudes?” she wrote.

“I do not know the answer but it is devastating in 2017 to see that these men still can put other concerns before the safety of children and vulnerable adults.”

And there are serious allegations that Pope Francis himself isn't doing everything to adequately face this horror.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/15/catholic-church-not-done-enough-to-tackle-abuse-claims-new-book

Quote

In Lussuria (Lust), which will be released in Italian by publisher Feltrinelli on Thursday, Fittipaldi methodically pores over court documents and cites interviews with priests and judicial officials to paint a damning picture of the first three years of Francis’s papacy. Fittipaldi claims that 1,200 plausible complaints of molestation against boys and girls from around the world have been brought to the Vatican’s attention in that period. In some of the twenty cases of alleged sexual abuse by priests in Italy in 2016, Fittipaldi writes, priests have been convicted of abuse without the church taking any canonical action against them.

Fittipaldi also devotes attention to the case of Australian cardinal George Pell, who was appointed by Francis to reform church finances and has remained in that senior positiondespite questions over whether Pell protected serial abusers in his archdiocese in Australia decades ago. Pell has denied the allegations against him but a counsel assisting a royal commission looking at child abuse in Australia has argued that there was evidence that Pell should have taken stronger action against one paedophile priest whose case has been examined.

[...]

Among other incidents, Lussuria delves into the case of Mauro Inzoli, a priest who was nicknamed “Don Mercedes” for his rich taste. Inzoli was found guilty of molesting children in 2012 by the church body that examines such cases and was defrocked by Francis’s predecessor, Pope Benedict. But in 2014, under Francis, Inzoli’s punishment was softened and he was able to return to the clergy under limited conditions, and to enjoy a life of “humility and prayer”. In the meantime, civil authorities in Italy prosecuted him and last year he was convicted of abuse. At the time of his conviction, a judge criticised the Holy See for not turning over evidence in the case.

“The Vatican refused to give judges documents because it is considered a pontifical secret,” Fittipaldi wrote.

Clerical sexual abuse has received close media scrutiny in the US since 2002, when the Boston Globe exposed hundreds of abuse cases and brought the issue to light. But in Italy, even after the success of the film Spotlight, which chronicled the Globe’s investigation and won the Academy Award for best film last year, the issue is still considered a taboo and has never been viewed as an endemic problem.

“In all the Catholic countries, in Italy, Spain, South America, the sexual crimes of the priests are hard to tell. There is a kind of auto-censoring, on the part of journalists and victims because of the shame and because the culture of the church is very strong,” Fittipaldi said.

In Lussuria, he describes dozens of cases that are covered marginally in daily newspapers in Italy, as individual tiles that, when put together and seen from a distance, create a mosaic.

Fittipaldi was working on Lussuria during his trial for illegally obtaining secret documents. Speaking to the Guardian, he recalled:“It was ironic to be there, during the trial. I was thinking that many priests and bishops and cardinal were involved in sexual abuse and the Vatican does nothing. They preferred going after journalists.”

I read a lot of the papers produced by the Australian Royal Commission into Child Abuse and the parts about cardinal Pell are pretty damning. It seems that if (not always though) "common" priests face some sort of consequence according to canonical law, higher up in the hierarchy those who knew and covered up everything for decades and still now resist a change are pretty much untouchables. Couple this with the pope defining pedophilia as an illnesses and imho the whole picture is a damn mess where vulnerable people are still in danger. 

[Howl]

This breaks my heart.  It is telling us that nothing has changed.  That pedophile priests are still protected while the well being of children is not the highest priority.  

[Cleopatra7]

Unfortunately, I'm not surprised by this. I had heard that this sham Commission was in trouble before, and this only proves that it only exists for appearances' sake. The part that mentions how traditionally Catholic countries engage in self-censorship on the topic of church abuse reminds me of the situation in the US, where the secular media had all of the pieces in the puzzle to expose the abuse crisis in the 1980s but didn't because of fears of being labeled "anti-Catholic." I don't think the RCC has any real interest in dealing with abuse, because priests possess an "ontologically different soul" and thus possess more inherent value than the laity. The hierarchy is also a giant old boys' club, and will protect their own by circling the wagons.

[Foudeb]

I think they also fall into the fundy pitfall of seeing far too many things as sin - "dirty" thoughts, masturbation, adultery between consenting adults, pre-marital sex between consenting adults etc.

So I'm sure they agree that raping little children is wrong, but they might relate to it as in, "I can't blame XX for sinning, because I too have sinned - just yesterday I was thinking about how my adult parishioner's breasts might look like, which is very, very bad and sinful too, and at confession I listened to how this parishioner whom everyone thinks such an upstanding member of society actually masturbates every evening when his wife is asleep, so we're all sinners, and who am I to cast a stone really".

When the rest of us heathens know enough to differentiate between thoughts, consensual actions, rape, and raping children that have been placed under your care with no supervision or control

So not unlke Josh Duggar - planning on cheating on his wife with a consenting adult was seen as worse than actually molesting children.

[Red Jumper]

4 hours ago, Foudeb said:

So not unlke Josh Duggar - planning on cheating on his wife with a consenting adult was seen as worse than actually molesting children.

And not unlike the D's there is no real interest in doing something. The only reason for lip service is preasure from outside. The core problems are not adressed.

[Cleopatra7]

I've known that Pope Francis has been in talks with the SSPX on the DL for over a year, but I didn't think they were this developed:

http://www.lastampa.it/2017/03/03/vaticaninsider/eng/news/society-of-st-pius-x-small-steps-towards-an-agreement-l2ECN8NArPVgXVwOU6PRmJ/pagina.html

http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/bp-fellay-discusses-prelature-rumors

What interests me in particular is the possibility that the SSPX's objections to Vatican II (i.e., objections to the "Novus Ordo Mass," religious freedom, pronouncement on Jew, etc) may be classified as "open questions," rather than as something than one must completely assent to to be considered part of the mainstream Catholic Church. If Francis could pull this off, it may lead to further schisms in rad-trad land since many traditionalists already had one foot in sedevacantism because of their dislike of Francis; Richard Williamson already has his SSPX-Resistance for those who think the regular SSPX has become "too liberal." Given how much flack Benedict XVI got for lifting the SSPX bishops' excommunications, this move will no doubt alienate those secular and liberal people who still think Francis is a "cool guy." Wikipedia says the SSPX has some rich benefactors among the Italian "Black Nobility." Do you know anything about this @laPapessaGiovanna?

[laPapessaGiovanna]

7 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

:Wikipedia says the SSPX has some rich benefactors among the Italian "Black Nobility." Do you know anything about this @laPapessaGiovanna?

Personally I think their richest and most influential donors are abroad. The former black nobility is just a shadow of what it was in the past (I don'tknow how much you know about Italian history so excuse me the brief historical summary) its power derived from their sovereign, the Pope. When in 1870 the Pope lost his sovereignty to the Kingdom of Italy they chose to be loyal to the Pope and lost power ever since because they refused to take part in the political life of the new kingdom (those who did were excommunicated). The Pope regained sovereignty with the creation of  Vatican City State when in 1929 Pius XI and Mussolini signed the concordat known as Patti Lateranensi (a pact made in hell imho, whose anniversary the RCC still celebrates every year). But they never regained their power because the regime didn't favor nobility and after the regime came the Republic and nobility (that in Italian peninsula was an historically unpopular class anyway) was abolished. They got finally screwed when Paul VI reformed the papal court and abolished or modernised a lot of honorary titles that were traditionally held by members of the loyalist nobility, so basically they got thrown out from their last influential positions in the Vatican. So independently from whoever and wherever they are now, whatever they managed to retain of the past splendour can't be much, not enough that their endorsement of SSPX could make much of a difference anyway.