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Beth Moore: The Identity Crisis of My Life. 2021 Update: She's Left the SBC.


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3 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Many ex-evangelicals on Twitter & elsewhere are saying this is a BFD as is Kristin Du Mez, author of Jesus and John Wayne.

It will be interesting to see how many fundie Christian women follow Moore's lead.

It is a really big deal. Many (very many) of the men in positions of influence in the still-very-large SBC will criticize her and will refuse to allow the official organizing of groups of women in their churches to attend her seminars. They will bad mouth her and the Bible study materials she has authored. In effect, her sources of income may be a fraction of what they have been.

All that said - time will tell. Her studies and meetings have historically not been limited to an SBC audience.

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Forget attending, she does packaged Bible Studies for women (that were published by Lifeway).  They'll not authorize women's groups in their local churches to use the study material or pay for them (meaning provide the study materials such as the videos).  And there are some live stream events every year - they'll not provide their churches that either. 

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Not familiar with her teachings, but for those of you who are, will her shift away from SBC make a difference in her theological approach -- how tied are her teachings to specifically SBC beliefs?  

Maybe only time will tell. 

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59 minutes ago, Howl said:

Not familiar with her teachings, but for those of you who are, will her shift away from SBC make a difference in her theological approach -- how tied are her teachings to specifically SBC beliefs?  

Maybe only time will tell. 

Probably not. She’s still a conservative Christian even though she’s incredibly popular. I see her popularity like Hillsong. They’re Hollywood cool but quietly anti-lgbt and pro-patriarchy, even though they allow women in leadership positions and they’re not as blatant about it.

Edited by Giraffe
Grammar
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1 hour ago, Howl said:

Not familiar with her teachings, but for those of you who are, will her shift away from SBC make a difference in her theological approach -- how tied are her teachings to specifically SBC beliefs?  

Maybe only time will tell. 

I agree with @Giraffe. Her teaching, though conservative, isn't tied to anything specifically Southern Baptist. She has a very wide audience, including many in the Presbyterian church that I attend. Many Bible study groups use her packaged Bible studies, which include video and study materials. I've tried to watch her but I find her energy a bit too frenetic for me.

While she will remain conservative, I do think she's evolving in that she has begun to realize the headship/patriarchy stance of many men stems from misogyny rather than some biblical view. She was truly shocked when many SBC church leaders didn't condemn Trump for his Access Hollywood comments. They had skewered Clinton and she was positive they would do the same with Trump. Since then, she has done a lot of soul searching.

Another factor, I think, is that she earns much more than her husband (a plumber), and he is very supportive of her and so their marriage is more complementarian than that of most conservative women.

This is a huge deal and I think it will free hundreds of thousands of women to do their own questioning. I can't remember if this 2018 Atlantic article has been linked. It describes how she began to speak up, and some of the pushback she has received. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/10/beth-moore-bible-study/568288/

 

Edited by livinginthelight
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I don't see her shift away from SBC in changing her theological approach.  I've taken many of her studies.  And not in an SBC church (Free Methodist to be honest - and some independently).  She's widely respected among women's bible study groups.  Her focus is women (which is why I've long not understood the patriarchal kerfuffle about her teaching).  In her more recent studies - she's been working with her daughter Melissa who is/has gone to seminary - and she was already out of the SBC because of their anti-women stupidity. 

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On 3/11/2021 at 10:37 AM, livinginthelight said:

While she will remain conservative, I do think she's evolving in that she has begun to realize the headship/patriarchy stance of many men stems from misogyny rather than some biblical view.

This so absolutely 100% on point.  I'd include simple cruelty and outright meanness as well.   Interesting perspective on the toxic/venomous responses to Beth Moore abandoning the SBC: 

Cruelty Is Apostasy  Reflections on Beth Moore’s departure from the Southern Baptist Convention

Edited by Howl
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Another article covering this topic.  I'll also post it in the Jesus and John Wayne thread. 

The Post-Trump Crack-Up of the Evangelical Community  Its embrace of an ignominious president is forcing a long-overdue reckoning with the movement’s embrace of white supremacy and illiberal politics.

By the way, I don't think there's a huge breaking apart of the Evangelical/fundy community just because the inherent racism/misogyny of a lot of white Evangelicals has been exposed following the January 6th insurrection.  There's no earthquake of introspection -- it's still monolithic, as is unwavering support for Trump.  The shit-storm of blow back aimed at Beth Moore makes this point quite well. 

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Kristin Kobes Du Mez, author of Jesus and John Wayne, has written a good & thoughtful commentary on the turmoil in evangelical churches:

Quote

 

Since writing Jesus and John Wayne, a book that exposes the way power is wielded within white evangelicalism in defense of white Christian patriarchy, I’ve heard from hundreds of evangelicals and former evangelicals who have shared their own stories of running up against formidable evangelical power structures. Most tell stories of staying quiet, or of quietly leaving. The few who have spoken boldly against white Christian nationalism and racial injustice have often come under attack and eventually decide to leave, often out of exhaustion.

As a result, evangelical institutions and organizations remain largely unchanged.

 

Re: #LeaveLOUD. She is referencing this podcast series in which Black evangelical Christians talk about why they needed to leave white fundamentalist churches such as the SBC or PCA congregations. I just listened to Tisby's account and it's quite something -- it's an hour & a half long but I highly recommend listening if you can do so.

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This article contains a great overview of the stances of the Southern Baptist Convention and its attitudes towards women.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/religion/beth-moore-split-highlights-division-southern-baptist-convention-n1261120

There is a picture in this article that really got me. Towards the bottom of the article, there is a picture of a panel discussion between Beth Moore, Rachel Denhollander, and two males. The body language in the photo is striking, showing the women trying to make themselves small and not take up space, while the men feel they own the room. As a woman, it's maddening that even our very right to take up space gets erased by these toxic cultures.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Beth Moore called out complimentarianism this morning on twitter.

 

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I trusted that the motives were godly. I have not lost my mind. Nor my doctrine. Just my naivety.

This is a pretty big deal, @clueliss.  Beth Moore is taking some big steps forward, and I think that will continue. 

On 3/11/2021 at 10:37 AM, livinginthelight said:

While she will remain conservative, I do think she's evolving in that she has begun to realize the headship/patriarchy stance of many men stems from misogyny rather than some biblical view.

That light-bulb moment -- I don't have to defer to these men as the ultimate doctrinal experts, their motives are NOT Godly, their stances are not Biblical, they're just misogynists. 

I wonder if she and her seminary educated daughter are  going through this questioning journey together. 

Edited by Howl
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I agree calling out complementarianism for what it is is a big deal. The first step of my deconversion was realizing complementarianism was bullshit so I wonder where she’ll land once she finds equilibrium. 

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Her daughter, Melissa, had left the SBC before Beth did.  I suspect Melissa had some impact on this.

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23 minutes ago, clueliss said:

Her daughter, Melissa, had left the SBC before Beth did.  I suspect Melissa had some impact on this.

Interesting. I didn’t know this. Do you know if she’s still a Christian?

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She is.  She actually works with Beth on some of the material/study guides etc that Beth does now. 

image.png.bc41f10b57175b005b0d2f475fb8163d.png

Edited by clueliss
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5 hours ago, clueliss said:

Beth Moore called out complimentarianism this morning on twitter.

 

I am surprised but also not surprised to see this. She was obviously coming into conflict with people who espouse these views, and I wondered whether she'd land on the specific behaviour of these men being problematic, or whether she'd disavow the doctrine. This is interesting.

Edited by seraaa
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An ordained SBC clergywoman is calling out Beth Moore over Moore's recent equivocating on complementarianism: 

Quote

So you reject complementarianism as a litmus test for Biblical inerrancy, authority of scripture—but are unwilling to strike this “doctrine of MAN” (your words) altogether. This suggests that you believe there are circumstances in which complementarianism is appropriate....You benefit from maintaining a neutral posture on complementarianism the way white women benefit from not denouncing racism. If the white men lose another inch of privilege, status, power, and authority, their white women will as well.

 

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11 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

An ordained SBC clergywoman is calling out Beth Moore over Moore's recent equivocating on complementarianism: 

Whoo boi, that's calling out Beth Moore in a serious way, and I get her point.  

This is J. Dana Trent's bio: J. Dana Trent is a graduate of Duke University Divinity School and ordained Baptist clergywoman. She teaches World Religions at Wake Technical Community College. Her most recent book is Dessert First: Preparing for Death While Savoring Life.

I'm curious who ordained her.  I guess there are a lot of difference kinds of Baptists.  She lives in Raleigh, NC. 

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55 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

An ordained SBC clergywoman is calling out Beth Moore over Moore's recent equivocating on complementarianism: 

 

The author has a has a really good point. Moore's courageous stance loses its potency when she waffles and tries to play it both ways. But the author implies Moore is doing this to widen her prospective market share. While I see that it may look that way, I don't think this is Moore's motivation. It's difficult to shake toxic teachings when one has been steeped in them for 63 years. She's paid dearly for her recent speaking up. She'd been denounced and shunned and I wouldn't be surprised if she received death threats the way Jen Hatmaker did when she denounced Trump.

I've never been a Beth Moore fan but I support her on her journey.

Edited by livinginthelight
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2 hours ago, Howl said:

Whoo boi, that's calling out Beth Moore in a serious way, and I get her point.  

This is J. Dana Trent's bio: J. Dana Trent is a graduate of Duke University Divinity School and ordained Baptist clergywoman. She teaches World Religions at Wake Technical Community College. Her most recent book is Dessert First: Preparing for Death While Savoring Life.

I'm curious who ordained her.  I guess there are a lot of difference kinds of Baptists.  She lives in Raleigh, NC. 

I asked DuckDuckGo if the SBC ordains women and turns out they do!

http://www.womencanbepriests.org/related/sbaptist.asp

I had not known that.

Edited by MamaJunebug
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9 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

That's a fascinating document! I'll try to summarize: Everyone is equal in the eyes of God, but wait!  God thinks women are amazing, but just not QUITE as amazing as men, who get to determine exactly how amazing women are relative to men. 

Quote

WHEREAS, The Bible teaches that men and women share in the dignity of creation, both being made "in the image of God” (Genesis 1:27)

and this

Quote

WHEREAS, Our Lord Jesus Christ by his attitude and actions affirmed the worth and dignity of women

and this

Quote

WHEREAS The Apostle Paul set forth in Galations 3:28 the principle of spiritual equality before God declaring that in the grace of God “there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus”

All sign posts pointing directly at equality, but these guys just can't go there.  If a woman is a spiritual equal, then her spiritually gifted teachings are completely legitimate and equal to or greater than a man's teachings. 

Interesting also that those resolutions call for equal pay for women, both in church employment and in the secular world and recognize and legitimize women working outside the home.  

This document seems to be trying to resolve so much cognitive dissonance, and just comes out with "the same but not equal" because dick or God/Jesus thinks women are awesome but we don't. 

 

 

Edited by Howl
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3 hours ago, Howl said:

This document seems to be trying to resolve so much cognitive dissonance, and just comes out with "the same but not equal" because dick or God

I owe you SO BIG for actually plowing through that thing!  I’ve heard complementarian Lutherans say “equal but not the same” and both ways would make me so mad if I spent my energy being angry anymore. 
 

When I hear pastors fret over the persecution that is to come, they sometimes follow it up with, “But take heart: the Church grew when the early believers were persecuted.”

And I think, “You muzzle half your membership, and you identify reproductive rights and marriage equality as huge threats, along with militant religionists.

“Where  you would have twice as many individuals (women) from whom to choose leaders; and who-knows-how-many more (same-sex couples) to include in your mission and to support the work of the church.”

Which, last I looked, was “to bring people to Christ.”  Guess TPTB want to do it their way, at half-power.  Whatever, dudes.  The Junebug has one foot out the door of your denomination anyway.

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  • Coconut Flan changed the title to Beth Moore: The Identity Crisis of My Life. 2021 Update: She's Left the SBC.
  • 10 months later...
On 3/11/2021 at 3:25 AM, hoipolloi said:

Many ex-evangelicals on Twitter & elsewhere are saying this is a BFD as is Kristin Du Mez, author of Jesus and John Wayne.

It will be interesting to see how many fundie Christian women follow Moore's lead.

This is funny: I asked my daughter (who, unlike me, didn't get 15 hours if religious studies in college + read a butt-load of books on religion + all those classes at church) what denomination does her boyfriend attend? She (a .nice enough red-neck girl) replied, "some white trash denomination like Southern Baptist". Well, from the mouth of babes!

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