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John Kelly -- Bringing Order to the West Wing?


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How about "I'm sorry" or "I'm so sorry for your loss", or even "I'm so sorry for your family's loss"? FFS, it ain't that difficult to express condolences.
"I am sorry" alone could be met with the response of "me too." And it MIGHT sound empty. It isn't easy and to pretend it is, THAT is dismissive. FFS, it is not that easy to express condolences. Trump DID say he was "so sorry" in the recording that Army Staff Sgt. Mark De Alencar's wife, Natasha, released. I am doubtful "sorry" wasn't expressed in all of these four conversations. In fact, saying "sorry" alone could be perceived by some as out of touch and a condolence that lacks much thought. I would hardly fault someone for not saying MORE and would also understand why a grieving family may tire of such a response, but that is exactly how fucking hard this is.

However, I find it interesting that you are certain it "ain't that hard" to express condolences to a Gold Star family.

As to his late response, are you pointing out lack of a public statement?
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A gold star family or not, they are human beings suffering a loss. Nothing trumpy says would ever sound sincere. Why is the recipients possible response even relevant? Sincerity is conveyed by the one giving the condolences regardless of the exact words used. Try again.

Some folks don't want to hear a lot of verbiage at this time anyway.

I've suffered a lot of deaths in my family, should the condolences expressed to me have been less considered than those provided to gold star families?

I said nothing about late response.

Edited by SilverBeach
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I'm sorry, but I just don't get your blind bias towards Kelly just because he lost his son. Does the fact that his son died magically turn him into a saint, just because his son was a soldier? Of course it doesn't. He can still be a liar and a bully. And be honest, he was demonstrably a liar and a bully during that press briefing. Or did you see another briefing than the rest of us did?
Oh, and just so you know, nobody here is 'attacking' Kelly.  We're simply calling him out on his behavior and his falsehoods. 
Also, I find it pretty telling that you state "I understand that you loathe the President"... It implies that you do not feel 'one of us'. Maybe that is why you are so on the defensive?
I am not a US citizen, so I am being respectful of the fact that YOU may have personal feelings about him. I personally opted to not become a citizen (I very easily could) and hence also opted to not vote in this election. I may not loathe the guy, but that may or may not have more to do with my citizenship and lack of US citizenship.

If you want to paint me as some giant Trump supporter or get upset that I don't loathe him or love him or whatever you want to claim, go for it. Whatever makes you feel better.

I am standing with my support for Kelly though. I feel that people are attacking Kelly in effort to attack the President. Wilson also does not get a pass and she is absolutely not one who supports the military. Certainly not as much as Kelly and you would be hard pressed to find she supports the military more than your president does.

This is a lot of "smoke and mirrors".

What explicitly did you dislike that Kelly said?
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A gold star family or not, they are human beings suffering a loss. Nothing trumpy says would ever sound sincere. Why is the recipients possible response even relevant? Sincerity is conveyed by the one giving the condolences regardless of the exact words used. Try again.
Some folks don't want to hear a lot of verbiage at this time anyway.
I've suffered a lot of deaths in my family, should the condolences expressed to me have been less considered
than those provided to gold star families? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Nothing he says? But one Gold Star spouse released her conversation and was happy with Trump's call. Are we going to ignore her personal feelings or attack that conversation?

I am willing to bet the conversations were fairly similar, which to one may be upsetting and to another, comforting. That is why the recipients response is largely important. Why would they not be?

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Just now, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Nothing he says? But one Gold Star spouse released her conversation and was happy with Trump's call. Are we going to ignore her personal feelings or attack that conversation?

I am willing to bet the conversations were fairly similar, which to one may be upsetting and to another, comforting. That is why the recipients response is largely important. Why would they not be?
 

Please stop using the word attack.

And yes, nothing that fucker says.

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So Wilson  should be criticized  for politicizing this but Kelly shouldn't? Why?

And you don't  have to be an American  citizen  to acknowledge  Trump is vile. Do you not think he is?

Edited by formergothardite
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3 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

So Wilson  should be criticized  for politicizing this but Kelly shouldn't? Why?

And you don't  have to be an American  citizen  to acknowledge  Trump is vile. Do you not think he is?

Because he's a gold star patent, don't you get it? Why is Otter so protective of gold star parents when she's not a citizen?

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She doesn't  seem to be protective  of the gold star families Trump insulted and then Kelly made it worse by defending him and deciding  to join in politicizing the death of their son/husband. Imagine  how they feel seeing Kelly attack a close family friend who was there to comfort  them. 

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Because he's a gold star patent, don't you get it? Why is Otter so protective of gold star parents when she's not a citizen?
Service members can marry non us citizens. Thanks
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I don't think @OtterRuletheWorld reads our posts through very well, or otherwise is so biased in her beliefs that she reads things into our posts that are simply not there.

I find her reactions to be rather disjointed and they don't adress the points we make. It's as if she is attempting to cloak her true beliefs but not succeeding very well. Plus, she is sounding more and more querulous with every new post she makes.

She has stated that she is not a US citizen more than once. If she has read my posts, surely she must realize that I am not either? And that I heartily dislike the presidunce anyway?

I'm not sure what she means with her 'smoke and mirror's' comment in her post that quoted my last. Does she think we are trying to delude her? Is she afraid of the truth, and is this her way of protecting herself against it? By saying we are using smoke and mirrors in order to trick her or something? 

@SilverBeach, I think she is so supportive of Kelly because:

20 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

I feel that people are attacking Kelly in effort to attack the President.

I am beginning to believe we have a Trumpster in our midst. Don't get me wrong, I do not mind that in the slightest. In fact, I welcome people who have differing opinions. It broadens my understanding. But they should just come right out and say it. Join our discussion. Tell us their beliefs and opinions. Not try and disguise themselves. That's just needlessly disingenuous and doesn't lead to open and honest discussion.

 

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36 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

I may not loathe the guy, but that may or may not have more to do with my citizenship and lack of US citizenship.

I'm still baffled by this. Why would one have to be a citizen to loathe a person who brags about sexually assaulting women, says Mexicans are rapists, lies to Gold Star families, attacks Gold Star families, and insults Gold Star families. That doesn't even make sense. No citizenship required to realize Trump is a shit person. 

 

5 minutes ago, fraurosena said:

I don't think @OtterRuletheWorld reads our posts through very well, or otherwise is so biased in her beliefs that she reads things into our posts that are simply not there.

ITA. She isn't reading what we are writing. No one is attacking him, we are criticizing how he has behaved and how he decided to join in politicizing the death of these soldiers all while condemning another person for doing that. That is fairly hypocritical. 

Edited by formergothardite
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46 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Wilson also does not get a pass and she is absolutely not one who supports the military. Certainly not as much as Kelly and you would be hard pressed to find she supports the military more than your president does.

She certainly has an issue with Congresswoman Wilson. Perhaps someone who lives in her district and does not like her for same reason shared by many conservatives. This could be all about that. That's some very demonstrative language about her, it sounds personal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Honest to goodness, this one makes me want to puke.  

@OtterRuletheWorld, give it up and move on.  You are digging your hole deeper with every post.  Read what people are telling you and quit pretending that you are not a Trump supporter.  It is increasingly obvious that you are.

On topic, when I heard Kelly's statement, which was indeed obviously politically motivated, I was listening to NPR while driving.  I yelled something like "FFS!  Don't either of you two fools understand that what a career army father might find comforting while mourning his son is not necessarily what will help a young widow and mother grieving her husband."

Especially when filtered through the Presidunce.  Who doesn't seem to have an ounce of empathy or compassion in his entire body. 

I hope Trump ceases to call Gold Star families unless or until he learns how to do better.   IMO he only placed those calls to make Obama look bad anyway.  

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6 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

FFS!  Don't either of you two fools understand that what a career army father might find comforting while mourning his son is not necessarily what will help a young widow and mother grieving her husband."

Especially when filtered through the Presidunce.  Who doesn't seem to have an ounce of empathy or compassion in his entire body. 

It does seem like Kelly missed the mark completely if he really told Trump to say that. The best and only response should have been a apology from Trump. 

1 hour ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

What explicitly did you dislike that Kelly said?

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I was stunned when I came to work yesterday morning, and brokenhearted at what I saw a member of Congress doing. 

It says a lot that he seems more upset that Wilson was with the family while they listened to the president then he was with the presidents lying about what he said and then past poor treatment of gold star families by Trump was brought to light.

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It stuns me that a member of Congress would have listened in on that conversation. Absolutely stuns me. And I thought at least that was sacred

Why is he stunned that a close family friend who was there comforting the family heard the conversation when it was put on speaker? What is stunning about his? And it is totally politicizing the issue.

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Women were sacred, looked upon with great honor

What world was he living in and why should women be sacred? This shows a lot about his views on women and his lack of understanding on how women were treated in the past.

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And when I listened to this woman and what she was saying, and what she was doing on TV, the only thing I could do to collect my thoughts was to go and walk among the finest men and women on this Earth. And you can always find them because they’re in Arlington National Cemetery. I went over there for an hour-and-a-half, walked among the stones, some of whom I put there because they were doing what I told them to do when they were killed.

And he dind't do this when the president disrespected Gold star family after gold star family? 

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And a congresswoman stood up, and in the long tradition of empty barrels making the most noise, stood up there and all of that and talked about how she was instrumental in getting the funding for that building, and how she took care of her constituents because she got the money, and she just called up President Obama, and on that phone call he gave the money — the $20 million — to build the building. And she sat down, and we were stunned. Stunned that she had done it. Even for someone that is that empty a barrel, we were stunned.

This has been proven to be false and again, was a clear sign that he too was trying to politicize the situation.

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But it eroded a great deal yesterday by the selfish behavior of a member of Congress.

He left out that it eroded even more with the selfish behavior of our president. The only reason to do this is if he was trying to politicize it.

Does that help @OtterRuletheWorld, can you see now how Kelly too politicized the situation and why he needs to be criticized for doing so? 

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She certainly has an issue with Congresswoman Wilson. Perhaps someone who lives in her district and does not like her for same reason shared by many conservatives. This could be all about that. That's some very demonstrative language about her, it sounds personal.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
So many things to touch on here. I dislike some things about Trump, but also find some of the hate flung utterly ridiculous. I absolutely do have an issue with Wilson. Is that not allowed? Do you not?

Smoke and mirrors is in regards to this being a distraction from a lot of things, including but not limited to what happened in Niger.

In response to the above poster who mentioned their non citizenship, I guess I haven't found your posts interesting enough to go back and dig into your personal history.
He left out that it eroded even more with the selfish behavior of our president. The only reason to do this is if he was trying to politicize it.
Does that help [mention=25214]OtterRuletheWorld[/mention], can you see now how Kelly too politicized the situation and why he needs to be criticized for doing so? 
No
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Explain how he isn't  politicizing the situation  when he defends the guy who started it all yet he attacks the friend of the soldier who just happens to be in congress? Choosing  sides and attacking  is politicizing. 

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Otter, your minds made up and there will be no confusing you with the facts.

I find you utterly ridiculous, and the hate flung at the presidunce totally reasonable. 

Edited by SilverBeach
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You are becoming rather laughable now, @OtterRuletheWorld.

You don't find my posts interesting enough to read, but you apparently do find them interesting enough to quote... Ok then. 

No matter what you think of me or my posts though, you should really try answering the questions you are asked, if not mine, then those of other posters here. You are contstantly shitstirring, but when confronted with facts you ignore them. When you do react to a question, you use platitudes and evade really answering. Simply saying 'so many things to touch on here' does not say anything at all. State facts. Say what you mean. If you are a serious poster, stop dancing around, and stop being fractious.

Because you are sounding more like a troll with every post.

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1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

I'm still baffled by this. Why would one have to be a citizen to loathe a person who brags about sexually assaulting women, says Mexicans are rapists, lies to Gold Star families, attacks Gold Star families, and insults Gold Star families. That doesn't even make sense. No citizenship required to realize Trump is a shit person

I would love for an explanation to this too. Why is not being a citizen mean you suddenly aren't bothered with a president who does and says awful things? Not being a citizen didn't keep you from being bothered by Wilson. You aren't a citizen yet you are bothered when you saw people criticize Kelly. What makes Trump different? 

 

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Let the parrot speak!

Methinks we may have a bit of a racist in our midst. How dare those uppity negroes have their negro congresswoman with them during this shitty time? I see no sympathy or compassion for this family. I am black and use negro when being sarcastic, as many racists still think of us that way.

I'll just say it: Otter should shut the fuck up.

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@fraurosena, is English your first language?

If not, may I just take a quick moment to congratulate you on your knowledge and use of vocabulary.  @OtterRuletheWorld is querulous and fractious indeed.  And I also think they are trolling.

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@Palimpsest, the answer to your question is.. complicated. I was born in the Netherlands and first learned to speak in Dutch. But we emigrated to Australia for a couple of years when I was 5 and I first learned to read and write in English. So I don't think I actually earn the compliment. :pb_wink:

 

It turns out that we are not the only ones with the same opinion of Kelly:

John Kelly’s politics of grief in the public sphere

Spoiler

Amid the dust storm kicked up by President Trump over the practice of presidents reaching out to families of soldiers killed on the battlefield, Abraham Lincoln’s letters stand out for their serenity and grief. “I have had experience enough to know what I say,” he wrote to one young woman, referencing the death of his own son months before. To another family, he expressed “how weak and fruitless must be any word of mine which should attempt to beguile you from the grief of a loss so overwhelming.” Lincoln speaks both as a person who has weathered great loss himself and as someone conscious of the fact that the memory of the dead exists beyond his understanding.

This question of who can know or understand the suffering of a grieving family was the unavoidable theme of Chief of Staff John F. Kelly’s remarks at the White House press briefing Thursday. Describing the burden that contacting families places on a president, Kelly said, “If you’re not in the family, if you’ve never worn the uniform, if you’ve never been in combat, you can’t even imagine how to make that call.” At the end of his statement, Kelly insisted that only reporters who knew families of soldiers killed in combat ask him questions.

Kelly has previously been resolutely private about the death of his son in Afghanistan in 2010. His decision to appear in support of the president after Trump pulled him into an increasingly graceless spat only makes the already sad and ugly news cycle even uglier. The paradox of the argument over Trump’s behavior toward grieving families is that engaging in it at all — whether to support the president or decry his gracelessness — seems to cheapen the issue further.

In watching Kelly speak about his son, we are seeing something terribly intimate made public and political — which, of course, is exactly what Trump has done in feeding this controversy. But Kelly chose not simply to share his grief but to use it to set himself apart from the public even more. He drew a line between those who have known his loss and those who haven’t — and told those on the other side of the line that they couldn’t even understand enough to ask a question. He shielded himself from any criticism of his decision to involve the memory of his son in a political fight. We’re limited in how we can respond. Who are we to tell him how to mourn?

Grief in the public space has this strange double character of both intimacy and distance. We glimpse something private, but as Lincoln understood, the depth of sorrow places the grieving person outside the sphere of common understanding. The same is true when presidents give us a window into their anguish. In Jack Kightlinger’s famous photograph of President Lyndon B. Johnson weeping as he listens to a tape recording from Vietnam, the viewer looks at Johnson from across the conference table, separated from the president by the weight of his solitary responsibility.

Kelly, along with Defense Secretary Jim Mattis and national security adviser H.R. McMaster, is one of a group of Trump aides understood as “the adults in the room” — men who may not agree with the president but choose to serve in order to avert catastrophe. Kelly’s remarks generated speculation that he isn’t serving Trump to constrain the president but because he’s a true believer. And even if he, and the other “adults,” still do seek to constrain the president, we might ask whether their work is worth it if it requires performances such as the one Kelly gave.

But like the anguished president, the adults in the room will always be able to defend themselves by drawing a line between themselves and the public. We don’t know the unique burdens of their office. We don’t know what crises Kelly has prevented, just like we can’t know his grief.

The trouble, of course, is that democracy requires that we be able to hold our leaders accountable. As a public official, it’s Kelly’s responsibility to take questions from whomever asks them — even those who can’t understand his sorrow. This tension between public accountability and the lonely knowledge of those in power has always been with us. The tawdry genius of the Trump presidency is its ability to transform mournful contradictions like these into loud, crass crises.

 

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From the WaPo editorial board: "John Kelly owes the congresswoman an apology"

Spoiler

WHITE HOUSE Chief of Staff John F. Kelly owes Rep. Frederica S. Wilson (D-Fla.) an apology. That is the only conclusion that can be drawn after watching a video of the representative’s remarks at the dedication of an FBI building in Miramar, Fla., in 2015.

Mr. Kelly took to the lectern in the White House briefing room Thursday to defend President Trump’s handling of a condolence call to a widow of one of the soldiers killed in Niger and to attack Ms. Wilson as selfish and politically motivated for her criticism. To bolster that characterization, he offered up his remembrance of the dedication of the FBI building in memory of two FBI agents who had been killed in the line of duty. He claimed Ms. Wilson used the occasion to take unseemly credit for securing federal funding for the building. “We were stunned,” he said, “stunned that she had done it. Even for someone that is that empty a barrel, we were stunned.”

But, as a video by the Florida Sun Sentinel of Ms. Wilson’s remarks that day shows, Mr. Kelly got it all wrong. She did not say she got money for the building. She was generous and graceful in sharing credit for how legislation naming the building was fast-tracked. And she spent most of her nine-minute speech praising the FBI agents killed in a gunfight with drug dealers: “Today it is our patriotic duty to lift up Special Agent Benjamin Grogan and Special Agent Jerry Dove from the streets of South Florida and place their names and pictures high, where the world will know that we are proud of their sacrifice, sacrifice for our nation.”

It is unfortunate that the sacrifice of brave people such as these two agents or the four soldiers killed in Niger can get overwhelmed by the petty name-calling of politics. That is a point Mr. Kelly was trying to make Thursday, and that he undercut with his misrepresentation of Ms. Wilson. He needs to set the record straight.

The videos are linked in the article. They are worth the time to watch.

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