Dillards 35: Waiting on People Magazine

[Fullfrontalhugs]

Well since we have no real news but Jill seems to be alive and well enough to post on Instagram, I'm going to say the Dullards get $$ for clicks on their website, and that is what they're doing. Didn't someone say the main Duggar hugger at People is on vacation? So if they're not getting a People cover, gotta milk the new baby money train any way they can. 

[curlykate]

I'm ridiculously behind in my Counting On watching, so I just watched Henry's birth episode last night. I feel bad for Jill, as throughout the episode, she repeated several times that she was hoping for an easier second birth like Jessa had. I don't want to say she looked terrified or traumatized, but you could see a change in her when she spoke of the difficulties with Israel's birth. And she was almost pleading that those complications wouldn't happen again. I really hope that no matter what happened, Jill ends up being okay with it in the end. I'm in the camp that thinks there were complications, perhaps only minor ones, and I think she may have some soul searching to do regarding the size of family she was hoping for. 

[HarleyQuinn]

One of the nurses was taking photos with my camera right after our first was born. She got one that was super cute of me looking at him, but she was standing back too far so she also got my midwife stitching me up. It makes me lol so hard because I'm so oblivious to the whole thing going on downstairs when I'm holding my baby for the first time. 

[SilverBeach]

A poster in the prior thread asked about my views on when fundy adults reach accountability status. I think that being well into your twenties does it, and I think my posting history shows that I do not support perpetual infantilization of the Duggars or any of the rest of them.

That said, I recognize that everyone matures differently,  fundy or not. Reaching 18, the arbitrary age of adulthood in many areas, does not automatically confer the ability to "adult", as I have seen said on here before. Conversely, there are some who haven't reached 18 that are wise beyond their years.

At some point,  unquestioning adherence to and support of hateful and hurtful practices must be called out, barring any cognitive deficits. Being raised in a bubble is no justification for staying there. Fundies, FLDS, Jehovah Witnesses, and others in high control groups leave all the time. Some have even left Gothard and IBLP.

The thing with the Duggars and their ilk is that their embrace of reprehensible beliefs and policies haven't personally hurt them or cost them anything. They are cushy comfortable in the bubble. Most of those leaving high control groups have precipitating (unhappy) events, including abuse, that cause them to question the whole thing. They leave at great personal cost, but it is worth it for them, and in many cases their children, to be free.

So while I can't set an arbitrary age or point of accountibility,  I'm comfortable with saying that several of the Duggars have reached it. And I wont go easy on them.

 

 

[Four is Enough]

41 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

One of the nurses was taking photos with my camera right after our first was born. She got one that was super cute of me looking at him, but she was standing back too far so she also got my midwife stitching me up.

Goes to show how accustomed to gore the nurses are. She probably didn't even notice it.

[Rachel333]

1 hour ago, Fullfrontalhugs said:

Well since we have no real news but Jill seems to be alive and well enough to post on Instagram, I'm going to say the Dullards get $$ for clicks on their website, and that is what they're doing. Didn't someone say the main Duggar hugger at People is on vacation? So if they're not getting a People cover, gotta milk the new baby money train any way they can. 

I'm not saying she isn't doing well, but posting on instagram doesn't actually take that much energy! I think you could still be pretty sick and post on instagram.

[Saisa1984]

One of the nurses was taking photos with my camera right after our first was born. She got one that was super cute of me looking at him, but she was standing back too far so she also got my midwife stitching me up. It makes me lol so hard because I'm so oblivious to the whole thing going on downstairs when I'm holding my baby for the first time. 

When I went through my hospital pics that the nurse took, I found one of my tummy right before they stitched it up after my csection. Oops. LOL

[Bad Wolf]

If the Duggars or TLC read here, You'd think they would give out some more information. There is a lot of concern about Jill.

[JoyJoy]

This isn't the only forum concerned for Jill and Samuel. They should release something.

[sophie10130]

Just to jump off of @SilverBeach's musings:

I think as soon as a person has reached the point where they are directly influencing someone else's life, they should be held accountable. Have a kid? Congrats, you're in charge of someone's well-being and upbringing and should be held responsible for the views you have because you are currently perpetuating the same shitty and harmful beliefs. Are you a teacher/pastor/coach/camp counselor? Same thing.

Also if you've been confronted with views that counter your nasty views, you're now responsible for your shitty views. I don't think all the Duggars fall under this, obviously. But the married girls are married to dudes who have friends and families that don't ascribe to the same harmful beliefs they do. They're on Twitter and Instagram. Josh and Anna fall under this because they lived in big, scary DC.

 

Does this mean I have zero sympathy for Anna? No. She faces an extremely difficult decision that she might not even realize she can make due to her upbringing and the awful indoctrination that has been shoved down her throat for her entire life. But she's responsible for perpetuating harmful beliefs through her 5 children and right now is reaping the benefits for believing those things in her community.

 

I see it in the same way my therapist talked to me about a friend of mine I had in college. She wasn't diagnosed with any mental illness, but would go into manic rages and do lots of shitty things to people who were just trying to look after her. I always gave her a pass because she had such a shitty life and maybe even an un-diagnosed mental illness. My therapist basically said "Keep those things in mind, but that doesn't mean she should treat you like that. You can have a hard life and be a shitty person. It doesn't give you a free ride through life."

[HarleyQuinn]

31 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

If the Duggars or TLC read here, You'd think they would give out some more information. There is a lot of concern about Jill.

The Dullards are probably just basking in the attention of us wondering, tbh. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

4 hours ago, meee said:

I know I'm way behind but I've seen mention of Jill looking like she's had a stroke?  What do people see that indicates that?

Some people think the way her left hand is positioned is indicative of a post-stroke appearance. I have photo after photo of myself with my hand like that, as I'm in the process of pushing my hair out of my face, reaching to scratch my nose, etc., and I haven't had a stroke.

[Fluffy14]

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

And I wont go easy on them.

 

Nor will I. It's not in the age where information is not available. They are well aware of the sites that either promote or reflect the abuses of their beliefs.  They have nothing but time to comb the internet looking for refuge if they want it. If someone wants out, they get out. I will not give them any excuses once they are free birds and have access to their own devices. 

[Fluffy14]

20 minutes ago, sophie10130 said:

I think as soon as a person has reached the point where they are directly influencing someone else's life, they should be held accountable. Have a kid? Congrats, you're in charge of someone's well-being and upbringing and should be held responsible for the views you have because you are currently perpetuating the same shitty and harmful beliefs. Are you a teacher/pastor/coach/camp counselor? Same thing.

Also if you've been confronted with views that counter your nasty views, you're now responsible for your shitty views.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I was raised by evil parents who should have had their asses thrown in jail.  Did that give me a license to do what was done to me to my kids or others? NO.  

I could have gone through life being whoa is me. I did not. I fought tooth and nail to get out of patterns, cycles and wrong thinking....and so can the Duggar kids.  I am not saying it isn't  one of the most difficult things to do. But it can be done. There are far worse circumstances people have been brought up in.  I actually used to feel really "sorry" for them.....ah no more.  They have money. If they wanted therapy they have money to pay for it. 

Did they have a crappy life at points? yes. Was it worse than others ? Hell no.  I stopped being soft hearted about their indoctrination a long time ago. The adult kids do not get a pass from me for perpetuating that ungodly lifestyle. 

[justoneoftwo]

10 minutes ago, Fluffy14 said:

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I was raised by evil parents who should have had their asses thrown in jail.  Did that give me a license to do what was done to me to my kids or others? NO.  

I could have gone through life being whoa is me. I did not. I fought tooth and nail to get out of patterns, cycles and wrong thinking....and so can the Duggar kids.  I am not saying it isn't  one of the most difficult things to do. But it can be done. There are far worse circumstances people have been brought up in.  I actually used to feel really "sorry" for them.....ah no more.  They have money. If they wanted therapy they have money to pay for it. 

Did they have a crappy life at points? yes. Was it worse than others ? Hell no.  I stopped being soft hearted about their indoctrination a long time ago. The adult kids do not get a pass from me for perpetuating that ungodly lifestyle. 

 I agree they don't get a pass, but I'm also not sure how long I am inclined to give them (before kids) to come to the conclusion that things were wrong.  It takes time to come to the conclusion that your wrong.  I have sympathy for them, and blame them at the same time. Maybe I'm just good at double think.

[front hugs > duggs]

Ugh the last few posts are so real to me. My brother and I both had difficult upbringings with selfish parents and I feel we both have had to deal with more than we should have ever had to as early-late teenagers. My brother and I are five years apart (he's older) and very different from each other - he seems to have actually become the worst parts of both of my parents, and really has succumbed to his worst qualities (that sounds harsh, but bare with me). I saw the worst in both of my parents and ran in the opposite direction of that. It definitely isn't easy; I find it takes me a ton of emotional energy to get through life sometimes, and it's tiring and mentally exhausting. But it's important to me, so I fight through it to try and be as happy as I can be. My brother (and my dad to be honest) seems to resent the fact that I have my life together more than he does (then both of them probably do). This leads to my brother being just shitty and mean, including for example a year ago when our mom died and he would just say horribly mean things to me throughout that time while I continued to try to console him. And then my dad defends his words and actions because 'he's had it rough'.

It also goes back to the conversations people had here recently about cryers/non-cryers and just because one doesn't cry, doesn't mean they aren't processing pain. That's me- I don't react the way my brother does, but that certainly doesn't mean I'm "fine" or that it doesn't take an immense amount of effort to try and remotely be as "fine" as I can.

PS- My dad also already told me when he one day goes, my brother will then be my responsibility. Because of course. Take care of the man who has been slightly emotionally abusing you for most of your life. 

[Beermeet]

For fundies like the Duggars, with a cushy lifestyle, I think they love it.  What's to change?  Life is good.

The ones who grow up poor and very abused have reason to escape, reason to question.  

And, IMO, that is why lots of people stay or leave.  I mean, I've seen it in my not very religious circle.  Do as your parents say or no paid college, wedding or house.

I know money can't buy happiness but it sure helps.

[Fluffy14]

5 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

 It takes time to come to the conclusion that your wrong.

Yes it does.......but it doesn't have to.  I just can't give them years and years.  The internet is just too full of story after story of people removing themselves out of this indoctrination. It is full of stories of abuse. It is full of stories of people finding truth.  If they pray as much as they say they do then those are the kind of prayers I think God would answer.  Prayers to illuminate the truth.  Most of the problem, is the arrogance, one has to deal with. That might take longer to deal with than the actual knowledge that what you believed in wasn't the truth or what it was cracked up to be. 

I think dealing with your own heart and why you like what you do,or believe  is far worse and harder to deal with  than agreeing that mother's need to stay at home or birth eleventy children.  

If a Duggar child comes to the realization that they believe a false doctrine, what is the cost?  Family? Fame? Fortune? Familiarity?  My question is how long will it take them to realize it might not be the indoctrination that holds them back  but the arrogance and pride they have in who they are.  Do they want to drop that Duggar brand enough to embrace the truth that what they believe is wrong? That might take longer to sift through that than anything else.

[justoneoftwo]

1 minute ago, Fluffy14 said:

Yes it does.......but it doesn't have to.  I just can't give them years and years.  The internet is just too full of story after story of people removing themselves out of this indoctrination. It is full of stories of abuse. It is full of stories of people finding truth.  If they pray as much as they say they do then those are the kind of prayers I think God would answer.  Prayers to illuminate the truth.  Most of the problem, is the arrogance, one has to deal with. That might take longer to deal with than the actual knowledge that what you believed in wasn't the truth or what it was cracked up to be. 

I think dealing with your own heart and why you like what you do,or believe  is far worse and harder to deal with  than agreeing that mother's need to stay at home or birth eleventy children.  

If a Duggar child comes to the realization that they believe a false doctrine, what is the cost?  Family? Fame? Fortune? Familiarity?  My question is how long will it take them to realize it might not be the indoctrination that holds them back  but the arrogance and pride they have in who they are.  Do they want to drop that Duggar brand enough to embrace the truth that what they believe is wrong? That might take longer to sift through that than anything else.

I have to disagree with your statement that it doesn't have to.  Baring some traumatic event people have a hard time coming to the conclusion they are wrong.  When everyone around you who you love is also wrong its even harder.  It would be great if we could all think for ourselves, but I think its harder to start than many do.  In some ways we are all brainwashed, how hard was it to find your family was wrong in some fundamental way?  It takes a strong person to do so without at least some backwards steps.

[Fluffy14]

Just now, justoneoftwo said:

 Baring some traumatic event people have a hard time coming to the conclusion they are wrong

I agree with this to some extent. But all the Duggar's have to do is READ THEIR Duggar Family official page.....when posters are blatantly telling them the truth.  When the critics everywhere critic every bible verse and correct that indoctrination.  

I cannot give the Duggar's the benefit of the doubt because WAY too much has been written about them , exposing them to the error of their ways.......at some point they are fully accountable to the knowledge about them that is truthfully written. They are accountable of remaining ignorant. 

It's not some family dynamic that has no reference specifically.  This is the Duggar's.  IT is in black and white...if they wanted to they could HUMBLE themselves and learn the truth.....but that is the problem. They don't want to. And that is why I don't give them a pass. 

[SilverBeach]

6 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

In some ways we are all brainwashed, how hard was it to find your family was wrong in some fundamental way?  It takes a strong person to do so without at least some backwards steps.

Nah, I don't think so. Part of the problem of being raised dysfunctionally is not recognizing that your home life was abnormal, that there are homes where brainwashing does not take place and children are taught to think for themselves. Not all families are wrong in a fundamental way. And your last sentence, I just don't understand.

[justoneoftwo]

1 minute ago, SilverBeach said:

Nah, I don't think so. Part of the problem of being raised dysfunctionally is not recognizing that your home life was abnormal, that there are homes where brainwashing does not take place and children are taught to think for themselves. Not all families are wrong in a fundamental way. And your last sentence, I just don't understand.

Sorry I'm not being clear.  I find it remarkable and a person to be remarkably strong if they are able to determine they and their family, or values, were wrong in a way that does not involve some internal backlash. When most people are faced with the facts or start to doubt the foundations of their lives they seem to dig in more, before they are willing to grow past those foundations.  Am I making sense?  In my experience people don't just change, they resist first.  

And you are right, some homes help kids think for themselves, but do any fully do so?  As a philosophic question can you teach your child your values without imposing them?  What is the difference between that and forcing them to adhere to something?  I know there is a difference, but where is that line?  How do you avoid it completely?  And should you?  (Sorry this part is not totally relevant, and just something I'm thinking through myself).

[Iamtheway]

6 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

Other than that? Avoid asking Dr. Google too many questions - I found google was definitely not my friend during pregnancy.

I agree with your whole post but especially this. Educate yourself sure, but be careful with google. I swear there was a horror story about everything I ever wondered about. 

Have SPD? Read about the woman that had to hop on crutches from week one and still does two years after her baby was born. 

Feel nauseas? Here's a woman that threw up once every five minutes for nine months. 

Itchy? This woman scratched herself with a steel brush until she bled and had to be induced early to not go insane. 

Got hemorrhoids? Someone online got them the sice of watermelons.

Remember that few people write about how everything were just pretty avarage. How they felt a bit sick, was a little achey, had a painful but uneventful delivery of a pretty cute baby. The horror stories get around though. 

[SilverBeach]

You can't raise children context-free. That's not imposing.  You still have responsibility for the health and welfare of minor children, and the inmates shouldn't be running the institution, lol.

However, greater freedom should come with age and  demonstrated increases in maturity. That's how I raised mine. And there should be no retribution for thinking, voting, and believing differently than your parents.

And yes, of course people don't change all of a sudden. If you read accounts of those who got out of high controlling organizations, they all experienced doubts that troubled them greatly. Nobody ever said it was easy or simple to break away. It's a real struggle, particularly when you know you will be shunned, lose your support system, and perhaps income. I have nothing but the utmost respect for those who muster the courage to nonetheless do the right thing.

[Fluffy14]

14 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

In my experience people don't just change, they resist first.  

I can see this.  But how long do you have to resist?  In keeping this in line with the Duggar's specifically? Resistance does not have to take a long time..either you are willing to admit  something or not.....it really depends on your state of humility.  

2 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

And yes, of course people don't change all of a sudden.

Is the change action or in thought? I think those two things can be different. In the case of Duggar's if they recognize their whole existence is wrong , the recognition could be simply done quickly. Organizing visible change can take longer.