Boy Drowns at Fairhaven Baptist

[Adam Case]

10 minutes ago, EowynW said:

30 years independent baptist. Your church doesn't have a good reputation among a lot of the IFB community. 

I guess that makes us guilty as charged. Popular opinion is now the new standard. 

[EowynW]

Just now, Adam Case said:

I guess that makes us guilty as charged. Popular opinion is now the new standard. 

By their fruit you will know them. 

[formergothardite]

14 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

I didn't.

You did, do I need to quote you?

 You said multiple times that you didn't say anything. You either didn't say anything like you originally stated or you did say something and they got in trouble for it. If you did report them to the police, wouldn't have Fairhaven known? You said Fairhaven didn't know so they couldn't hold them accountable. Your story isn't adding up. There is giving out identifying information and then totally changing a story. If you had reported them for assault, it would have been very simple to say that instead of repeatedly saying that you didn't say anything about it. 

If you were trying to make Fairhaven look like a better church and school you have failed. SEVERELY.  From what I can tell defenders of the place don't convey their thoughts in a clear, orderly manner and the school apparently doesn't care if kids leave feeling abused and damaged because parents sent the kids there and paid for it. 

32 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

Mine is that the story changed when details are added.

Kind of like how you added the detail that you weren't really spending a hard time in prison, you were a prison guard doing his job? Or that instead of being a child who willfully disobeyed parents because you felt you knew better than them, you were just a toddler who couldn't possible understand? Or that instead of not saying anything about being beaten by adults,, you actually did say something and they were held accountable? 

 

[Adam Case]

8 minutes ago, polecat said:

Oh, so you're now saying that you were NOT a prison guard? 

The plot thickens ... 

Are you trying to get me to divulge my identity? I would prefer not to share that information. It makes me feel uncomfortable. 

[polecat]

Just now, Adam Case said:

Are you trying to get me to divulge my identity? I would prefer not to share that information. It makes me feel uncomfortable. 

I'm not -- I'm just being snarky. It's a thing here. If you are going to keep posting in the forum, it's something you'll see a lot.

 

[Grimalkin]

27 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

I guess that makes us guilty as charged. Popular opinion is now the new standard. 

      Do you think the bad reputation of Fairhaven is because they are righteous and few can walk the narrow path?  Or maybe it's being attacked by evil because Satan feels threatened by its righteousness? 

 

ETA: no snark intended.

[dpndetfarm]

I am new to this group (church) so probably my link is old news to all of you, but I'm done just teasing this idiotic apologist pseudo intellectual failure. Are ALL these people liars? Are the children of pastor scumbag Voegtlin BOTH pathological liars? Your leader went on TELEVISION for fuck sake, Anderson Cooper, and he was PROUD of how his schools dungeons beat and torture children. You honestly stick up for this psychopath? What the hell is wrong with you @Adam Case ? That place must have beaten you down until your brain was completely washed. I am so sorry you didn't experience my heathen childhood. Even with my short stint under the "big top".

Your leader and church are evil.

http://poundpuplegacy.org/node/52805

a little blurb:

TUCHMAN: Under state law, Anderson, Indiana is not allowed to oversee religious schools. It's very hard to have any kind of investigations of religious schools. So we don't know if there's any investigation, don't think there is.

We can tell you in the 1970s, the pastor and the headmaster at the school were both arrested. They both went to court. The headmaster was charged with aggravated assault and battery of a child. The -- Pastor Voegtlin was charged with conspiracy. The conspiracy charge against the pastor was dropped. The jury found the headmaster not guilty of aggravated assault.

But the jurors later said when they were interviewed they had would have found him guilty of a lesser charge of child abuse.

Nevertheless, the church considered that a victory.  I bet Voegtlin had some friends in influential places.  pausing for air.

[Walking Cat Bed]

15 hours ago, Nikedagain? said:

 17 hours ago, Adam Case said:

My apologies. I just figured that there should be a face behind an accusation. 

Hmmm. I dunno. You don't sound sorry at all. And stop asking her questions like that. 

 

Nope. That's not how this works. When someone states that abuse occurs, you don't get to ask for "a face behind an accusation" -- that's how victims are intimidated and silenced. 

[polecat]

I think this might explain a few things not just about, well, some IFB churches in general, but also about some opinions being shared. This is a closed system designed to protect itself at all costs.

https://www.abuseandrelationships.org/Content/Communal Abuse/communal_abuse.html

From the link: 

Quote

 

Special Leader. The rightness of the community is believed to reside not in set beliefs, not in long-established practices, not in durable principles, but in the guidance of the present leadership, which is the only source of truth ... 

Doctrine of Depravity This is the belief that members instincts, desires, tendencies, feelings, and inclinations, can't be trusted. If these things agree with the leadership fine, but if they do not, it is evidence of just how much the member needs the community ... 

Leaving is Taboo. Whatever the ideology, it always includes a doctrine that membership must be lifelong ...

Devaluing the Outsider This has many functions: 1) Isolates members from opposing ideas, 2) Isolates members from sources of attachment that would compete with the leader or community, 3) mobilizes the survival drive in members which is channeled into cult activities, 4) justifies deceptive practices, 5) provides a target to safely displace anger at oppressive conditions ...

Dissent Labeled as Mental Illness 

 

But here was the really big one I wanted to point out: 

Quote

 

Suppressing Outside Criticism: Abusive communities, much more so than abusive individuals, tend to use vigorous legal and social power means to attack and neutralize outside critics. The abusive interpersonal practices are denied, putting the burden of proof on the critic, and the issue is shifted to freedom of thought and religion, making the critic appear narrow-minded and bigoted. These efforts are not about vigorously presenting one side, they are actually about squelching criticism.

 

There is a TON more of really solid info at that link that will help anyone new to this kind of thing. These quotes are just the tiny tip of the iceberg -- but they're pretty telling, imo. 

[Georgiana]

11 minutes ago, Walking Cat Bed said:

Nope. That's not how this works. When someone states that abuse occurs, you don't get to ask for "a face behind an accusation" -- that's how victims are intimidated and silenced. 

Which is starting to sound like the MO of this organization:

--Identify accusers

--Attack accusers' character

--If that fails to stop things, intimidate accusers AND their families

--Create an argument using circular logic about why you are TOTALLY innocent and no one should EVER believe anyone (except for you, natch) and how choosing to believe one story over another based upon your own personal assessment of the sources is WRONG (except when you do it) unless they do exactly that but believe you, which is what you conclude they should do

@polecat, you hit the nail on the head.  That is exactly what is going on here.  

[Grimalkin]

Adam pm'd me to tell me that he could not respond to my question. Don't know if there is a glitch or a moderation thing, but I can't see why he would need moderation since he didn't break any rules. 

[RosyDaisy]

Fuck this noise! Adam Case, you are a disgusting piece of shit! You are engaging in condoning and covering up abuse as well victim blaming and lying. How dare you! How dare you, you sick son of a bitch! I'm not going to try to reason with you. Your kind can't be reasoned with. So, mother fucker, go crawl back under that rock you came from. There is absolutely nothing you can say that is believable. This all I have to say to you.

[polecat]

This is another story of another Fairhaven alum ... it has a happy ending, but it does underscore just how difficult it can be to get out of some IFB churches. Nigh unto impossible sometimes. How you're completely cut off from extended family members, you're left friendless, you lose your immediate family, and you're truly left drifting along virtually alone until you are able to rebuild your life.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_wedding/2012/07/erwynn_umali_and_will_behrens_the_first_gay_wedding_on_a_military_base_.html

Also, 

Quote

Will describes Fairhaven as “not a place I want to remember,” and says he’d never send his own children to school there.

Side note: Voegtlin once had a pulpit-rant (not really a sermon) for several hours about why he wasn't pro-Jack Hyles (which, hey, who is?) based almost solely on personal stories, rumors and anecdotes. But no one is allowed to not be pro-Fairhaven based on personal stories. Can you say "double standard"?

Oh, and @Adam Case, since it's been a while since I've been there -- is interracial dating still banned? 

[Marvin Miller]

Why are all the nice tolerant people on this forum so nasty when we try to reason with them.....Pretty sure I just got verbally abused on here...

[funyuns_and_fundies]

5 minutes ago, Marvin Miller said:

Why are all the nice tolerant people on this forum so nasty when we try to reason with them.....Pretty sure I just got verbally abused on here...

Funny how you accuse us of verbal abuse and yet refuse to give any credit to the many abuse accusations from people who spent time at Fairhaven. 

[Marvin Miller]

I'm going to start predicting the replys I get.This is like my cat with a laser

[Destiny]

56 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

Adam pm'd me to tell me that he could not respond to my question. Don't know if there is a glitch or a moderation thing, but I can't see why he would need moderation since he didn't break any rules. 

He is NOT in moderation of any kind, and there is no reason he can't respond here. 

[Georgiana]

5 minutes ago, Marvin Miller said:

Why are all the nice tolerant people on this forum so nasty when we try to reason with them.....Pretty sure I just got verbally abused on here...

1.  I certainly have never claimed to be nice.  FJ does not claim to be nice either.  

2.  Your reasoning is bad and you should feel bad.  The flaws in your logic and arguments have been pointed out several times now.

3.  Tolerance does NOT mean I have to agree with you or give you hugs or be nice to you.  I am fully free to find you and your beliefs absolutely abhorrent if I so choose.  What tolerance means is that I will not attempt to infringe on your rights or freedoms simply because you disagree with me.  You're still able to post, and we're still tolerating you.

4.  If you don't like engaging with us, don't engage with us.  

[Lurky]

I feel like it's time for the gif about axe murderers on the internet to come out again. 

[Grimalkin]

5 minutes ago, funyuns_and_fundies said:

Funny how you accuse us of verbal abuse and yet refuse to give any credit to the many abuse accusations from people who spent time at Fairhaven. 

Well that's what he wanted. He wanted that reaction and now is patting himself on his back because we are just a bunch of horrible nasty women.

     

1 minute ago, Destiny said:

He is NOT in moderation of any kind, and there is no reason he can't respond here. 

I didn't think so I just wanted clarity. The Chicago area is being battered by storms maybe his internet is acting up. Giving him the benefit of the doubt yadda, yadda, yadda.

6 minutes ago, Marvin Miller said:

I'm going to start predicting the replys I get.This is like my cat with a laser

Why don't you predict our reactions then. You seem so proud of yourself. Like she acted exactly as you wanted her to act. Now you have an amusing story to tell your friends!

[Destiny]

13 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

I didn't think so I just wanted clarity. The Chicago area is being battered by storms maybe his internet is acting up. Giving him the benefit of the doubt yadda, yadda, yadda.

No big. I just wanted to make it very clear. Also, if he had broken a rule (which he did not), if he was on moderation (which he is not), one of us would be approving non-rulebreaking posts in near real time, so that discussion was not impeded. 

[AlwaysExcited]

32 minutes ago, Marvin Miller said:

Why are all the nice tolerant people on this forum so nasty when we try to reason with them.....Pretty sure I just got verbally abused on here...

Why do people so often mess up niceness and kindness? /Rhetoric question that has nothing to do with discussion, just my pet peeve.

Also, Fairhaven seems to be neither fair, nor haven.

[Carm_88]

35 minutes ago, Marvin Miller said:

Why are all the nice tolerant people on this forum so nasty when we try to reason with them.....Pretty sure I just got verbally abused on here...

Why do you not listen to what we say? You are talking in circles and are certainly not making me think that this place isn't abusive. It's called a healthy debate. You might want to check your fragile ego, if you can't handle a few questions. 

[Destiny]

23 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

3.  Tolerance does NOT mean I have to agree with you or give you hugs or be nice to you.  I am fully free to find you and your beliefs absolutely abhorrent if I so choose.  What tolerance means is that I will not attempt to infringe on your rights or freedoms simply because you disagree with me.  You're still able to post, and we're still tolerating you.

 

I really want to stitch this on a sampler somewhere. People, someone disagreeing with you is NOT intolerance! LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE 

[Palimpsest]

Looks like Adam's shift has ended and Marvin has punched the clock.  They really need more and better staffing at the Fairhaven Abuse Apologist desk.

Do they know they are on a forum dedicated to critiquing and pointing out the dangers inherent in extreme Fundamentalism.  

Why on earth would we be either "nice" or "tolerant" towards their church and beliefs?