Boy Drowns at Fairhaven Baptist

[Curious]

Forget Rachel Maddow and Alan Rickman.  @formergothardite should be our #1 Patron Saint.  FSM knows she has the patience of a saint.

[Grimalkin]

I'm so proud that Fairhaven sent the goons out to set us straight. I didn't think we were that important.

I also want to note @Adam Case you are really bad at this. You sound ridiculous. I found @Marvin Miller more entertaining, can he come back? Can you maybe get someone else to help you, maybe someone with better logic and reasoning skills? we like a good debate here. 

[polecat]

7 hours ago, Adam Case said:

Unless there is someone like me trying to explain what is going on, it isn't likely that you will know that Fairhaven was vindicated. Did you hear about it from the media? Do you really think a liberal media will vindicate a group that they have just accused?

Snipped for brevity ... that bolded sentence sounds so much like Ken Alexander that it makes my brain swirl. It's too early in the morning for that! 

As for the second two sentences, the local media really doesn't have as much of a "liberal" bent as people think. They're just after a story. Really, truly, honestly -- once they find out there's no story, they drop it. That's why there's no interest in "vindicating" people. Not because there's a grand conspiracy to smear the name of Great Godly Institutions. 

Believe it or not, the whole world isn't out to get Fairhaven. 

[Adam Case]

12 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

 

I also want to note @Adam Case you are really bad at this. You sound ridiculous. I found @Marvin Miller more entertaining, can he come back? Can you maybe get someone else to help you, maybe someone with better logic and reasoning skills? we like a good debate here. 

 Didn't realize this was a debate. 

4 minutes ago, polecat said:

As for the second two sentences, the local media really doesn't have as much of a "liberal" bent as people think. They're just after a story. Really, truly, honestly -- once they find out there's no story, they drop it. That's why there's no interest in "vindicating" people. Not because there's a grand conspiracy to smear the name of Great Godly Institutions. 

Believe it or not, the whole world isn't out to get Fairhaven. 

Believe me, I know what you are saying is true. 

[Grimalkin]

10 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

 Didn't realize this was a debate. 

 

   Bless you.

[Carm_88]

People's perspectives on events in their lives are different as well. I am just thinking about fifth grade, I had a male teacher. I absolutely hated him and he clearly hated me, I would say that he was borderline abusive in the way that he yelled and belittled me. Every time I did something right at home, he told me that my Mommy did it for me and I had to spend time doing it again. A girl in the same class as me has him as a friend on facebook because she was teacher's pet. Just because some people have a good experience doesn't mean that others aren't being bullied and abused. 

[samurai_sarah]

@Adam Case

I'm trying to get my head around what you're saying here, please do correct me if I get you wrong:

- Fairhaven, as an institution should not be blamed for individual errors (with possibly fatal consequences).

- You have had nothing but good experiences at Fairhaven

- Fairhaven instructs in Biblical discipline

- The person who drowned was a visitor from another church, someone else was responsible for watching

- Fairhaven made that clear to visitors, and is not to be held responsible.

- You don't believe testimonies of abuse.

- Fairhaven has been repeatedly investigated.

 

If I got that right, I see a lot of issues. Not with the drowning per se. As other posters and you have pointed out, drowning can happen so quickly that no one notices. So, let's leave that aside for a moment.

I do wonder though why Fairhaven has been investigated, not once, but repeatedly. Why? Why would so many people come forward? If it is nothing, then I wonder what annoys people about Fairhaven so much that it keeps on getting such scrutiny? If a place gets investigated often, one does start to wonder.

Which leads me to my second issue. What do the people coming forward have to gain? The Catholic church's well-published abuse scandals didn't come to light for financial gain. The victims wanted justice. What is different about Fairhaven? Why do people come out of the woodwork now? Is it some grand conspiracy? Coincidence?

I have wonderful memories of growing up Catholic. But that doesn't mitigate anything. Just because *I* didn't see the ugly side, doesn't mean it never happened.

Lastly: I do wonder. Is it possible that the testimonies of abuse have come out now, because the alleged victims are adults now? I wonder if the Biblical discipline at Fairhaven teaches the same thing I learned in Catholic religious education? That would be "shut up, put up, and spread the word quietly". I wonder.

 

 

ETA: With my apologies to all believing Catholics. Please understand that I am talking about MY religious education.

[EowynW]

"Fairhaven instructs in Biblical discipline."

 

I don't even remember "Biblical discipline" ever being taught in the Bible. Just like "Biblical Womanhood", "Biblical Manhood", "Biblical Parenthood" etc. Lord have mercy on us for what we have done in the name of being biblical. 

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, Adam Case said:

Human error. I got you mixed up with someone else. I guess I'm not perfect either.

Human error is normal and understandable. But you do realize your posts tend to not make a ton of sense? You start off writing a post that implies you went to jail, to show that people can learn from bad experience, but it ends up that isn't true. You just worked at a jail. I know of no one who would say "I spent time in jail" when they meant "I was employed by the prison system." 

You move on to saying that Fairhaven taught you discipline that you needed because you didn't understand things like don't touch a hot stove. When pressed more on this issue you sort of imply(really I can't follow you that well at all, so feel free to correct me) that you were a toddler who didn't understand not to touch a stove. That means that you were behaving in a developmentally appropriate way and so this is completely irrelevant to if Fairehaven taught you discipline and character. Why bring it up? If you were not a toddler/preschooler, then there were some bigger things going on that most likely needed to be addressed by an actual doctor. 

You admit the teachers were rough. Could it be that  what felt like rough to you impacted another student a great deal more and caused long lasting damage? In my life I was  raised in IBLP. There are people who went to the same program as me and were either impacted less or more than I was. Some people walked away from it with no problems at all, others walked away suicidal. "Rough"(could you specify this more) treatment that doesn't bother you could have pushed others over the edge. 

You then say that adults beat you up but you didn't report it. You kind of imply that it happened at Fairhaven, but you won't ever specify. If it did, then yes, the church should hold partial blame for a minor(and adults who appear, again you will have to clarify, to be attending the church) being beaten on church property. But the bigger question is why you never felt like you should report the abuse to anyone. What in your life caused you to keep this a secret? Being beaten up by adults is fairly significant. 

 

[Adam Case]

43 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

 

People's perspectives on events in their lives are different as well. I am just thinking about fifth grade, I had a male teacher. I absolutely hated him and he clearly hated me, I would say that he was borderline abusive in the way that he yelled and belittled me. Every time I did something right at home, he told me that my Mommy did it for me and I had to spend time doing it again. A girl in the same class as me has him as a friend on facebook because she was teacher's pet. Just because some people have a good experience doesn't mean that others aren't being bullied and abused. 

 

I agree with you 100%. I can't say enough, I know that people have been hurt and wronged. What I am saying is that the specific stories they told are not accurate. It is not a perspective. I am talking about actual details. 

32 minutes ago, EowynW said:

 

"Fairhaven instructs in Biblical discipline."

 

I don't even remember "Biblical discipline" ever being taught in the Bible. Just like "Biblical Womanhood", "Biblical Manhood", "Biblical Parenthood" etc. Lord have mercy on us for what we have done in the name of being biblical. 

 

The Bible gives instruction in all of these topics that you mentioned. I'm not asking you to believe it. Clearly you don't. If one doesn't want to believe the Bible, then Fairhaven is not for them. We as a church don't force a belief. Unfortunately, there have been parents that tried to force their child through a system that the child didn't want and that is where the problems start. It is much easier to blame the church than it is your own family. I get that. Children only come to Fairhaven because the parents want them there. If the child doesn't want to follow the parent's wishes, that is between the child and their parents. If the child demonstrates that they will not follow their parents wishes, the school actually does kick them out. I know. I was kicked out once.  

[Georgiana]

46 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

ETA: With my apologies to all believing Catholics. Please understand that I am talking about MY religious education.

No need to apologize.  Bad things happened.  They should NOT have.  There is NO excuse for what happened.  And the positive experiences of ALL the Catholics IN THE WORLD cannot and should not cancel out what happened to those victims.  It's not math, where positives and negatives cancel out.  Experiences stand alone.  

[Adam Case]

23 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Human error is normal and understandable. But you do realize your posts tend to not make a ton of sense? You start off writing a post that implies you went to jail, to show that people can learn from bad experience, but it ends up that isn't true. You just worked at a jail. I know of no one who would say "I spent time in jail" when they meant "I was employed by the prison system." 

You move on to saying that Fairhaven taught you discipline that you needed because you didn't understand things like don't touch a hot stove. When pressed more on this issue you sort of imply(really I can't follow you that well at all, so feel free to correct me) that you were a toddler who didn't understand not to touch a stove. That means that you were behaving in a developmentally appropriate way and so this is completely irrelevant to if Fairehaven taught you discipline and character. Why bring it up? If you were not a toddler/preschooler, then there were some bigger things going on that most likely needed to be addressed by an actual doctor. 

You admit the teachers were rough. Could it be that  what felt like rough to you impacted another student a great deal more and caused long lasting damage? In my life I was  raised in IBLP. There are people who went to the same program as me and were either impacted less or more than I was. Some people walked away from it with no problems at all, others walked away suicidal. "Rough"(could you specify this more) treatment that doesn't bother you could have pushed others over the edge. 

You then say that adults beat you up but you didn't report it. You kind of imply that it happened at Fairhaven, but you won't ever specify. If it did, then yes, the church should hold partial blame for a minor(and adults who appear, again you will have to clarify, to be attending the church) being beaten on church property. But the bigger question is why you never felt like you should report the abuse to anyone. What in your life caused you to keep this a secret? Being beaten up by adults is fairly significant. 

First off, it may seem that I am jumping topics a lot. That is because I am trying to answer a lot of questions that have been put to me. I'm answer as logically as I can. Blame it on my ADD. Have you ever met a correctional officer? That is how we talk. Everything I said was completely true, and yes, implications were made. I don't understand how you can't see that I'm not the only one doing the implying. I told my story, leaving out one detail that completely changed the story. I'm telling you, the same thing happened on CNN. I know of 2 very specific stories that were told that left out a detail that completely changed the story. 

I better change paragraphs so that you know I am answering a different question now. 

The stove story was real and as a toddler, I did get burned because I knew more than my parents. It is just one of many examples rules that I was forced to live by that turned out to be for my own good. 

I know that perspectives can be different and that what is 'rough' to some can be worse for some and not as bad for others. It is the same idea of pain tolerance. My answer is that parents are responsible for how their kids are raised. If they want their child to have a Fairhaven education, they have to agree to the rules. It is the parents ultimate decision to put their child through the education system. If a child doesn't want to be there, the parent should be responsible for the outcome. They are the ones that pay to have their kids in a private school. 

As far as the incident with me and the 2 adults, the details are not important. It is not something I want to relive. You don't know me and you really can't trust my judgment for that reason. In my mind, I made the right choice then and without knowing the story, you really can't say wether I made the right choice or not. Since I will not be sharing the details, I would like to leave this topic alone. 

[funyuns_and_fundies]

3 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

First off, it may seem that I am jumping topics a lot. That is because I am trying to answer a lot of questions that have been put to me. I'm answer as logically as I can. Blame it on my ADD. Have you ever met a correctional officer? That is how we talk. Everything I said was completely true, and yes, implications were made. I don't understand how you can't see that I'm not the only one doing the implying. I told my story, leaving out one detail that completely changed the story. I'm telling you, the same thing happened on CNN. I know of 2 very specific stories that were told that left out a detail that completely changed the story. 

I better change paragraphs so that you know I am answering a different question now. 

The stove story was real and as a toddler, I did get burned because I knew more than my parents. It is just one of many examples rules that I was forced to live by that turned out to be for my own good. 

I know that perspectives can be different and that what is 'rough' to some can be worse for some and not as bad for others. It is the same idea of pain tolerance. My answer is that parents are responsible for how their kids are raised. If they want their child to have a Fairhaven education, they have to agree to the rules. It is the parents ultimate decision to put their child through the education system. If a child doesn't want to be there, the parent should be responsible for the outcome. They are the ones that pay to have their kids in a private school. 

As far as the incident with me and the 2 adults, the details are not important. It is not something I want to relive. You don't know me and you really can't trust my judgment for that reason. In my mind, I made the right choice then and without knowing the story, you really can't say wether I made the right choice or not. Since I will not be sharing the details, I would like to leave this topic alone. 

I feel like the majority of your responses have been very vague and circular. The stove thing isn't really making sense. You knew more than your parents as a toddler and and got burned??? Whatever point you were trying to make with that story just isn't coming across.

 

[Carm_88]

45 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

I agree with you 100%. I can't say enough, I know that people have been hurt and wronged. What I am saying is that the specific stories they told are not accurate. It is not a perspective. I am talking about actual details. 

Again, that still comes down to perspective. I remember things in exact detail because it was hurtful to me, it had a lasting impact on me. Would that other girl remember it as hurtful or cruel? Likely not. She would say that it was just a joke. That doesn't change the fact that I cried every single day. 

[EowynW]

1 hour ago, Adam Case said:

I agree with you 100%. I can't say enough, I know that people have been hurt and wronged. What I am saying is that the specific stories they told are not accurate. It is not a perspective. I am talking about actual details. 

The Bible gives instruction in all of these topics that you mentioned. I'm not asking you to believe it. Clearly you don't. If one doesn't want to believe the Bible, then Fairhaven is not for them. We as a church don't force a belief. Unfortunately, there have been parents that tried to force their child through a system that the child didn't want and that is where the problems start. It is much easier to blame the church than it is your own family. I get that. Children only come to Fairhaven because the parents want them there. If the child doesn't want to follow the parent's wishes, that is between the child and their parents. If the child demonstrates that they will not follow their parents wishes, the school actually does kick them out. I know. I was kicked out once.  

Don't give me that talk. I am a third generation baptist preacher's kid, also married to a 3rd generation baptist preacher's kid. I know exactly how it all works.  Know how church politics work. I know how the ugly behind the scenes work. I know the lingo. I know how to play this game  

I never said I didn't believe the Bible. I do believe it. I love it and my Lord dearly. But I have no problems admitting how much we have mucked about with scripture and people by this nonsense of the Biblical 'hoods when they are never taught clearly in scripture. And by how we fail to study context, the original texts, and the culture of the day when interpreting our Bibles. The only 'hood in the Bible taught is the individual priesthood and personhood of us in Christ. We are to grow in Him, using our own unique talents and gifts, even though often you'll find yourself not fitting a 'hood checklist when you do. But it's much more rich and free to just focus on growing in Christ without fitting in a 'hood. 

And I will say, your church has long held an iffy reputation both in the community at large and with other area churches. I'm not even in the same state and I know about your church through the network of baptist & church news that goes around These are true red flags. As we will be known by our fruit. So I would encourage you to keep an open mind. 

[formergothardite]

9 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

I did get burned because I knew more than my parents. It is just one of many examples rules that I was forced to live by that turned out to be for my own good. 

If you were a toddler, you got burned for being a toddler. Toddlers couldn't expect to know that, which is why they have parents to supervise and ensure that they can't touch hot stoves. Developmentally it wasn't that you knew more than your parents, it was that your brain simply wasn't developed enough to understand. I'm not sure why you brought it up because discipline and character wouldn't have prevented it you getting burned. Adult supervision would have. 

13 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

If a child doesn't want to be there, the parent should be responsible for the outcome.

And it is the school's responsibility to be in tune with the children they are in charge of and not do things that cause harm. It sounds like you are saying the school gives no fucks if their teaching methods hurt children because parents pay them to do this. You aren't making Fairhaven sound good at all. 

15 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

I made the right choice then and without knowing the story, you really can't say wether I made the right choice or not.

I can assure you it is never the right choice for adults to get away with abuse. Two adults hurt you and it isn't okay and they should have been held accountable. I'm sorry that you were not taught that. No child should be made to feel like they shouldn't report abuse. Going forward, the school and church should make sure that all the children there know that the right choice is to always report abuse. ALWAYS. There is no justification for what happened to you or for them not being held accountable. 

[dpndetfarm]

6 minutes ago, funyuns_and_fundies said:

I feel like the majority of your responses have been very vague and circular. The stove thing isn't really making sense. You knew more than your parents as a toddler and and got burned??? Whatever point you were trying to make with that story just isn't coming across.

 

Yeah, well when I was 5 we were at the house my parents were about to close on and I bent down to pat the present  owner's sleeping St. Bernard and it bit me in the face and then I walked, bleeding, around the house to where the grownups were and so my parents told me I should not try to play Lion Tamer, laughed, and took me to the E.R. so FAIRHAVEN!

Don't you get it? I don't want to talk about it anymore.  So I know. Yup.

[Adam Case]

21 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Again, that still comes down to perspective. I remember things in exact detail because it was hurtful to me, it had a lasting impact on me. Would that other girl remember it as hurtful or cruel? Likely not. She would say that it was just a joke. That doesn't change the fact that I cried every single day. 

Clearly, that is your perspective. Mine is that the story changed when details are added. I would like to repeat myself in saying that people have been hurt. Obviously, they have. I'm saying that the story is different from how they told it. If it happened the way they said it, I would totally agree with them. What I know is not a perspective. What one believes based on what I know is perspective. 

[Adam Case]

20 minutes ago, EowynW said:

Don't give me that talk. I am a third generation baptist preacher's kid, also married to a 3rd generation baptist preacher's kid. I know exactly how it all works.  Know how church politics work. I know how the ugly behind the scenes work. I know the lingo. I know how to play this game  

I never said I didn't believe the Bible. I do believe it. I love it and my Lord dearly. But I have no problems admitting how much we have mucked about with scripture and people by this nonsense of the Biblical 'hoods when they are never taught clearly in scripture. And by how we fail to study context, the original texts, and the culture of the day when interpreting our Bibles. The only 'hood in the Bible taught is the individual priesthood and personhood of us in Christ. We are to grow in Him, using our own unique talents and gifts, even though often you'll find yourself not fitting a 'hood checklist when you do. But it's much more rich and free to just focus on growing in Christ without fitting in a 'hood. 

And I will say, your church has long held an iffy reputation both in the community at large and with other area churches. I'm not even in the same state and I know about your church through the network of baptist & church news that goes around These are true red flags. As we will be known by our fruit. So I would encourage you to keep an open mind. 

I'm not a preachers kid. And you believe differently than we do. Guess what! It's okay. We all have to answer for our own decisions. That means I have to answer for mine. For that reason, I read the Bible and study it in its entirety to include the original text, contextual content and historical context (did I mention all of them?). You will not ding me forcing my beliefs on you, much like Fairhaven doesn't force their beliefs. If Fairhaven isn't for you, then I encourage you to find the right church for you. Have you ever been to Fairhaven? Don't answer that. I'm not sure where you grew up, but I really don't think it is fare to equate us, because we are independent. We don't answer to another church. That means there is probably not another church out there just like us. It isn't fare to us or them to stereotype. 

26 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I can assure you it is never the right choice for adults to get away with abuse. Two adults hurt you and it isn't okay and they should have been held accountable. I'm sorry that you were not taught that. No child should be made to feel like they shouldn't report abuse. Going forward, the school and church should make sure that all the children there know that the right choice is to always report abuse. ALWAYS. There is no justification for what happened to you or for them not being held accountable. 

Who said they got away with it? I didn't. I simply didn't tell the whole story because it is none of your business who they are. If I gave details, you could figure out who I am as well as the guilty parties. I'm pretty sure I was warned about pushing for identities earlier. I'm trying to avoid another warning. 

[polecat]

15 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

Clearly, that is your perspective. Mine is that the story changed when details are added.

This isn't actually proof that a story is false or even that truth is being distorted. It's just proof that ... sometimes details are added later. Because sometimes people don't tell the whole story upfront either because they don't want to, they don't remember the whole story or they don't trust their listeners entirely. 

None of that is evidence of the "story changing" or people deliberately misleading others.

If it were, then your comments about your difficult time in Indiana State Prison/Penitentiary/whatever (easily disproven by those darn Google tactics), which changed later could therefore lead one to believe that your own veracity is somewhat questionable. 

18 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

What I know is not a perspective. What one believes based on what I know is perspective. 

Yes, indeed.

 

 

[Adam Case]

1 hour ago, dpndetfarm said:

Yeah, well when I was 5 we were at the house my parents were about to close on and I bent down to pat the present  owner's sleeping St. Bernard and it bit me in the face and then I walked, bleeding, around the house to where the grownups were and so my parents told me I should not try to play Lion Tamer, laughed, and took me to the E.R. so FAIRHAVEN!

Don't you get it? I don't want to talk about it anymore.  So I know. Yup.

I'm not really sure how this relates to Fairhaven. As far as I know, Fairhaven has never owned a St. Bernard. It seems like the crude humor would have been your parents fault. 

28 minutes ago, polecat said:

Yes, indeed.

Yes. I believe everything I get from Google too. 

[EowynW]

@Adam Case 30 years independent baptist. Your church doesn't have a good reputation among a lot of the IFB community. 

 

[polecat]

4 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

I'm not really sure how this relates to Fairhaven. As far as I know, Fairhaven has never owned a St. Bernard. It seems like the crude humor would have been your parents fault. 

Yes. I believe everything I get from Google too. 

Oh, so you're now saying that you were NOT a prison guard? 

The plot thickens ... 

[Adam Case]

8 minutes ago, polecat said:

29 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

 

This isn't actually proof that a story is false or even that truth is being distorted. It's just proof that ... sometimes details are added later. Because sometimes people don't tell the whole story upfront either because they don't want to, they don't remember the whole story or they don't trust their listeners entirely. 

None of that is evidence of the "story changing" or people deliberately misleading others.

If it were, then your comments about your difficult time in Indiana State Prison/Penitentiary/whatever (easily disproven by those darn Google tactics), which changed later could therefore lead one to believe that your own veracity is somewhat questionable. 

I'm not trying to prove anything. If I was, I would have given details a long time ago. I simply demonstrated that a detail that is intentionally left out can change the whole face of the story. I'm just trying to help people understand that things aren't always as they seem. can you take that with an open mind?

[polecat]

1 minute ago, Adam Case said:

I'm not trying to prove anything. If I was, I would have given details a long time ago. I simply demonstrated that a detail that is intentionally left out can change the whole face of the story. I'm just trying to help people understand that things aren't always as they seem. can you take that with an open mind?

I don't think that we're the ones who aren't open-minded. 

Perhaps you're the one who doesn't seem to grasp that things aren't always as squeaky clean as they seem on the outside and that sometimes the brightest, shiniest exteriors can sometimes hide the ugliest sins.