Boy Drowns at Fairhaven Baptist

[PopRox]

Sewwwwwww I just watched the CNN video. Check out 4:55-- sounds an awful lot like our "friend" Marvin Miller.

 

Actually, there's a LOT that sounds like MM's posts.

You're not fooling anyone.

[Adam Case]

1 hour ago, Nikedagain? said:

Hmmm. I dunno. You don't sound sorry at all. And stop asking her questions like that. 

Hmmmm. You say that as if I continued to press for an answer. Not very open-minded are you?

[Destiny]

For love of all that is holy, please let’s leave the usernames / real names argument out. I can’t be held responsible for my actions if another thread devolves into the username discussion.

[Adam Case]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

@Adam Case, I suggest that you take a big step back from your impassioned defense.  And take a very deep breath.  Or several.

A child died.  Isn't the dead child and their grieving family the priority here?  

Think about it.  Can you really claim that you know everything that ever went on at Fairhaven? 

How can you? 

Sometimes people disgust me.  And this is one of those times.

 

I think I already addressed this issue. The facts are simple and undisputed. It was an accidental death, and a tragedy. The fact still remains that it was a different church that was using our facilities. If the same group went to Holiday Inn or any other semi-private pool and a child died, you wouldn't blame the facility. It would still be a tragedy that the child died. 

I never claimed to know everything that went on at Fairhaven. What I can say is that many of the stories were distorted and worse. Again, I repeat myself. I was there. I do know what was going on. One of the reasons I didn't say which stories were not true is because I can't speak for all of them. I was very clear, I think that I know some of them to be false and others that defy logic. Since you weren't where I was, you cannot say that I wasn't there. I will be glad to discuss my contradictions face to face with any of them that are interested in discussing it. Since then, I have spoken personally with two of them and I repeat, both of them have apologized for what they said  

Yes, a child died. The many members of Fairhaven are heartbroken with the family and the church that they go to. Because I cannot know the mind of everyone, I cannot say that everyone is heartbroken, before someone here accuses me of reading minds.  I think the evidence speaks for itself, as all of the funeral costs have been covered by members of Fairhaven. That's right, people who had absolutely nothing to do with the tragedy have reached into their pockets to help. What have you done?

 

17 minutes ago, Destiny said:

 

For love of all that is holy, please let’s leave the usernames / real names argument out. I can’t be held responsible for my actions if another thread devolves into the username discussion.

 

I truly appreciate that. 

1 hour ago, polecat said:

I am not sure this is the appropriate place for this, but the helpmeets can delete if necessary. This is the GFM for Davion's funeral. It has his picture along with his family's. These are real people who are hurting desperately right now.

https://www.gofundme.com/davions-funeral-fund

It saddens me that such a thing is even necessary. In a perfect world, he'd still be here. But even in a flawed world, I'd like to think that people would have come together to take care of this without his heartbroken mom having to worry about it. 

His mom didn't have to worry about it at all, although I can understand your point. Their pastor posted that and within 2 days, Fairhaven members did come together and paid for the funeral completely. The funeral actually cost $7500. The rest is to help the mother out while she gets the family back on her feet. I'm sure you will find the the rest will come in before the funeral. 

[Adam Case]

2 hours ago, Georgiana said:

But right now with the way supporters have immediately protested any form of oversight and stooped to aggressive character assassination to try and discredit every person with a complaint against the church...NOW I think they're hiding something. And you can't blame punk kids or CNN for that.

Are you implying that I tried to discredit everyone? Again, I was very specific. I knew most of them and I was there for many of the stories. I was not there for all of them and I cannot speak intelligently on all of them. In fact, I did not actually discredit any of them because I never said a name and I never referenced a story. What I did say was that I will be glad to discuss it with them personally. That is how we do it in America. We are allowed to face our accusers. Since none of you are them, you can't really argue with me. I was there. You weren't. 

On that note, come in and investigate. The police did. The health department did. The insurance company did. The fire department did. Fairhaven is very transparent. Come and see. We opened our doors to the investigators. The inspectors found our rules and regulations to be more strict than those required by law. The autopsy was completed and the boy was found to have no signs of foul play. There were no marks or bruises. There was no sign of discipline or abuse. I'm really not sure haw this all ties in with a CNN report from years ago. 

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

This isn't a blog. This is a forum where we discuss the dangers of fundamentalism.

I stand corrected. 

[Adam Case]

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

This isn't a blog. This is a forum where we discuss the dangers of fundamentalism. You said you hated Fairhaven but that it taught you things much like the time you spent as a prisoner taught you things(by the way, congrats on turning your life around after getting out of jail!), what made you hate the place? 

Lol. I should have been more clear on my statement. I was a Correctional Officer at the prison. I hated Fairhaven because they were trying to instill discipline in me. They were trying to teach me to have character. They were trying to teach me to do the right thing when no one was looking. I didn't understand why my parents told me not to touch the stove or play in the streets. I even hated them for the way they took my liberties away from me. I hated them until I discovered that it was for my own good that they gave me such restrictions. Fairhaven taught me many things. The teachings were rough. I have made a career out of learning the hard way, if you get my drift.  Is that I am grown, I look back and see that they were trying to instill in me Biblical principles. These are the same principles that my parents were also trying to teach me. That leads me to a very important point. Fairhaven is very clear on the stance it takes concerning these principles. Nobody is forced by Fairhaven to stay at Fairhaven. We encourage people who don't want to be at Fairhaven to find a church or group that they want to be in. The issue (with the people on CNN) is that the parents wanted their kids to be at Fairhaven and the parents wanted their kids to be taught by Fairhaven. If the kids don't want to be at Fairhaven, that is really an issue between them and their parents. I know of kids that don't want to be Boy Scouts, but their parents make them do it anyway. Should the Boy Scouts stop doing what Boy Scouts do because a child doesn't want to be a Boy Scout? I think not. Fairhaven has made changes to be more socially acceptable, but we still are trying to raise children according to what we see in he Bible. Over the years, we have been investigated, because any time there is an accusation, wether it has grounds or not, they investigate. We cooperate with investigators. They have been in very proverbial room. We aren't hiding anything. Have people been abused over the years? I wasn't there for 45 years, but for the 25 most recent, I haven't seen abuse. This obviously doesn't prove the absesnce of abuse, but I am certain that I speak with more authority than most people in is forum. I do know that I was physically beat by 2 of those young men from the CNN video. I might add that they were legal adults and I was not when they beat me. Should I blame this on Fairhaven? They didn't have anything to do with it. In fact, had I said something, Fairhaven would have held them accountable.  Instead,  I chose to learn very valuable lessons from my time in he school. 

3 hours ago, Georgiana said:

Unless you were actually there you ARE actually just relating a story someone told you as fact. 

I was there. Were you? Don't answer that. I don't want to get accused of fishing for identities again. 

[Adam Case]

4 hours ago, polecat said:

 

There's no need to take any story as gospel, but there's a pretty decent halfway point where you can believe that someone was hurt even if they got a few details mixed up. You don't have to call them a liar or insist they distorted the truth (like maybe pretending they spent time in the foster care system when they were actually a foster parent).

I don't recall calling anyone a liar. I said that there were lies told, because I was there. I also know that people were hurt. One person clearly talks about being hurt by a staff member and it is true. What this person didn't say was that the person was hurt by a staff member who was also their parent. When Fairhaven found out about the hurt, it wasn't tolerated. The staff member was fired and hasn't been back since. I know people have been hurt. I have been hurt. Fairhaven is not responsible for this hurt though. At least not as far as I can tell. I have to throw in that disclaimer because I haven't been in all places at all times. 

By the way, I know my 'story' was vague, but again, I will be more than happy to discuss it face to face. That mud doesn't need to be splattered on a public forum. 

4 hours ago, Seahorse Wrangler said:

Would there have  been enough time to have completed a full autopsy?

 

I have no idea how long one takes but it seems a pretty small turn-around time .

The papers reported the results of the autopsy.  At the time of the report, they were still waiting on the toxicology report. I haven't seen an updated report since I believe the 7th. I could be wrong on the date, but it has been several days. 

3 hours ago, PopRox said:

 

Actually, there's a LOT that sounds like MM's posts.

You're not fooling anyone.

You aren't implying that I am Marvin Miller, are you?

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

@formergothardite--Thank you for pointing out the difference between our forum and a blog. Lori Alexander's fangirls may think her blog entries are "articles", but FJ is definitely not a blog. 

And I sincerely hope this is a typo:

12 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

The poets reported the results of the autopsy.

 

[Adam Case]

3 hours ago, Georgiana said:

 

And it is, hypothetically at least, equally possible that the organization will be vindicated by the investigation. 

 

What most people don't realize is that Fairhaven has been vindicated. Investigators are satisfied. Financials, ethics, and legal issues are all in order. Who did you hear the accusations from? Think in your mind. I don't want an answer for that last question. Was it a person? If they made an accusation that was later vindicated, is it likely that they will tell you about it? Was it in a forum that you heard it? Unless there is someone like me trying to explain what is going on, it isn't likely that you will know that Fairhaven was vindicated. Did you hear about it from the media? Do you really think a liberal media will vindicate a group that they have just accused? Occasionally they do, but it is usually in hushed tones. No, this is how the word gets out. I heard that there were people that were not informed and I am simply trying to bring some facts to light. I remember years ago, someone called social services on my parents. They accused my parents of beating me about the face until I was bloody taking turns while the other held my arms behind my back. Social services did an investigation because that is what they should have done. They did not find one mark on me. Not a bruise, cut or scar. As it turns out, a person called in an accusation out of spite (we believe) to get back at my parents for something. This is speculation because they of course did not tell us who made the accusation. My parents were vindicated. The same has happened over the years at Fairhaven. Someone makes a claim and it is investigated. Social services don't publish when a person is found innocent in a case like this. The send a report to the accused saying that they have been cleared. That is just how it works. I wish they would publish it so the world knows, but sadly they don't.

 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Ah the bad bad librul media and the poor poor persecuted children spanking Christians...it grows old after a while.

[Adam Case]

15 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

 

Ah the bad bad librul media and the poor poor persecuted children spanking Christians...it grows old after a while.

 

So do accusations from people that have only heard stories and make assumptions, but don't know anything about what really happened. The tragedy wasn't a day old before people (notice I said 'people') were reporting that it was a punishment gone bad or implicating murder and conspiracy in the drowning. You cannot deny that the media failed to report the coroners finding that there was no foul play, just like you cannot deny that Fairhaven had no more to do with the incident than simply providing a place for a supervised group of boys to go and swim. Check your facts. 

[formergothardite]

5 hours ago, Adam Case said:

Lol. I should have been more clear on my statement. I was a Correctional Officer at the prison.

You pretty much implied you were in jail. Your statement:

Quote

. I spent some time in Indiana State Prison and my experience there was part of the worst moments of my life, 

would almost never be taken as "I was getting paid to work in the prison system. 

5 hours ago, Adam Case said:

I didn't understand why my parents told me not to touch the stove or play in the streets.

Were you in preschool? I don't get it. Don't touch the stove are things most kids learn pretty quickly and if you were older, what caused you to not understand the basic premise that a hot stove would burn your hand or that cars can hit you  and make you die? 

5 hours ago, Adam Case said:

We

It is pretty obvious from your liberal amounts of "we" that you are deep into this church/school and bound to be on the biased side. I'm not sure if this is something they taught you at Fairhaven, but it is often hard for people to see and accept the faults of a group they are deeply connected to. 

5 hours ago, Adam Case said:

If the kids don't want to be at Fairhaven, that is really an issue between them and their parents. I know of kids that don't want to be Boy Scouts, but their parents make them do it anyway. Should the Boy Scouts stop doing what Boy Scouts do because a child doesn't want to be a Boy Scout? I think not.

No, of course not, but I do think the Boy Scouts would be wise to tell parents that they shouldn't force their children against their will to participate. I was a Girl Scout, I despised it and got nothing out of it.  My parents pulled me out because it is a waste of time and money to force kids to do optional things that they despise.  The thing with Fairhaven is that the children are spending a good chunk of their day there and it sounds like the school isn't telling parents that this program isn't a good fit for every child. 

5 hours ago, Adam Case said:

I do know that I was physically beat by 2 of those young men from the CNN video. I might add that they were legal adults and I was not when they beat me. Should I blame this on Fairhaven? They didn't have anything to do with it. In fact, had I said something, Fairhaven would have held them accountable.

Was this on school/church property? If so, yes, they are responsible for two adults beating up someone who isn't legally an adult. If what you learned at Fairhaven led you to believe that you needed to not tell people when two adults beat you up, then that is another red flag. These guys should have been held responsible by the actual police and it was the job of the school/church to make sure every single student understood that if adults hurt a child, they need to be reported to the proper authorities.  

[Adam Case]

See how much can be assumed when you don't have all of the facts? I didn't give you the facts because it really wasn't important. And no, Fairhaven did not teach me not to make people accountable for their actions. How I came to my decision is none of your business. No again, Fairhaven was not involved in what these boys did. You make so many assumptions. You assume that because I went at Fairhaven and so did the 2 boys that what happened was Fairhaven's fault because they provided a facility for it to happen. You assumed that they had something to do with me not saying anything. This is the same assumption you have made with another story that was told on CNN. I know. I was there. 

13 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Was this on school/church property? If so, yes, they are responsible for two adults beating up someone who isn't legally an adult

If a minor is beat up in a Walmart parking lot by 2 adults, should we prosecute the Walmart manager as an accomplice and make him responsible? What if he doesn't even know it happened? 

[Adam Case]

On 7/9/2017 at 0:27 PM, Georgiana said:

You seem to have misconceptions on how the American legal system works.  Just because charges are never pressed does NOT mean the reports are false, but rather that the state could not collect enough evidence or has otherwise declined to prosecute. Do you think the ONLY major crime Al Capone committed was tax evasion? That's just all they could "make stick". Religious groups, like the mafia, tend to be hard to prosecute because everyone tends to attempt to protect the group. 

And the adults were not arrested YET. Key word there. The investigation is still ongoing, and especially when the charges are serious it is not uncommon for arrests not to be made immediately. 

You seem to have a misconception of our legal system. In America, a person is innocent until proven guilty. It's a good thing you aren't in charge. 

The adults have been cleared by investigators. 

........more assumptions by people that just don't know the facts. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

29 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

If a minor is beat up in a Walmart parking lot by 2 adults, should we prosecute the Walmart manager as an accomplice and make him responsible? What if he doesn't even know it happened? 

Did the prents of the minor entrust the care of said minor to the Walmart manager? Was there omitted surveillance? Was there negligence or complicity? The minor was there for educational or spiritual purposes?/sarcasm

A church/school =/= Walmart, your comparison is flawed.

BTW @formergothardite made no assumptions, she said (paraphrasing) "IF it happened on Fairhaven grounds".

[Adam Case]

How can you say that when you don't know the details? Again, more assumptions. All those questions you just asked? They are all assumptions you made when you said that Fairhaven was responsible. You were not there.  You could not possibly know the circumstances around what happened, yet you assume that Fairhaven is to blame. Nice. 

[formergothardite]

56 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

You make so many assumptions. You assume that because I went at Fairhaven and so did the 2 boys that what happened was Fairhaven's fault because they provided a facility for it to happen. You assumed that they had something to do with me not saying anything. This is the same assumption you have made with another story that was told on CNN. I know. I was there. 

I made no assumptions. I asked for clarification because the way you wrote implied that it happened at Fairhaven and I wanted to make sure. If it had happened, yes they were responsible. If it didn't happen there, how could they have held them accountable? Called the police? Did your parents not notice you were beaten up and find out why? Why did you not report it to the proper authorities? It is not okay to let adults get away with beating up children. The school/church should have made sure all students and children learned this at a very, very early age. 

Also, why didn't you understand not to touch a hot stove if you had moved past the toddler/preschool age? That point is still confusing me. 

If Walmart had been left in charge of a minor and two adults beat him up and they did nothing, yes they should have been charged. This isn't a Walmart situation, though this was your church/school. IF  it took place in the parking lot of the church or school they share some responsibility and  you should have felt that the first thing you did was report it to an adult so that it could be reported to the police. So we are back to why you didn't. What made you feel like you should keep the abuse hidden instead of reporting it?

[Adam Case]

You have been making assumptions this whole time based off of an experience you had 25 years ago and an edited interview from a pastor who isn't even here anymore. You assume that everything that was said in the CNN was accurate. 

[HurricaneBells]

Ha he has graced us with his prescence seemingly to just challenge those who have a different opinion to him on his precious school.... Church. School. I dont care. Welcome to the dark side Adam. Relax the trigger a bit lad, its ok to have differing opinions. The poor kid, hope that whatever happened, justice is served appropriately, i dont believe for a second an almost teenager drowned in 3 feet of water without reason. Seems like the family have a lot of support from their community thankfully . 

[Adam Case]

10 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Also, why didn't you understand not to touch a hot stove if you had moved past the toddler/preschool age? That point is still confusing me. 

You assume that I was past that toddler stage at the point of upset. I gave 2 generic examples of rules that I had to live by without understanding the 'why' behind them. Life is filled with unexplained rules for a person growing up. Don't get lost in the details. My parents had rules for me to follow, and these rules have helped to make me who I am today. While I didn't always like the rules and regulations, I will be eternally grateful for the person that it has made me become. 

[formergothardite]

7 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

You have been making assumptions this whole time based off of an experience you had 25 years ago

Good way to avoid answering the questions. LOL. I literally have no idea what this is talking about. Can you clarify?  25 years ago I was having an experience, but it had nothing to do with Fairhaven. 

You say we make assumptions, but then you don't want to answer questions and then accused me of making assumptions when I did ask for clarification.

2 minutes ago, Adam Case said:

You assume that I was past that toddler stage at the point of upset. I gave 2 generic examples of rules that I had to live by without understanding the 'why' behind them.

I did not assume, I asked about if you had moved past the toddler stage. If you were in the toddler stage developmentally there was no reason for you to understand and Fairhaven wouldn't have helped at all so that story was fairly irrelevant and I'm not sure why you brought it up.

 

[Adam Case]

6 minutes ago, HurricaneBells said:

i dont believe for a second an almost teenager drowned in 3 feet of water without reason.

It never occurs to you that accidents just happen? 

 

12 minutes ago, HurricaneBells said:

he has graced us with his prescence seemingly to just challenge those who have a different opinion to him on his precious school.... Church. School.

You are welcome to your opinion. Just remember, that is all it is. Opinion. I have lived it I have fact on my side. I would never deny ones right to express their opinion, but to see a bystander have their name smeared for merely existing, I felt it my moral obligation to say something. 

[formergothardite]

You should be happy to know that I don't blame Fairhaven for you total lack of reading comprehension. 

Do I need to go through and highlight all the times you accused me of making assumptions when I was instead asking a question? It is rather rude to accuse someone of making assumptions when they just asked for clarification. 

I agree with you that accidents do happen which is why in my first post in this thread I discussed how easy it is for drowning to happen even with adults in the pool. 

[Adam Case]

10 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Good way to avoid answering the questions. LOL. I literally have no idea what this is talking about. Can you clarify?  25 years ago I was having an experience, but it had nothing to do with Fairhaven

Human error. I got you mixed up with someone else. I guess I'm not perfect either. I mixed up a couple of threads as I am doing this all from my phone. I would like to retract my statement(s) about you making assumptions and offer my apologies. I will be more diligent in the future about making sure I know who I am taking to before making such a statement. With that said, there have been a lot of assumptions made in this discussion (not by you) and you were the unlucky one that was there when i pointed it out. Again, I apologize. 

3 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

 

You should be happy to know that I don't blame Fairhaven for you total lack of reading comprehension. 

Do I need to go through and highlight all the times you accused me of making assumptions when I was instead asking a question? It is rather rude to accuse someone of making assumptions when they just asked for clarification. 

I agree with you that accidents do happen which is why in my first post in this thread I discussed how easy it is for drowning to happen even with adults in the pool. 

 

Please note my recent apology. 

[dpndetfarm]

Aren't you getting a bit tired from all that goal post moving you've been doing @Adam Case ? You are behaving like a horses ass and I know this because I can look out my window and watch 5 others. By the way, they are far more clever and entertaining.