JinJer 27?: Wearing Black Pants in the Heat of Laredo

[SapphireSlytherin]

Just now, Rachel333 said:

Also, I notice it's pretty much only the non-white people that people complain about.

Where I live, we have a huge immigrant population - mostly refugees. We specifically chose our neighborhood because of its diversity. We rarely hear English spoken in the streets of our area, and it's lovely. We have immigrants from Somalia, Bhutan, Bosnia, Vietnam, Croatia, Syria, and other places.

I think you're probably basing your response on what the media shoves down everyone's throats, sadly.   In my 'hood, a lot of the "old timers" in the area bitch about the Balkan refugees, and they're white, so... 

[louisa05]

My American born 63 year old father-in-law only spoke Polish until he went to school as was true for all 12 of his older siblings. 

The idea that immigrants suddenly began "refusing to learn English" at some random point very recently is nonsense. It overlooks that immigrants in the 19th Century (and even 20th C) often lived in their own communities or parts of cities and spoke their own language almost exclusively. It also overlooks that learning a new language without concentrated formal instruction is very difficult. My husband's grandmother never attended school in the U.S. and never learned English fluently. She didn't "refuse"--the resources in a tiny Midwestern town simply were not there for her to learn nor was it a huge necessity as the entire community was made up of Polish speaking immigrants and their children. She learned what she did know from her children who only learned English in school. 

I would guess (and no, I don't have statistics and I'm packing for a move so I'm not going to go looking) that today's immigrants learn more English than people like my husband's grandparents did. It is likely more necessary. 

[Rachel333]

Just now, SapphireSlytherin said:

Where I live, we have a huge immigrant population - mostly refugees. We specifically chose our neighborhood because of its diversity. We rarely hear English spoken in the streets of our area, and it's lovely. We have immigrants from Somalia, Bhutan, Bosnia, Vietnam, Croatia, Syria, and other places.

I think you're probably basing your response on what the media shoves down everyone's throats, sadly.   In my 'hood, a lot of the "old timers" in the area bitch about the Balkan refugees, and they're white, so... 

No, I'm speaking from personal experience. I come from NW Arkansas where there's a huge Latino population and a decent sized Marshallese population and people say just horrible things about them. They call them "illegals" without actually knowing their immigrant status and are just generally very prejudiced against those immigrants. The Jones Center, where the Duggars have been shown to ice skate and play broomball, is a community center in Springdale, which has the highest Latino population of the area, and while homeschoolers use the center extensively every time I went I always heard one of them complain about how they don't feel safe there thanks to the "illegals" who also use the center.

It's one of the fastest growing metropolitan areas in the country and there are plenty of immigrants from other parts of the world, but I only ever heard people complain about the ones who weren't white.

[BeaSnarky]

5 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

My American born 63 year old father-in-law only spoke Polish until he went to school as was true for all 12 of his older siblings. 

The idea that immigrants suddenly began "refusing to learn English" at some random point very recently is nonsense. It overlooks that immigrants in the 19th Century (and even 20th C) often lived in their own communities or parts of cities and spoke their own language almost exclusively. It also overlooks that learning a new language without concentrated formal instruction is very difficult. My husband's grandmother never attended school in the U.S. and never learned English fluently. She didn't "refuse"--the resources in a tiny Midwestern town simply were not there for her to learn nor was it a huge necessity as the entire community was made up of Polish speaking immigrants and their children. She learned what she did know from her children who only learned English in school. 

I would guess (and no, I don't have statistics and I'm packing for a move so I'm not going to go looking) that today's immigrants learn more English than people like my husband's grandparents did. It is likely more necessary. 

My husband, who is 60, was born in Nebraska, and raised by his grandfather.  They ONLY spoke Spanish at home until my husband entered the 3rd grade.  And the reason for the change was that my husband was teased mercilessly, and my grandfather refused to have his classmates continue to call him "wet back."

[louisa05]

6 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

It's one of the fastest growing metropolitan areas in the country and there are plenty of immigrants from other parts of the world, but I only ever heard people complain about the ones who weren't white.

Two stories from the little hell hole that I worked in for ten years and Mr. 05 grew up in, at town that let Kris Kobach lead them to pass an anti-immigration ordinance that based on pure racism:

When the anti-immigration ordinance was being debated, a group of old men were in my SiL's coffeehouse loudly discussing the "immigration problem" and using derogatory words to refer to Latinos. A friend of ours finally cracked and got up and said, "Would you even be having this conversation if we were talking about people coming illegally from Canada to work here?". The old men responded with grunts and eye rolls and the loudest among them spoke on their behalf: "That's DIFFERENT and you know it!". 

At the same time, when teaching The House on Mango Street to sophomores in that town (I spearheaded that addition to the curriculum, being a glutton for punishment), on a section that is about illegal immigration, a student of mine informed the whole class of the following: "My parents said that there is a huge problem with illegal Puerto Ricans coming to the East Coast now". Several more immediately agreed that their parents had talked about the same problem. 

But none of this is about race at all. Of course not. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

12 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

I come from NW Arkansas

Ohhhh. Yeah. I know that area very well (relatives live there). Sorry you have to deal with that BS.

[Destiny]

Uhhhhh. Puerto Ricans are Americans. By definition, they can’t be either immigrants nor “illegals” on the east coast of the U.S.

(I know most everyone here probably knows this, but it makes me rage when PR people are not treated as Americans cos brown and Spanish speakers.)

[Rachel333]

I also wonder if people complaining about people speaking Spanish in TEXAS, of all places, know that Mexico used to look like this:

Texas used to BE Mexico. The border crossed them!

[DinglyDoll]

8 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

@DinglyDoll--I learned about Mama Dragons from my transgender sibling. I feel like reading stories like the Robertson family's help me on my journey to being a better sister to my sibling and being a little bit more Christian. Thank you for posting that link.

Bless you for your love and support of your sibling. We can never fail by loving someone unconditionally--without strings or judgment. The Robertson's story helped me so much as well. My son could have been Ryan Robertson--so close. The hiding, shame, and guilt that results when LGBTQ people are condemned and denied personhood by the religous bodies that are supposed to give life is so destructive.

[Four is Enough]

56 minutes ago, seraaa said:

Could it be that policy just decided to be more accommodating? I imagine that there will always have been people with various levels of English proficiency, but now corporations/the law aim to be more inclusive 

snipped for brevity. This related to the translator in a medical office issue. DH is required to have a "non family" translator for any client who shows up to the door. I believe this is entirely HIPPAA related, and I applaud it, because no english speaking grandchild should be translating grandma's health issues for the doctor. However, due to the number and variety of populations who need translation, care has slowed down definitely in this market. One help has been the use of translators via telephone. They do not have to attend the visit with the client.

54 minutes ago, amandaaries said:

It's interesting that we just had a thread drift about second language acquisition and maintenance elsewhere, then run into this kind of very pro-English-only stance elsewhere.  It's the kind of attitude that keeps Americans so monolingual (as a whole).  We still have laws (not based in research, but in politics) that heavily favor English-only in schools, which means that most children of immigrants lose a lot of their native language (which isn't beneficial to them, nor to our globe).

 This new category is borne of our strange policies favoring one language over any other, and it leads to families losing languages and the ability to connect with their family elsewhere.

The name issue is complicated.  Many people and cultures favor family names. Should that change as the family relocates?  

Regarding translators as law, I think we can all agree that we have generally tried to move forward as a society and do better when we know better. How can you tell a doctor about your pain or problems if you can't talk? Do we want people suffering medically due to a lack of communication? 

I also know a woman born in Mexico, but now married to a Mexican-American. They have three children; Spanish and English are spoken in the home.  Their garage had a Mexican flag, and their youngest son, a kindergartner, asked why.  He angrily told his mother that they were NOT Mexican; the flag was unnecessary. They were AMERICAN. 

TL;DR: Immigrants are still striving to assimilate, and translators are a sign of positive change in our always-evolving society.

ETA: Do you feel your husband benefited at all by losing Polish? 

 

I'm not sure how a country such as the US, which does have an incredible diversity in language, could be anything but monolingual. That's not to say that I don't favor another language to be taught, but I wouldn't want to be the school district that chooses WHICH language the children learn. It would be impossible to teach them all, and it would benefit children to learn one language well rather than many language words poorly. I would edit this to add that I believe courts and business should be conducted in English, but all attempts to translate should be made, especially in the lawmaking/court/public service sector.

Yes, families have lost the ability to communicate with the remaining family. This is a sorry issue.

The names? Both immigration authorities, who couldn't or wouldn't learn to understand names or spell them correctly, and immigrants, who for what ever reason changed their names, have influenced the changing of names in America. Is it because our movie stars changed their pedestrian names to something more glamorous? Is it because someone was hiding from an oppressive regime in the old country? Is it because they wanted to be "more american" from the outset?

The mother and family of the Mexican American child definitely need to teach him of his rich heritage.. he can claim both. That's what all this Polish American Ukrainian American Mexican American German American African American thing IS!

I know my husband's entire sibling group regret that they didn't learn Polish. They also didn't  learn a lot of Polish folklore, or other things, They did feel the loss, although their (Catholic) school did have a Polish background. So only their name is Polish..

45 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

Even if immigrants don't learn English, that's a "problem" that resolves itself within a generation anyway. I have known many immigrants and have never met a single child of immigrants who grew up in the US and didn't speak English perfectly.

Also, I notice it's pretty much only the non-white people that people complain about. People don't often complain about the Amish continuing to speak German, for example.

The difference between the Amish and other other language speaking communities is that the Amish will speak English to the English... if they choose to communicate. 

[Rachel333]

14 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Ohhhh. Yeah. I know that area very well (relatives live there). Sorry you have to deal with that BS.

Thanks. It's a lovely place in many respects (I don't actually live there anymore and I rather miss it) and it was a great place to grow up, but it does have its problems.

[shock928]

I grew up near Laredo, TX. My parents are farmers. We knew some Spanish although not fluent, we never were angry or annoyed about Spanish being spoken unless it was clearly being directed ABOUT us.  (I know all the curse words.) Lol.

That being said, some people who are angry about illegal immigrants are racist. And some people angry about illegal immigrants are angry because their lives are directly negatively impacted. My parents are farmers 20 miles from the border. Many Mexican American friends who are also farmers in the area are also all impacted by illegal immigrants cutting down fences, leaving gates open and cows escaping, lots of damage is done to fences, so much so my parents have been cost thousands of dollars to repair fences that have been torn down and trampled. Lots of farmers in the area have to pay their own damages, and lose their farm because it's so much and so common. Literally every week sometimes in the fall/winter months. So they are angry and disheartened about it, and want something to be done to improve the situation.

I believe all people are God's people. But I can also see why people might be angry how it is or isn't being handled by their country. I have no answers for this. I have no idea what I would do if I was in politics. Just thought my viewpoint being from close to Laredo would give another perspective.

[Rachel333]

1 minute ago, Four is Enough said:

The difference between the Amish and other other language speaking commuities is that the Amish will speak English to the English... if they choose to communicate. 

Right, but people will complain about immigrants speaking Spanish at all, even if those immigrants can also speak English.

[Sherresed]

I don't know if anyone else talked  about this but I saw something on Youtbe about Jessa and Jinger and their husbands being at a wedding recently any ideas on who's wedding it was?

[Four is Enough]

1 minute ago, Rachel333 said:

Right, but people will complain about immigrants speaking Spanish at all, even if those immigrants can also speak English.

I guess I've never noticed. If I had a second language, and could have a sidebar with my family if needed in the second language, for sure I'd do it even if it pissed people off. Sometimes, you just want private language with someone, KWIM? I don't see it as any different than me repeating what the doctor has said to my hard of hearing father..

Now if, as someone has said, you know they're talking about you, I can see where it might piss you off.. but I've muttered about other people in English.. and that's just as bad.

[SapphireSlytherin]

2 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

<snip> If I had a second language, and could have a sidebar with my family if needed in the second language, for sure I'd do it even if it pissed people off. Sometimes, you just want private language with someone, KWIM? <snip>

My in-laws do this all.the.time. Part of the reason we don't visit them and why they're not welcome in our home.

[Nikedagain?]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

You're an amazingly rare specimen if literally ALL of your ancestors have been in North America since at least 1712, by the way. That's extremely unusual, bordering on impossible!

THISSS

[apandaaries]

1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

<snip snip, here and there>

I'm not sure how a country such as the US, which does have an incredible diversity in language, could be anything but monolingual.That's not to say that I don't favor another language to be taught, but I wouldn't want to be the school district that chooses WHICH language the children learn. It would be impossible to teach them all, and it would benefit children to learn one language well rather than many language words poorly. I would edit this to add that I believe courts and business should be conducted in English, but all attempts to translate should be made, especially in the lawmaking/court/public service sector.

The names? Both immigration authorities, who couldn't or wouldn't learn to understand names or spell them correctly, and immigrants, who for what ever reason changed their names, have influenced the changing of names in America. Is it because our movie stars changed their pedestrian names to something more glamorous? Is it because someone was hiding from an oppressive regime in the old country? Is it because they wanted to be "more american" from the outset?

The mother and family of the Mexican American child definitely need to teach him of his rich heritage.. he can claim both. That's what all this Polish American Ukrainian American Mexican American German American African American thing IS!

 

The point about the Mexican-American family is that the very young child, age 5, has already internalized that much racism from his surrounding, English-speaking, white-American-dominant culture...never mind that California and other states have a long relationship with Mexico (check out @Rachel333's awesome and accurate map) and other countries. For California, agriculture has almost always heavily relied on foreign workers.  At one point, it was Chinese men, whose presence stoked immigrant fears and led to the Chinese Exclusion Act.  Now many focus their anger and ire at "Mexicans" (who often come from other parts of Central or South America as well), and try to legislate them out of the country (a tactic which has never shown much success, but it does amplify fear and anger). That prejudice can and does reach even the smallest, most vulnerable members of our society, telling them they are wrong due their birth, basically. How shitty is that?

I'm not sure I'm following your line of thought on the names. especially about our media changing names to be flashier.  My point was that many people select names for their children based on their family or cultural heritage.  If we can celebrate being Polish-American, can't we use a Polish-based name? If not, why not? People can learn to pronounce new names, and it's beneficial to continue to learn about others as we get older. So why do we need to Anglicize names?

The Munoz piece discusses the complexities of changing names to accommodate the dominant culture, and the heartbreak and loss that accompanies such alterations.   We certainly have a tradition of changing names at Ellis Island, but we also know more now about how that wasn't especially beneficial for anyone (unless one was fleeing the Mafia or other persecution, I suppose).But is "Johansson" that much more difficult than "Johnson"? Why would we need to force people to Anglicize their names?

Regarding the diversity of the nation and its need to be "anything but monolingual," I wonder about that. Hawaii's official languages are Hawaiian and English; New Mexico's official languages are Spanish and English.  Puerto Rico and the Samoan Islands use English and other languages.

To contrast it with another country, I have an expat friend who landed in Canada as a teacher.  He works in an elementary school and they embrace other languages there. He says that Canada understands that it relies on immigrants for its future (as does the US, but we don't like to talk about that as much) and they work to support the family's connection to its native language. They understand that a [national]-Canadian will want to retain ties to that original nation and culture. Instead of forcing them to choose a language and culture, they get both. So while we in the US have "English-only" policies that prevent teachers from using another language in class to help students, in Canada, he can speak with his students in Spanish or Korean, and it's fine. They can take pride in being connected to somewhere else, having family elsewhere, and also being Canadian and building a new home there. He's in Toronto, so their instruction is in English, but they don't have to feel shamed by their home language.  (And none of this even gets into how Canada is a French & English speaking country, according to their laws -- yet still they function. Switzerland also functions in a multilingual fashion.)

Honestly, the USA has never been a monolingual nation, and if you watch American Tongues, you'll see that even our "English" has tremendous variations. Immigrant communities have existed for a long time (and before that, different tribes had different languages) and still do, because the country continues to grow and change. Try as I might, however, I cannot think of one instance where a child born to immigrants and raised here has failed to learn English -- but they can and do learn about prejudice and unreasonable, biased hatred.

[SapphireSlytherin]

18 minutes ago, Nikedagain? said:

THISSS

LOL.  You don't have to believe me. Just because your reality doesn't allow you to believe it, doesn't mean it's not true.

But again - who even really cares, besides me? Why in the fuck would I make that up? My family is documented back to the 1300s on all lines, thanks to a cousin who made it his life's mission to trace our heritage. My "home" area of the USA has many families who can easily prove lineage to the 18th century. It's not "rare" among my friends at all.

 

 

[Palimpsest]

13 hours ago, calimojo said:

I am wondering how JB feels about this?  They were tight with Santorum a few years back.  And I have never really heard JB outright be anti-catholic. 

No?  The whole Duggar family was well known to be anti-catholic long before Jeremy, Ben and Derrick appeared spouting off their views.  It was not just the Gothard connection but also the long-term association with SOS Ministries that did them in.  Jim Bob mis-spoke once too often on those family mission trips.

Jim Bob and Michelle were officially dis-invited from speaking at a huge Canadian conference not so long ago over this very issue.

It is true that, unlike his sons-in-law, Jim Bob Duggar hasn't indulged in many obvious anti-Catholic rants in public.  He was a politician, after all, and was careful about his brand.  Such as it is.

I believe JB went on record as saying that he supported Santorum for his Family Values in spite of his being Catholic.  Josh certainly said exactly that.  The Duggars also deserted Santorum for Huckabee licketty-split as soon as Huckabee declared.

Of course, Santorum officially repudiated Duggar support once the molestation charges were made public too.

[Greendoor]

I go back to 1566 on one side for North America.  

Not sure that's really something to brag on consider the short end of the stick my immigrant forbearers handed to the residents.

 

 

[Jinder Roles]

@SapphireSlytherin Honest question: why do you live in a diverse neighborhood with a high population of refugees if you believe every "illegal" (ugh, I hate that term") should be sent back? 

I see your reasoning about how you have followed immigration laws but the system is flawed. You're a white (I'm assuming) woman from arguably the most powerful country in the world. You have privileges most of the immigrants you mentioned don't have. And due to globalization, neo-colonialism and other issues; a lot of these "illegals" come because they have no other viable options. And quite often, it's the result of powerful countries (usually Western European and the US) screwing with other less developed regions that trigger a mass exodus.

[Destiny]

Continued here: