Dillards 32: To VBAC or not to VBAC

[NakedKnees]

Congratulations to the Dillards for their healthy baby and mom! It sounds like overall, things are fine, although I am interested in more details arising (should Jill want to share them. As far as her births go, she might be shying away from the public eye over time).

I've had a few other thoughts on these two...

1) I am starting to suspect that abstinence may be what they are successfully using to space pregnancies post C-section, and if either or both of them are fairly sexual people, that's gotta be a huge challenge, especially if you really only got to experience a short period of sexuality. That said, I don't really understand how abstinence ISN'T birth control in their situation.

I know it sometimes grosses people out to think about fundie sex lives, but honestly, it just crossed my mind recently and could contribute to them both looking a bit worse for wear the past few years.

2) Is there still no evidence that these two had any unsupervised conversations prior to marriage? I can't get it out of my head how unfair that is, if so. Jessa got that, I suspect Jinger got that, and even Josh and Joy met their spouses in relatively down-to-earth, non-arranged ways. I think Jill really got the short end of the courtship stick. 

[NanisBlessing]

On 7.7.2017 at 4:12 AM, SapphireSlytherin said:

I had an unmedicated labor/delivery per the US Army's (then) guidelines. It was beyond horrific. I was begging for relief and literally out of my mind from the pain. I had zero control of the situation.

Same here...the Army Hospital made me go through 38 hours of hard labor, no medication...I thought I was going to die...most horrific experience of my life ! 

[VelociRapture]

@seasonsoflifeI agree for the most part. I will say that a healthy baby AND a healthy mother are the best outcome though. I'm sure you meant that, but the way you worded a certain part made it sound like only a healthy baby counts.  

I'm going to slightly disagree on Samuel's first photo though. The Dills may have announced his birth when and how they did because they didn't want anyone else spilling the beans accidentally (like how Jessica Seewald did for Spurgeon's birth.) We have no clue what happened during or after his birth - for all we know, this was the best or only shot of the baby they were able to get at that point. But having already announced, they may have felt like they had to share a photo so people could see the baby is fine. That or maybe Derick was just in full-on proud dad mode and wanted to show his son off, which I think can be forgiven this time.

As @SassyPantsand others mentioned, Samuel appears to be receiving more than standard care... however, he also appears to be in relatively good condition. It appears they were in the OR when that was taken, so it's likely a Nurse took the photo for them (one of my nurses did that for us) and I seriously doubt they would have taken taken the time to snap a photo if Samuel was in actual medical distress.

[SassyPants]

9 hours ago, Million Children For Jesus said:

 

Thank you for this. I have the RH factor. My third and fourth had jaundice, and no one ever bothered to mention that it may have been related to the RH factor. It would seem kind of important to mention, especially if the effects of RH worsen with each subsequent pregnancy, and as far as my doctor knew, I was still planning on future pregnancies. 

There are several different things that can cause jaundice (hyperbilirubinemia) in a newborn, by drawing blood doctors can determine the likely cause. RH factor incompatibility is just one of the reasons, and not the most likely reason that a baby gets jaundice.

[SilverBeach]

19 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

40 hour labor is criminal.

I did 36, finally delivered vaginally, and yes I agree with you. As long as the baby was doing OK, they just didn't care about me, haha! It's good that the baby shows no sign of microcephaly.

[Tangy Bee]

4 hours ago, xlurker said:

Me too!  First was 9 pounds 38.5 weeks.  Second 10 pounds 41.5 weeks.  Both were healthy, both were easy hospital deliveries. By easy I mean no drugs (I am not a hero, just didn't have a lot of pain) and I was up and walking within a half hour of having them.  No GD. Number 2 was "sunny side up", so not one, but TWO episiotomies!  The healing from that was the worst!  Aside from that I am a baby making machine!

 

 

 

Dang girl! You kicked ass. Bet you had to buy Tucks in bulk. Those things are life savers. It's amazing a butt can heal after all that.

[Henk12]

15 hours ago, ILoveJellybeans said:

Wow Jill has big babies  

Apparently they tend to get bigger each time, if she ends up like Michelle she could be giving birth to toddlers.

There's hope the next one won't be so big. My oldest was 7 lbs 8 oz, my middle was 11 lbs 9 oz and then my third was 7 lbs 15 oz. I don't know how the middle kid was so big because I didn't have gestational diabetes. But I was afraid my third would be a 12 pounder but was pleasantly surprised. I'm hope Jill's babies stay under 10 pounds. I wonder if bigger babies put you at a higher risk of having your csection scar tissue rupture? 

[JoyJoy]

18 minutes ago, NakedKnees said:

 

 

2) Is there still no evidence that these two had any unsupervised conversations prior to marriage? I can't get it out of my head how unfair that is, if so. Jessa got that, I suspect Jinger got that, and even Josh and Joy met their spouses in relatively down-to-earth, non-arranged ways. I think Jill really got the short end of the courtship stick. 

I remember reading that they met at a Christmas party. I also remember something about Cathy knowing Michelle? Jill and Derick's courtship story is posted somewhere. I could probably find it here.

[BadMammaJana]

@PennySycamoreI actually learned that from King of the Hill. Peggy was allowed to write for the county newspaper so they gave her an advice column to write, but mostly for cleaning. Peggy knew nothing about cleaning secrets and came up with that magic concoction to publish in the paper. They had to collect all the newspapers and burn them because, thankfully, Hank knew that was a deadly combo. He said it made mustard gas. I dunno if it really does, but, its deadly either way.

[seasonsoflife]

7 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

@seasonsoflifeI agree for the most part. I will say that a healthy baby AND a healthy mother are the best outcome though. I'm sure you meant that, but the way you worded a certain part made it sound like only a healthy baby counts.  

I'm going to slightly disagree on Samuel's first photo though. The Dills may have announced his birth when and how they did because they didn't want anyone else spilling the beans accidentally (like how Jessica Seewald did for Spurgeon's birth.) We have no clue what happened during or after his birth - for all we know, this was the best or only shot of the baby they were able to get at that point. But having already announced, they may have felt like they had to share a photo so people could see the baby is fine. That or maybe Derick was just in full-on proud dad mode and wanted to show his son off, which I think can be forgiven this time.

As @SassyPantsand others mentioned, Samuel appears to be receiving more than standard care... however, he also appears to be in relatively good condition. It appears they were in the OR when that was taken, so it's likely a Nurse took the photo for them (one of my nurses did that for us) and I seriously doubt they would have taken taken the time to snap a photo if Samuel was in actual medical distress.

I am, of course, not implying that the health of the mother is not as important. What I take issue with is the fact that babies cannot make the decisions, their wellbeing is in the hand of others. So I get upset when people get so angry or disappointed about c-sections when that puts the child at risk. I would expect good medical professionals to asses the possible outcome for both mom AND baby and make decisions based on that.

I can somewhat understand what you mean regarding the picture, but since I basically disagree with every decision this family has made regarding their children since day one, it is hard to cut them some slack. Specially Derick...how in the world, Derick? You had so much potential,, and now you are just...ugh...the worse. Also, and this is just my personal stance, I don´t like the oversharing of intimate moments on social media. And if he had to (which he obviously had to, cause we are talking about the Duggars here) I´d wish he would have waited a little, got him wrapped and calm and then post a picture of that.

I really, really hope I am being judgmental (well...because Derick is an a**hole...did I mention that already?...) and that they went to the hospital at the appropriate time and this was not another Izzie situation. (But again, I hope the Duggars prove me wrong about EVERYTHING because I have a very low opinion of them and zero expectations...so proving me wrong could only mean good things!)

[coffeebean7]

2 hours ago, Elvis Presby said:

How can you possibly state this as fact?  I assume 2 seconds is hyperbole, but emergency c-sections are just that; an emergency.  I only had 7 minutes from the time I was told my baby's heart was slow and getting slower each moment until I was being cut open.  Had I not already had an epidural I would have been given general anesthesia.  I think we all can agree that a scenario like that would have been less than ideal.  

I had a crash c section too, except I had to have general anesthesia because my epidural wasn't totally working. There's a difference between emergency/unplanned c sections, and emergency/crash c sections where baby has to come out in minutes. Mine was the latter (crash section due to fetal distress, turned out he had a true knot in his cord).  

I do feel for Jill, as I would fee for anyone who obviously wanted a VBAC and didn't get one. I'm about to give birth in a few weeks and am trying for a VBAC myself. At least baby Samuel seems healthy. 

Did they ever say what Jill's actual due date was? I saw on wikipedia at one point that it was July 2nd but they took that down pretty quickly. 

[VelociRapture]

4 minutes ago, JoyJoy said:

I remember reading that they met at a Christmas party. I also remember something about Cathy knowing Michelle? Jill and Derick's courtship story is posted somewhere. I could probably find it here.

As far as I remember -

Derick showed up with carolers around Christmas 2011. He asked Boob to be prayer partners sometime after that while he was in Nepal. Boob thought the two might hit it off and had Jill listen in on conversations without Derick knowing. They spoke briefly once in spring 2013 via speakerphone or Skype (with Boob in the room.) They didn't speak again until that August when they started communicating regularly. Trip to Nepal and official courtship occurred between Erin Paine's wedding (November 2) and Thanksgiving (November 28.) Derick returned to the states early 2014, engagement was March 29th, and married June 21.

I would guess they likely had some opportunities for private conversations. Though that may be one of those "standards" they let the courting couple choose for themselves. If so, maybe Jill just didn't feel comfortable not including her family for some reason. Or maybe her parents have loosened up the tiniest bit with other courtships because, you know, the sinful front hug the Dills shared at the airport once clearly didn't lead them to eternal damnation. 

@seasonsoflifeI understand and I agree. I would hope any expectant parent would ultimately choose safety over personal preferences in a dangerous situation. 

And I also get just not wanting to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's not like they've really done anything to foster the idea that they're responsible human beings.

[SassyPants]

I do not like that they say everyone is healthy. From the photo (I've only seen the one where the baby is diapered), Samuel is getting more comprehensive care and we have not seen Jill. I hope both Samuel and Jill truly are healthy and OK.

I think it's interesting that Michelle's babies were all over the place in terms of size, and that many on FJ have had babies with similar weight differences, despite having term or very near term deliveries. My kids were 7-5oz and 7-6oz. All of the nephews on my side were between 7.0 and 8 lbs. Same with my hub's nieces and nephews save the 28 weeker, who weighed a whooping 3.9 lbs at birth!

[seasonsoflife]

Completely off topic but....

If anyone likes screaming at screens like I do like an old crazy person, you should watch this reality show, "Misbehaving moms to be", on YouTube. Now THAT is some serious motherly negligence (specially if you are TTC like I am and taking your folic acid and your metformin and trying to do things right while these women are acting like horrible, horrible parents). I swear one of them said "well, you pee on a stick, and it turns blue, and you are expected to stop drinking and smoking....how is that fair?"

Why I am subjecting myself to this on a cold rainy Saturday morning???!!!

[ItsMeY'all]

1 hour ago, MoonFace said:

Try a combo of color fast bleach and ammonia. 

This is what has worked great for me. Well this or using the steam cycle on a newer washer. Actually found the "recipe" inside the lid of one of my old top loaders where it had temperature and washing suggestion. I use powerder clorox 2 but have used other brands of chlorine free  bleach alternatives with just as much success, but didn't like their scents as much. But like ithers have said, make sure it isn't the stinky traditional chlorine bleach or you will be in trouble, as in possibly dead! 

[Shadoewolf]

Somebody at Pickles said this pic likely 'wasn't' taken in the OR, but awhile after his birth, as Samuel is already cleaned up completely and his cord was yellowing. Don't know how accurate that is?  But if Dwreck is still in surgical garb that long after, I really hope Jill is ok! Really hope " doing well" isn't more like doing as well as can be expected at this point. 

The silence on this is kinda strange, being the Duggars. Almost 24 hours later and no updates, new photos, requests for prayers, nothing? 

[VelociRapture]

12 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I do not like that they say everyone is healthy. From the photo (I've only seen the one where the baby is diapered), Samuel is getting more comprehensive care and we have not seen Jill. I hope both Samuel and Jill truly are healthy and OK.

Derick stated they were doing "well", not that they were "healthy." Maybe not a huge difference, but to me it implies they're doing ok under whatever circumstances there are. That's the term husband and I chose to use when announcing our preemie's birth and we picked it for that reason.

[Fjrocks]

    Today is the perfect example of why fundamentalism is so dangerous for women.  Jill should be resting, snuggling her baby and celebrating; instead all because of a completely routine medical procedure she is probably dealing  with dark thoughts.

1. Not having the number of babies she genuinely wants or at least thinks she wants.   Failure in her divine purpose.

2.  With two botched deliveries (partly her fault,  partly not), one of the only fundie approved careers she could explore is dead in the water.    Doors closing in her face.

3.  With fewer births/pregnancies in her future and a small family size, the reasons to return stateside are dwindling.   Several kids would have probably brought them home permanently, two does not.  Indefinite isolation.

Dear Jill,  Let me share with you the good news of feminism.  You can be a mother, a wife, be happy, have hobbies,  a career, education, a voice in your marriage and yes, even a relationship with Jesus.   The world is bright.   Embrace it. 

[ItsMeY'all]

Not to say Jill isn't upset about not getting her VBAC, but questioning how much of it is that she actually wanted to experience a vaginal birth versus the implications on her future family size. I don't think sections would be nearly as upsetting to a member of this cult if it were totally safe to have 20, all a year apart, no risk aside from the normal stuff.  There would still no doubt be some let down or even more, but the family size thing has to sting. Whether you are hoping for one or ten (because I refuse to believe anyone in sound mental health wants twenty) it is upsetting to have your dreams for the future dashed. 

OR for all we know Jill could secretly be relieved because she hates being pregnant or even being a mother. 

My husband was just asking if she could end up going through a round or two of treatment to get like 15- 20 eggs (maybe 10 good embryos each try if she is fertile, 6 or so making it to a viable baby each try) and use gestational carriers to up her family size. I told him that wasn't their view of leaving it up to God but he pointed out that, as we learned the hard way, just because you "implant" the embryos doesn't mean they will even "stick" let alone grow into a healthy, viable, baby. That is pretty much what we told our family that didn't approve of our fertility interventions...they were actually cool with things when we pointed this out. People will stretch their beliefs to make things work when something is wanted badly enough.

[singsingsing]

Maybe I'm projecting here based on my own experience and personality... but I so wish that Derick and Jill would just stay in the U.S. at this point. They tried the missionary thing for a while. They gave it a really good shot (okay, bear with me, I'm putting myself in the shoes of a fellow fundie/fundie-lite here). They now have a pre-schooler and a newborn. They've both had health issues. Derick has a whole bunch of allergies. Jill seems to have high anxiety (not diagnosing her with anything - I'm saying she seems to have an anxious personality). She now has a track record of two very long, difficult labours, and what appears to be a second emergency c-section.

They could move back to Arkansas, take advantage of nearby reliable medical care, take advantage of nearby family support systems. Cathy could enjoy spending time with her son and grandsons. Jill could be a doula or something on the side. Derick could get a job as an accountant again. They could still go on short term mission trips. Maybe even go on longer trips once the kids get older. They could find ministry opportunities close to home and have a much greater impact there than they ever could preaching one day a week and struggling with Spanish lessons in Central America.

Derick shouldn't have married a quiverfull fundie woman if he wanted to live a life of freedom and adventure. Tough luck, buddy, you made your bed, now lie in it. You wanted this. Your wife and your kids are now your #1 priority. Remember that part in the Bible where husbands are instructed to love their wives as Christ loves the church and to lay down their lives for them? Jill has done her part by submitting to you as her headship, now it's time for you to do your part by laying down your selfish personal desires and putting the needs of your family first.

[SapphireSlytherin]

3 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

but I so wish that Derick and Jill would just stay in the U.S. at this point. They tried the missionary thing for a while.

Assuming you mean that Central America, in the situation they were in (scary/dangerous), should be off-limits? There are plenty of places they could go outside the US where it's safer, and where they could still be "missionaries." (Quotes on purpose because I don't think converting ebil Catholics to their version of christianity counts as missionary work.)

As for Jill, looking back over her photos for the past few years - and the videos on TLC... She seems to be simpering all the damn time. I feel like she wants more attention than she gets, and when she is around Dwreck she's especially simperish (I know it's not a word) as she big-eyes (using that as a verb) at him. 

[Stormy]

This might be presumptuous, but I can't help but wonder if the c-section could have been prevented. I myself was an emergency c-section after it was determined I was "too big" (9lbs., 13 oz.) to come out. For reference, my parents got adequate pre-natal care and had gone to the hospital as soon as my mom began to feel contractions. I was not overdue (my mom attests I was right on schedule) and needing the whole procedure came as a shock to everyone. When my mom got pregnant with my younger brother, they took measures to try and prevent a repeat c/s and ultimately induced my mom about three weeks before her due date. He was delivered via v-bac and was over eight pounds with an apgar score of 9 (whereas mine was 5).

I understand, though, that there are a variety of reasons for needing c-sections that can't easily be avoided. I'm on board with the assumption that Jill went way overdue (again) and attempted a homebirth before being rushed to the hospital at the last second. Again, though, we're not sure what exactly happened yet and this is pure speculation.

[Coconut Flan]

Carry on here: