Old Fashioned: A Creepy Christian RomCom/Drama

[formergothardite]

I'm pretty sure it was here that I read that respect is treating people how THEY want to be treated, not how you think they would want to be treated and that has always stuck with me because I had never thought of it that way. 

The problem with movies like this is that it presents controlling behavior by men as something women should want and women who don't want it are not "good" women. The reason Amber is seen as a "good" woman is because she doesn't really assert herself and gives into Clay's "my rules, my way" attitude. The stripper didn't. She stood up to him and because of that,  becomes like @BackseatMom says, a non-person. Someone who doesn't need to be respected, someone Clay doesn't have to think about how he hurt. Clay got what he wanted and that is all that matters in this movie. 

@L1o2u3, do you understand a bit more how the message of this movie is actually demeaning towards women and presents controlling, borderline abusive behavior as romantic(something both Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey do)? 

ETA: and while it is probably just crappy writing, one thing that leaps out is that he makes this HUGE deal that she has to stand outside because he has made a promise not to be alone with any woman who isn't his wife, but he ditches this promise the second she agrees to his way and his rules and they go for long drives all alone. What happened to "you have to stand out in the cold because I can't be alone with you"? 

And @Beermeet, making a joke like that after someone just tells you about being abused shows literally no respect or even basic human decency. 

[Beermeet]

1 hour ago, L1o2u3 said:

I agree that there are a few weird things in the movie. For example when they talk about how her ex-boyfriend hit her because she was wearing nail polish and Clay is like "well, but clear one is okay". But I think that was supposed to be funny. 

That part bugged me the most.  Clay seemed to understand not her feelings but her abusive ex's.  He wasn't appalled, upset that her ex physically hurt her or comfoting her, whatever a real nice man would do while being told that by the woman he is falling for.

Just a creepy joke.  So gross.

[Edhelfin]

2 hours ago, L1o2u3 said:

I agree that there are a few weird things in the movie. For example when they talk about how her ex-boyfriend hit her because she was wearing nail polish and Clay is like "well, but clear one is okay". But I think that was supposed to be funny. I don't think that Clay is worse than Edward Cullen or Christian Grey. 

Those two men are stalkers and obsessed, controlling abusers. It is not like these are the only choices of men out there.

[nickelodeon]

We're talking about how this Mike Pence-wannabe with a Justin Bieber haircut is a creep, but failing to mention the scene where he's like "no girlfriend of mine will have little experience with childcare! >:^(" and forces her to babysit someone's kid so she can be worthy of his godly sperm? Nnnnnnnope.

[L1o2u3]

I think that the stripper should not have been hired in the first place without making sure that the groom and his fiancée are okay with it. The way I understood it, Chuck hired her as a surprise and David (the husband to be) seemed to be unsure of what to make of this and also a bit uncomfortable. I would never hire a stripper for a friend without making sure that they actually want a stripper. 

I can of course understand that she didn't like losing a job for the night. 

[formergothardite]

But it really wasn't Clay's place to kick her out. And all while he goes on about respecting women while not showing one iota of respect for the stripper. @L1o2u3, do you see at all why this "romance" movie teaches a horrible lesson about respect and love? The message in this is just as bad as the message in Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey. Even Christian Grey compromised a bit and wasn't totally my way, my rules. 

@Nickelodeon, that part is just so crazy! She isn't just baby sitting, he sits their forcing her to cut up food for a child while he watches.  The whole thing is just awful. 

It is a big sign that churches are not doing their job when not only does this movie not repulse Christians, so many seem to think it is a good romance story. I know at some points in my life I  would have watched it and not seen all the red flags because I had been trained to view men controlling women as normal. 

 

[nokidsmom]

15 hours ago, EowynW said:

Haha eating was more important to us than sex on our wedding night. 

I will admit to the same.   Mr. No and I were starved when we left our wedding, we didn't get a chance to eat much during the reception so first thing we did was head out to a restaurant we frequented while dating. 

On a more serious note, the controlling behaviour in this movie just screams out at me.  If any guy who was with me says "my rules, my way" I would have run screaming.

I agree with @formergothardite that respect is for all women, not just the ones who conform to one's social/moral code.

[L1o2u3]

Yeah, I wouldn't want something like that in real life. But I still enjoyed watching it, as I did enjoy Twilight (at least the books, except for the fourth one) and I even had some fun with 50 Shades even though I didn't think it was romantic or erotic. And I didn't understand it as a life manual (I never do that with movies or fiction books). And I hope people don't see this as a "how to do courtship", just as people shouldn't use 50 Shades as a "how to do BDSM". 

[Beermeet]

I'm not pleased at all with Clays love interest.  Perpetual victim.  Silly girl breaking things for attention.  F this movie!

[Marshmallow World]

@infooverload thank you so much for mentioning that podcast! It's everything I wanted it to be and more!

[formergothardite]

 

6 minutes ago, L1o2u3 said:

And I hope people don't see this as a "how to do courtship", just as people shouldn't use 50 Shades as a "how to do BDSM". 

The problem is that if you read the comments on various articles about it, Christians do seem to be embracing it as an example of an old fashioned, good, wholesome Christian romance where the man respects the woman. It is like no one who likes it seems to notice that this movie has no good lesson in it and isn't even showing respect for women. If people were like "yeah the guy is a creep, the woman needs therapy, the message is awful, but it is a fun movie to watch." it would be a bit different. But no, people are defending this as having a moral, Christian message and that not having more movies like this is what is wrong with society. 

I enjoyed Twilight in an "OMG this is so terrible but I can't put it down" sort of way. I read the entire series in less than three days and then called my sister to ask WTF had happened at the end!  I couldn't get into the movies.  Old Fashioned really is the Christian version of Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey.

The guy who stars is the guy who wrote it, right? I wonder if he is that creepy in real life or if he just made the movie in hopes of making money off Christians who will embrace any crappy movie that is advertised as being Christian. 

[pook]

Wow!  I had trouble even watching, more like skimming, the snark youtube video and to be honest couldn't even get through it b/c it triggered me as far as some past abusive and controlling relationships.  I'm actually a little shaky right now TBH.  I thank my lucky stars for my gentle, equal and loving partner of today who also grounds me.

[L1o2u3]

He wrote it, he played the main character and he directed it, I think.

There actually is a devotional available, called "The Old Fashioned Way" so people can learn more about courtship and "old fashioned love". I read it and thought it was okay. Better than Joshua Harris' books (but that isn't hard). Of course the intention was to have the reader think about courtship, but many chapters were more about general things like "what do you want a relationship to be" and "what boundaries do you have" and "what d you like about today's dating scene" and stuff like that. I could have a look at it again and share a few quotations, if anybody is interested in it  And no, it didn't brainwash me  I have no intent to start a courtship or wait until marriage.

 

Edit: the movie also has a facebook page where they share links about courtship and memes and stuff.  Some of it might be snark-worthy  

[formergothardite]

21 minutes ago, L1o2u3 said:

There actually is a devotional available, called "The Old Fashioned Way" so people can learn more about courtship and "old fashioned love".

Wow, that makes it all worse. Seriously, there is something wrong with Christianity today when this movie inspires a devotional where they don't discuss that the movie was an example of an abusive, disfunctional relationship. It isn't just seen as a fun movie, it really is seen as trying to teach a lesson, and that lesson is that controlling men are romantic. 

From reading parts of the devotional it is pretty terrible too. It admits that the movie was trying to show a message, but doesn't seem to get that the message is actually how not to treat other people. 

ETA: Why, in your opinion, is this movie embraced as an example of a healthy relationship instead of being shown as a romcom with a screwed up relationship that would be awful in real life. 

[Cleopatra7]

27 minutes ago, L1o2u3 said:

 

There actually is a devotional available, called "The Old Fashioned Way" so people can learn more about courtship and "old fashioned love". I read it and thought it was okay. Better than Joshua Harris' books (but that isn't hard). 

War Room and Fireproof also had devotional materials, so I wonder if this is where the real money in Christian movies comes from; market the movie heavily to churches and convince them to start classes based on the "lessons" learned in the movie, which forces everyone to not only see the movie but buy the related books as well.

[L1o2u3]

Maybe. There was also a devotional for I'm not ashamed (the movie about Columbine victim Rachel Scott). But Old Fashioned also was released in Brazil and Germany and it's coming to the cinemas in Poland. The novelization was also translated to German and maybe a few other languages as well. The soundtrack was released in Germany, too. So I guess it was quite successfull for a Christian movie because we usually only get the bestselling stuff over here because almost nobody buys Christian stuff  

[L1o2u3]

What I also found interesting was that this version of courtship differed from others. After watching the movie, I researched to find out if anybody actually did that in real life and most stuff I found was about the Duggar style courtship: SAHDs, barely adults, the couple is never ever alone and Daddy is watching over everything and needs to approve every single side hug. And they mostly liked Joshua Harris' books and When God Writes Your Love Story from Eric and Leslie Ludy and stuff like that. 

In contrast, the characters in Old Fashioned are already in their late twenties/mid-thirties, they both went to evil college (and Amber resumes her college education at the end of the movie), they had sex and past relationship, Amber was already married once and they go out on dates without chaperones. And that is also the main audience of the movie: 30, 35, 40, some divorced, already experience with love and relationships. 

Maybe that movie was made to introduce the concept of courtship to another age group, I don't know.  

[Coy Koi]

1 hour ago, L1o2u3 said:

Maybe that movie was made to introduce the concept of courtship to another age group, I don't know.  

Possible, but I think the main reason for the age group was probably just that the creepy guy who wrote it wanted to also be the star. And "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" came out 20 years ago, so it was already around when 30somethings were teens and the kind of people who might be interested in that type of thing probably already knew about it.

[pretty dizzy]

Many people will find The Bible Reloaded completely crass and unfunny but I enjoy their movie reviews (mostly because I would never ever watch the Christian movies they review). I also enjoy TBR because I fit into the weird combination of being an atheist who is interested in Christian culture.

[ADoyle90815]

I'm another one who loves The Bible Reloaded because of their reviews of Christian movies, plus they've also got some great snark on Chick Tracts.

[pook]

Wondering if any of the Canadian F'jers think "Clay" is Paul Bernardo's doppelganger?

[Beermeet]

Can someone help me understand these "Devotionals" you speak of?  I grew up Catholic and don't remember such a thing.  Thanks in advance!

[Cleopatra7]

1 hour ago, Beermeet said:

Can someone help me understand these "Devotionals" you speak of?  I grew up Catholic and don't remember such a thing.  Thanks in advance!

Devotionals in this context means Bible study guides and textbooks telling viewers what they should get out of the film and how to apply the movie's message to your own life. Obviously, this is very different than the way devotional is used in the Catholic context, although such things are found in Catholic parishes. The Passion had religious material accompanying it, and I remember the Latin Mass parish I used to attend once had a viewing and discussion (with teaching aids) on "Expelled." I can't be more specific about it, since I didn't attend. I thought ID was dumb even then, which probably should have been a sign that I wasn't going to be a very good traditionalist.

[Beermeet]

@Cleopatra7. Thank you.  I get it now.  I don't like it, but I understand.   I can dig a discussion but, not a leading anyone to think one way or another over a movie.  I can't say I ever encountered such.  But, I never attended Catholic school or any religious youth group where such things would be discussed.

[infooverload]

Many people will find The Bible Reloaded completely crass and unfunny but I enjoy their movie reviews (mostly because I would never ever watch the Christian movies they review). I also enjoy TBR because I fit into the weird combination of being an atheist who is interested in Christian culture.

I keep forgetting to check them out so thanks for the reminder. I usually just listen to the God Awful Movies podcast. Being able to listen to a podcast and work makes things so much better.