Michael and Brandon Keilen Part 3

[justmy2cents]

13 hours ago, jqlgoblue said:

I am really bothered / sad for Michael that he won't go see a dr. about infertility... but then again she knew how religious/rigid he was when deciding to marry him and I do think she liked that about him.)

At no point did Brandon say that they couldn't consult a Doctor. There was a talking head before their first anniversary where Michael stated that she was worried that something was wrong but they couldn't even see a doctor until they've been married a year. Brandon added that perhaps god wasn't saying no, just no for now. I saw this as him trying to be supportive and keeping her spirits up. Her post from around a month ago was very clear that several, not just one fertility test indicated that they are infertile so clearly he did not keep her from seeing a doctor. The problem could be with him for all we know. We don't know the details. We do know that he is not quite the asshole he is sometimes made out to be on here.

[meee]

I only skimmed her blog post and don't remember what she said or how to find it. Is there any hope for them to have biological children, with or without medical help, or are they reduced to prayer and not much else?

[VineHeart137]

Her blog post said that they had gotten tests done (and she strongly implied that none of the results were good). She did not mention whether or not she and/or Brandon would be open to getting medical help to conceive.

If I had to guess, just based on their beliefs, I would say that their only course of action is prayer, at least for now. I could see Michael caving at some point and wanting to get fertility treatments, but I think Brandon will be more likely to stand firm on "leaving it up to God" in the most literal sense. All complete speculation based on the little we've seen of them, of course.

[SweetFellowshipper]

Yes, the reason they couldn't see the doctor for a year was because that's the usual way of things for young couples trying to conceive...my husband and I thought we might have issues because of his disability and we were told to try for a year before even coming in for testing, even with his spinal cord injury. (We ended up getting pregnant the first month, though--just goes to show you never know with fertility). The problem could be him or her or both. I took his comment about God just saying "no for now" to be him just trying to be optimistic in a difficult situation, he never hinted he was against seeing a doctor.

I can't see any reason why IUI or IVF would be out of the picture for them from a religious standpoint?

[FeministFunPolice]

45 minutes ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

Yes, the reason they couldn't see the doctor for a year was because that's the usual way of things for young couples trying to conceive...my husband and I thought we might have issues because of his disability and we were told to try for a year before even coming in for testing, even with his spinal cord injury. (We ended up getting pregnant the first month, though--just goes to show you never know with fertility). The problem could be him or her or both. I took his comment about God just saying "no for now" to be him just trying to be optimistic in a difficult situation, he never hinted he was against seeing a doctor.

I can't see any reason why IUI or IVF would be out of the picture for them from a religious standpoint?

IIRC didn't JB&M briefly investigate IVF or something like it on an episode of 19KAC? Erin got treatment for her pregnancy/fertility issues so it's not outside the realm of possibility that Michael and Boredom could. 

[RosyDaisy]

Michelle saw a fertility specialist just to find out if she could still conceive. He said not likely or something to that effect.

[llg1234]

3 hours ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

I can't see any reason why IUI or IVF would be out of the picture for them from a religious standpoint?

 

2 hours ago, FeministFunPolice said:

IIRC didn't JB&M briefly investigate IVF or something like it on an episode of 19KAC? Erin got treatment for her pregnancy/fertility issues so it's not outside the realm of possibility that Michael and Boredom could. 

Erin's situation isn't comparable, she had no problems getting pregnant. It was sustaining a pregnancy that was the problem. Since a fetus is considered a life to them, there's nothing wrong with helping sustaining that life (their logic, not mine).

IVF fertilizes several eggs outside the womb, but not all of them get placed back in the uterus. The leftover eggs are typically destroyed, which is seen as killing a human. There's now 'egg adoption' (which I won't comment on ) and I think there's an option to freeze the leftover eggs for later use, but it's typically not a fundie approved way of conceiving. Other fertility treatments may be possible, but IVF is likely out of the question.

[meee]

I know not all fundies have the same beliefs, so I won't assume M&B think this, but I know Zsuzsanna Anderson has absolutely railed against the "evil" that is IVF.

Is there any such thing as a fundie IVF doctor? Might someone fertilize all the eggs retrieved and put them ALL back?  (I am obviously NOT suggesting that this is a good idea medically - one could end up with octuplets or the like.)  That would get around the problem of destroying embryos, which, yes, is pretty inevitable unless they are all of such good quality that some can be frozen.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, meee said:

I know not all fundies have the same beliefs, so I won't assume M&B think this, but I know Zsuzsanna Anderson has absolutely railed against the "evil" that is IVF.

Is there any such thing as a fundie IVF doctor? Might someone fertilize all the eggs retrieved and put them ALL back?  (I am obviously NOT suggesting that this is a good idea medically - one could end up with octuplets or the like.)  That would get around the problem of destroying embryos, which, yes, is pretty inevitable unless they are all of such good quality that some can be frozen.

I don't think so. Placing all the eggs in is very likely an ethics violation in some states. I think Nadya Suleman's Doctor may have lost his license.

[front hugs > duggs]

**Please do not judge based on my complete lack of education or knowledge on this topic**

If there are "too many" eggs to place back in, is there a way to limit the amount of eggs taken? (if that's the right word) originally?

I could maybe google this, but I'm at work and not sure if anything potentially NSFW could come up.

[VineHeart137]

8 hours ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

I can't see any reason why IUI or IVF would be out of the picture for them from a religious standpoint?

Besides the issue of destroyed embryos that others have mentioned, in theory, if God wants you to have a child, He will make it happen. If it's not happening and you decide to stop waiting around and you run to a doctor to help you create a life, it can be seen as going against the will of God. (Not saying this is definitely what the Keilens believe, just that I can see this being one of the problems fundies have with treatments like IUI and IVF). 

[Carm_88]

8 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

**Please do not judge based on my complete lack of education or knowledge on this topic**

If there are "too many" eggs to place back in, is there a way to limit the amount of eggs taken? (if that's the right word) originally?

I could maybe google this, but I'm at work and not sure if anything potentially NSFW could come up.

I'm not sure that doctors would want to limit the amount of eggs taken because they can't tell egg quality. I'm not certain about this and I also have a feeling that if it failed, they wouldn't want to keep going back in to collect eggs. 

[Mela99]

Having IVF in September so I can answer a little:

- they take out all the follicles that your ovaries create. The more, the better as @Carm_88 said they can't tell quality until they get them under a microscope. 

-  there are ABSOLUTELY regulations about the number of eggs that can be transferred back. In Michigan, the highest number they wil transfer is three and that is only if you're 40 or older. For someone my age, they don't recommend more than two. there's been a lot of crack down on the number of embryos transferred because it means the clinics can fudge their numbers and say they have more pregnancy success. 

I think, if Michaela chose to do anyhing, she would stick to the non-invasive treatments, like clomid, injection cycles, hybrid oral and injection cycles. In that "Chrisitan Fertility" treatment website I shared once, those seem to be the only openly encouraged methods. NO IUI, NO IVF. 

[ModestisHottest]

I wonder if IUI is also off the table because it requires the man to "spill his seed" so it can be collected and injected.  I know that some fundies think that "the sin of Onan" is problematic.  Maybe the Keilens do too?

[Mela99]

IUI can be done with a special condom for collection . But the same rules would apply - they would have to get the sample to the lab in under 45 minutes. I can't say if it's true or not but what I've heard is that tends to be less successful

[justmy2cents]

4 hours ago, Mela99 said:

IUI can be done with a special condom for collection . But the same rules would apply - they would have to get the sample to the lab in under 45 minutes. I can't say if it's true or not but what I've heard is that tends to be less successful

That's interesting.  A friend of mine got pregnant on her first two tries doing just that.  Unfortunately she ended up miscarrying both times (likely due to fibroids.)

As for IVF, I don't think they would be comfortable going that route even though they could always do a low stim cycle where the lower dosage would mature less eggs or a natural IVF cycle where no drugs are used to stimulate the ovaries and only the one or two eggs your body naturally matures would be retrieved.

8 hours ago, Mela99 said:

In Michigan, the highest number they wil transfer is three and that is only if you're 40 or older.

I think I'm lucky that New York didn't have that limit. I did IVF at 42/43 and my doctor suggested to put back all the embryos I had.  I was surprised but he estimated that I only had 1 good egg in 4.  The first time we put back 6.  I became pregnant with just one but miscarried early.  The 2nd time we put back four and I ended up with one.  Every case is individual though and my doctor based his decision on my history of 13 failed IUI's and my less than stellar hormone levels.  

[wikinggirl]

5 hours ago, justmy2cents said:

I think I'm lucky that New York didn't have that limit. I did IVF at 42/43 and my doctor suggested to put back all the embryos I had.  I was surprised but he estimated that I only had 1 good egg in 4.  The first time we put back 6.  I became pregnant with just one but miscarried early.  The 2nd time we put back four and I ended up with one.  Every case is individual though and my doctor based his decision on my history of 13 failed IUI's and my less than stellar hormone levels.  

In Norway they only put one back in at a time, to reduce the chance of multiples. I don't know how it is if you're over 40, but this seem to be the case if you are under at least.

[meee]

17 hours ago, Mela99 said:

I think, if Michaela chose to do anyhing, she would stick to the non-invasive treatments, like clomid, injection cycles, hybrid oral and injection cycles. In that "Chrisitan Fertility" treatment website I shared once, those seem to be the only openly encouraged methods. NO IUI, NO IVF. 

Her taking Clomid or injections would do absolutely nothing, though, if her tubes are blocked or if there's a sperm issue. Sometimes it's IVF or nothing. I really hope that if medical treatment exists that would actually help them, that she'll eventually go for it.

[Jane M.]

18 hours ago, Mela99 said:

Having IVF in September so I can answer a little:

Best of luck to you! I hope everything goes well.

[speller24]

On 7/22/2017 at 10:34 PM, jqlgoblue said:

 (I am really bothered / sad for Michael that he won't go see a dr. about infertility... but then again she knew how religious/rigid he was when deciding to marry him and I do think she liked that about him.)

Rigid. That's it. That's the ideal word to describe him 

[twinmama]

15 hours ago, meee said:

Her taking Clomid or injections would do absolutely nothing, though, if her tubes are blocked or if there's a sperm issue. Sometimes it's IVF or nothing. I really hope that if medical treatment exists that would actually help them, that she'll eventually go for it.

Hopefully they won't do any futile treatments like Clomid with blocked tubes. No need to put yourself through that awesome Clomid rage for nothing!!! 

[nolongerIFBx]

Doctors have developed options for staunch Catholics who want IVF. One is the collection condom discussed above.  Another is that when a couple has as many children as they want, the remaining embryos are implanted at a time when the woman is unlikely to conceive. Thus the embryo is not destroyed, but is unlikely (but not impossible) to implant.

I would also think that it would be possible to only fertilize the eggs of the number of children you want and to freeze any remaining eggs in  case they were needed in the future, but destroying those unfertilzed eggs if they weren't needed would be fine. But Catholic, fundie, atheist, Buddhist, etc., everyone has to make the decisions that they can live with.

[vienna]

Michael not being able to have bilogical kids; Anna Dugger dealing with adultery. Both women are in complicated and hurtful situations anyway. But combined with the burden of the rules of their cult on how to cope and deterin what they can and can not think, feel and do: They are doing a he'll of a job. Cudos 

[takers401]

On 7/27/2017 at 6:52 AM, nolongerIFBx said:

Doctors have developed options for staunch Catholics who want IVF. One is the collection condom discussed above.  Another is that when a couple has as many children as they want, the remaining embryos are implanted at a time when the woman is unlikely to conceive. Thus the embryo is not destroyed, but is unlikely (but not impossible) to implant.

I would also think that it would be possible to only fertilize the eggs of the number of children you want and to freeze any remaining eggs in  case they were needed in the future, but destroying those unfertilzed eggs if they weren't needed would be fine. But Catholic, fundie, atheist, Buddhist, etc., everyone has to make the decisions that they can live with.

I don't know that many doctors would only fertilize a few eggs at a time and freeze the rest. During an IVF cycle Doctors aim to get a high number of eggs because so few actually make it to a transferable embryo. I've done IVF and my Doctor wanted roughly 15 eggs as he expected only 10 to actually fertilize. From those 10, 8 might survive the first night, and 6 might make it to the blastocycst stage. Of those 6 transferable embryos you still might only end up with 1 child. 

[twinmama]

On 7/28/2017 at 2:43 PM, takers401 said:

I don't know that many doctors would only fertilize a few eggs at a time and freeze the rest. During an IVF cycle Doctors aim to get a high number of eggs because so few actually make it to a transferable embryo. I've done IVF and my Doctor wanted roughly 15 eggs as he expected only 10 to actually fertilize. From those 10, 8 might survive the first night, and 6 might make it to the blastocycst stage. Of those 6 transferable embryos you still might only end up with 1 child. 

Yup, I got 17 eggs, 11 of them were mature, 8 actually fertilized, and by day 4 only 3 embryos were still growing. We transferred 2 that day, the 3rd stopped growing that night.