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Michael and Brandon Keilen Part 3


Coconut Flan

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I'm going to get shit for this, but this has been bothering me for a long time in the SAHM discussions:

I honestly have no issue with anyone who is or who wants to be a SAHM and under the right circumstances could see myself making that choice. But please keep in mind, like everyone else on this planet, you are not entitled to whatever you want as soon as you want it. There are also people who want to be doctors or artists or run their own non-profits, and they don't just have it fall in their laps at age twenty. The vast majority need to sacrifice and learn and be patient and make long-term goals. If you're going to argue that being a SAHM is as valid of a choice as any other, then you also need to treat it as such. You need to understand that most people work at jobs that are not their #1 choice. And those who do have their dream jobs worked years to get there.

And yes, as other posters are lamenting, being a SAHM is something that requires several elements that are out of your control. It is a major reason we encourage young people to pursue a paid career of some type, even if they don't work at it for very long. Learning a job skill or getting a certification (I'm not talking thousands of grad school debt but just a viable skill) is something within your control.

You may never get married. Your husband may never make enough money for you to be a SAHM. Your super wealthy husband may get sick. He may walk out on you when you're six months pregnant with your third kid. These are actual things that happen to actual people.

As someone who has had to delay gratification for years and years in my professional and personal life, I'm just really shocked at this ironclad belief among some posters that they should get whatever they want right now. It's such an entitled attitude to me, that ironically, undermines their argument about being an SAHM.

And after seeing this level of immaturity, I am also wondering if some of them really want to raise kids and take care of a house, or if they actually just really want someone else to take care of them and deal with the difficult adult decisions? (Again, they are in for a world of surprises when they realize the challenges of being a wife and mother.)

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@nausicaa, my point isn't that everyone should get everything they want immediately. It's that @bananabread and I both went to law school because of peer/parental/societal pressure- in my case at all of 21 - and we now feel like we got a bad deal because the lifelong debt doesn't allow us to have a few years as a SAHM. Probably much like the Duggar daughters might realize someday that they weren't allowed to choose their lifestyle. @bananabread, did you say you're only a year in? People can and do drop out of law school. Run.

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1 hour ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

@nausicaa, my point isn't that everyone should get everything they want immediately. It's that @bananabread and I both went to law school because of peer/parental/societal pressure- in my case at all of 21 - and we now feel like we got a bad deal because the lifelong debt doesn't allow us to have a few years as a SAHM. Probably much like the Duggar daughters might realize someday that they weren't allowed to choose their lifestyle. @bananabread, did you say you're only a year in? People can and do drop out of law school. Run.

Okay, when you word it like that it seems a bit different. I agree that you shouldn't feel pressured into going to law school if it's not what you want to do, no matter what your ultimate goals are for your life. 

I deleted quoting you in my previous comment because I realized my comment was more general. There were some other comments by other posters that distinctly come off as "I'm twenty and why don't I have everything I want yet?" both on this thread and Duggar threads. It's just a very odd, impatient attitude to me.

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@bananabread I got sucked into law school when I was 21. Basically, I was told growing up (in fundie land, no less, so don't think fundie = automatic approval for being a stay at home mom, it really just means more rules and more people trying to control your life) by my very unhappy stay at home mother that I had to be a either a doctor or a lawyer when I grew up. My undergrad was in anthropology (and I loved circumpolar prehistory, paleonutrition and paeloclimatology so much I can't even express it), and in my fourth year, my boyfriend, who I loved very much, died. I had thought I may want to be a  professor or a writer but without him, none of it made sense. I went into a state of emotional collapse, and was barely functional, but the "get over it" and "what are you going to do next?" just didn't stop. I finally snapped and said "I'll write the LSAT" just to get my family the heck off my back. I gave zero shits, and figured I'd blow it, but it would buy me a year to pretend to "try again" while I got my head on straight. I went into the exam cold (forgot to even bring a pencil) and scored in the 98th percentile - probably because everyone else was so nervous. All of a sudden, I was in law school, and I hating it. I knew that whatever I was going to do, I did not want to be a lawyer. After my first year, I quit. And the reaction from my family and community was horrific, but I was so relieved, it was worth it.

Quitting law school can be done, and I am so happy I pulled the trigger and ended that particular torture. I know quite a few people who say now they wish they had done the same thing, because even if the work is interesting, the scope can be limiting, the hours tend to be bad and the money often isn't as good as it's made out to be. Add in student loans and it can be a recipe for feeling trapped.

I think the main thing is to find a profession that you can live with (hours of work, variety, challenge, money) on a daily basis. Maybe it's law, maybe it's something else, but please don't let other people's expectations run your life. It's a surefire way to be unhappy and resentful.

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I do not believe anyone is entitled to any specific thing or any specific person. I think there are wrong acts to commit in life, but I don't think there is a "wrong" or "right" way to live a life. I do believe everyone should be able to lead a happy life that does not encompass harming others. I don't think there's a recipe for that with children under 18 as they are not allowed all choices. Thus, as a parent, ensuring a happy life to your child at all times is not healthy (they can't just eat candy or drink alcohol at a young age), but on the other hand, (obviously) abuse of any kind should never be allowed. Every child is different, and in parenting, it's important to raise that child as an individual rather than a mini-you or mini what you wanted to be etc. When that child is old enough to explore, I hope everyone encourages happiness over a specific success. Success, money, fame etc. are all short-lived while knowing how to be at peace with yourself and the world around you is a life-long gift. You can make changes to your life until you die. If you sacrifice a job or something else to gain that peace and happiness, then if you can make it happen, go for it and figure out how to make it work. This is what I wish for all people, fundies and their children, as well.

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Lol, just goes to show that you can't win no matter what you do when you're a woman in the workplace and a mom. I've never felt any pressure to work or not be a SAHM, so I'm surprised (and not, because why not guilt women for everything, right?) at all of these comments-- I'm 37 weeks along and all I hear is how I'm going to give up my career once I see my baby, I'm selfish for valuing my professional life, I shouldn't ever use day care, my husband's job is the default, etc. Who knew that my PhD was just supposed to pass the time until I became a mom while my husband was apparently not "selfish" at all for getting his? 

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@SweetFellowshipperCongratulations on your soon to be little love! 

And screw anyone telling you what you should or shouldn't do. You worked hard for your education and your job. If you want to be a working parent then I say do it and don't feel guilty. You can't take care of your child and family properly if you don't take care of yourself too. 

@nausicaaI agree with you. Being a SAHP is a full-time job and a full-time commitment. It's not something that is going to happen immediately for everyone (or at all for some people.)

I will say this though- I don't think it's necessarily weird or abnormal for younger people to be impatient about wanting their lives to start. I got together with my husband ten years ago when we were 19 and I was not happy about having to wait so long for marriage and kids. It took a miscarriage and a premature birth last year to really make me stop and realize how ridiculous it was that I had been as impatient as I had been. I think some people just need time to realize what you said.

And I agree completely about preparing to be a SAHP ahead of time (and just a parent in general), but not just for the reasons you mentioned. There's also the fact that it can be tough for someone going into parenthood for the first time to really grasp how consuming it can be. With a lot of jobs you have set times and other people who can help you out - as a parent, all the responsibility falls on you at all times. Even if you have childcare or even if you have a partner or a spouse who is able to shoulder responsibility as well. That's a really tough transition for a lot of people to intially make because you get used to doing what you want when you want and that just doesn't work too well when you have a tiny person in the picture.

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Anybody get a weird vibe from Brandon? Like a rubber band ready to snap kinda vibe? I don't know what it is about him, but I get this weird vibe everytime he's on the show...

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On 7/17/2017 at 8:27 AM, SweetFellowshipper said:

Lol, just goes to show that you can't win no matter what you do when you're a woman in the workplace and a mom. I've never felt any pressure to work or not be a SAHM, so I'm surprised (and not, because why not guilt women for everything, right?) at all of these comments-- I'm 37 weeks along and all I hear is how I'm going to give up my career once I see my baby, I'm selfish for valuing my professional life, I shouldn't ever use day care, my husband's job is the default, etc. Who knew that my PhD was just supposed to pass the time until I became a mom while my husband was apparently not "selfish" at all for getting his? 

I get this from both sides as well.  I also just lost it when H told the committees he was on he was backing off in his career because we were having a baby and they all assumed I would too.  No, we can't both back off, and if the genders were reversed no one would ever has made those assumptions.  

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2 hours ago, speller24 said:

Anybody get a weird vibe from Brandon? Like a rubber band ready to snap kinda vibe? I don't know what it is about him, but I get this weird vibe everytime he's on the show...

There is something about him that gives me weird feelings too. Don't know what it is. I get the same feeling about him and Austin Forsyth. I don't think either of them are that nice behind closed doors. 

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I don't know. Brandon seems serious and particular, but so does Michaela. I just don't see them as "aw-shucks" friendly-cute as Cherin, as giggly-romantic as Whitney and Zach, or as laid back and practical as Alyssa and John. They both seem religious and reserved. 

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On 18/7/2017 at 7:07 PM, speller24 said:

Anybody get a weird vibe from Brandon? Like a rubber band ready to snap kinda vibe? I don't know what it is about him, but I get this weird vibe everytime he's on the show...

I don't watch the show but I think he's unconfortable in pictures. 

Call me crazy, but I got a bad vibe from Michaela. Like she's never relaxed, never happy and like keeping sweet is just a role play.

Both seem to hide something. Both seem to suffer (even before the infertility issue). I hope I'm wrong and it's just that they're shy and quiet.

Just an opinion, a vibe, based in pictures. Of course I can be absolutely wrong.

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41 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

I don't watch the show but I think he's unconfortable in pictures. 

Call me crazy, but I got a bad vibe from Michaela. Like she's never relaxed, never happy and like keeping sweet is just a role play.

Both seem to hide something. Both seem to suffer (even before the infertility issue). I hope I'm wrong and it's just that they're shy and quiet.

Just an opinion, a vibe, based in pictures. Of course I can be absolutely wrong.

I know they are obviously both very private people, and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that.
But even in their interactions, and their body language with eachother, they just seem like.....friends?
I don't know, we all could be so wrong on this, but it is clear that Michaela wanted to get married, Brandon was flattered enough by her adoration, set off his creative pursuits like the proposal and gifts and sweet gestures, they were both playing a role.
Then he whisked her away to Chicago. I don't know, something just isn't quite right with them.....and that is regardless of Michaela's issues with having a baby.

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1 hour ago, Melissa1977 said:

I don't watch the show but I think he's unconfortable in pictures. 

Call me crazy, but I got a bad vibe from Michaela. Like she's never relaxed, never happy and like keeping sweet is just a role play.

Both seem to hide something. Both seem to suffer (even before the infertility issue). I hope I'm wrong and it's just that they're shy and quiet.

Just an opinion, a vibe, based in pictures. Of course I can be absolutely wrong.

Totally what I was thinking too. There is just something off... oh to be a fly on their kitchen wall.

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From one I've seen from the show (so limited snippets), they don't seem to have the chemistry. If they do, I have a hard time seeing that because of the way they act.

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9 hours ago, ColeJo said:

From one I've seen from the show (so limited snippets), they don't seem to have the chemistry. If they do, I have a hard time seeing that because of the way they act.

This! I don't doubt that they love each other, it just comes across to the viewer as very cold and passionless. It's easy to imagine them in matching single beds side by side. 

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On 16/07/2017 at 11:19 AM, ColeJo said:

I would like to be a SAHM if economically feasible, obviously not now because I'm not in a committed relationship and I have $10K in student that may double by the time I graduate. My parents expect the opposite. I want me to have a career, which is not bad. I just have the desire to be a SAHM more.

I wanted to be a SAHM until I became one. 18 months later I was desperate to be back at work part time. I'm a better parent for the break from my son & like bringing in money & building up my superannuation. Even though my husband can easily support us, life can change. He could have an accident. Die. Leave me. And my career will still be there. I like that feeling of security

onto baby #2 now and taking another 18 months off but then back part time

You may think you want to be a SAHM but you could be surprised with how boring, repetitious (another bloody park!) and isolating it can be for some people. 

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I don't get a weird vibe from either Michael or Brandon. She's shy, he's shy and they're just not as cute-cutesy as Erin and Chad and Michael's just not obnoxious and outgoing like Tori and Carlin. There's nothing wrong about that. We see so little of their actual lives, what do we know if they're in love/passionate about each other or not?

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7 hours ago, Milly-Molly-Mandy said:

I wanted to be a SAHM until I became one. 18 months later I was desperate to be back at work part time. I'm a better parent for the break from my son & like bringing in money & building up my superannuation. Even though my husband can easily support us, life can change. He could have an accident. Die. Leave me. And my career will still be there. I like that feeling of security

onto baby #2 now and taking another 18 months off but then back part time

You may think you want to be a SAHM but you could be surprised with how boring, repetitious (another bloody park!) and isolating it can be for some people. 

I know quite a few people who have experienced this; they wanted to do the SAHM thing but were climbing the walls within a year or two. I know others who had to go back to work and were unhappy about it. Personally, I think I'd be in the former camp. Not so much because I'd be bored or stir-crazy, but because I would miss my job. I LOVE what I do, so it would be hard for me to leave my career behind long-term. 

There's a really good NYTimes article entitled, "The Opt-Out Generation Wants Back In." It was a ten-year retrospective of an article entitled "The Opt-Out Generation," which was about highly educated women (mostly attorneys and MBAs) with excellent careers leaving the workforce voluntarily to be SAHMs. The original article was published in 2003, prior to the great recession, so the follow-up was really interesting. Most of the women who chose to opt out had a really hard time breaking back into their chosen fields post-recession, and several of them had even worse prospects due to divorce or their husbands losing their jobs in the recession. I definitely recommend that people who are considering being long-term SAHMs read both articles and come up with a workable plan to protect themselves and their children should the marriage end (either through death or divorce) or their partner loses their job. 

7 hours ago, Pretzel said:

I don't get a weird vibe from either Michael or Brandon. She's shy, he's shy and they're just not as cute-cutesy as Erin and Chad and Michael's just not obnoxious and outgoing like Tori and Carlin. There's nothing wrong about that. We see so little of their actual lives, what do we know if they're in love/passionate about each other or not?

I don't, either. Some people are just more reserved? Also, don't we always snark on the tryhards who are always going all-out on social media about how much they loooooooooooove their spouse?

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17 minutes ago, JesusCampSongs said:

I don't, either. Some people are just more reserved? Also, don't we always snark on the tryhards who are always going all-out on social media about how much they loooooooooooove their spouse?

I don't exactly feel sorry for the fundies, but sometimes I can't help but think: They're damned if they do, damned if they don't. They'll get snarked on anyhow. In the end, they're people with different personalities just like everyone else. Some of them may feel comfortable in the spotlight and are more outgoing, others aren't but they go along with it for their families' sake. 

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8 hours ago, Pretzel said:

I don't get a weird vibe from either Michael or Brandon. She's shy, he's shy and they're just not as cute-cutesy as Erin and Chad and Michael's just not obnoxious and outgoing like Tori and Carlin. There's nothing wrong about that. We see so little of their actual lives, what do we know if they're in love/passionate about each other or not?

Honestly, I don't doubt that Chad and Erin truly love each other but I find their constant proclamation of it sometimes annoying, and I'm a very very romantic person. I'm sure they're pushed to do that by their cult/the show. But I really don't need to see Whitney and Zach kissing nonstop or hear Cherin say "we are such a happy couple! he/she is the best person in existence!" every second to believe they love each other. Honestly, I found their recent trip to--was it North Carolina?--just as unnatural as anything between Michaela and Brandon, with the constant reiteration of the ROMANCEEEEE. Alyssa and John seem to be the most straightforward and "real" out of all the couples to me.

Also, Michaela and/or Brandon could have personal anxiety or depression issues. Michaela certainly seemed to in the past, before Brandon as well. It doesn't have to be an issue with their relationship. It could easily just be their temperament--we are just so used to seeing happy-happy lovey-lovey fundies. Some people are naturally more sad, bored, lonely, or melancholy, infertility or not, marital issues or not. I have depression and tend to brood and overanalyze, and hubby goes through cycles of depression as well. My husband and I actually have a wonderful, tender marriage, but I'm sure if we were on television, half the time people would think something was deeply wrong under the surface. It is, sometimes...just not with our marriage itself. I can't imagine if the people we were being compared to were the Kellys/Gils/Erins/Chads/Toris/Carlins/Whitneys/Zachs of the world, who seem perpetually relaxed and calm and joyful or outgoing and in-your-face.

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On 7/18/2017 at 0:07 PM, speller24 said:

Anybody get a weird vibe from Brandon? Like a rubber band ready to snap kinda vibe? I don't know what it is about him, but I get this weird vibe everytime he's on the show...

I have.  i've often wondered if he is really pissed off about something.  

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I wanted to be a SAHM.  I wanted a large family (through adoption, ideally.)

In reality, I got married in the second half of my 30's and didn't have children.  I had a business for many years, ended up going back to school in my early 30's, and became a professor.  My life has been all professional, no staying at home, no kids, none of it. 

Then my husband died when I was in my early 40's.  Now I'm in my mid-40's and trying to date again has been laughable (to others; it's far less humorous to me.) 

Some people have to wait for what they want.  Other people never even get a chance. 

Don't go to school for something you hate, but don't plan on getting everything you want, either.  Just be happy if that happens for you. :)

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Agreed CW. I guess I never prioritized marriage and kids enough, and just thought it would happen... I finally found someone I really cared about at 33 and thought I might have miraculously pulled a hat trick but lo and behold he struggled with mental illness (which he hid) and as much as I wanted to work together to figure it out he shut me out emotionally for long enough that the relationship wasn't recoverable and the rest is history. Now it's time to go freeze my eggs. Anyway, same message, I don't think anyone's life is perfect and my only hope is for people to be grateful for what they do have (and I do realize a lot of people don't have much and have real trauma and struggle, and I'm not really talking to those people with this statement).

As for Brandon/Michael I get a repressed vibe from him emotionally. He seems to know how to go through the motions and be 'kind' but he may not have a lot of emotional range. There is an awkwardness to him in public I agree, but based on experience with awkward/emotionally limited guys that doesn't always mean there isn't chemistry or that someone is mean. Often they are kind and sensitive but don't know how to express themselves... I'm not sure that is a recipe for a happy marriage though. (I am really bothered / sad for Michael that he won't go see a dr. about infertility... but then again she knew how religious/rigid he was when deciding to marry him and I do think she liked that about him.)

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23 hours ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

Also, Michaela and/or Brandon could have personal anxiety or depression issues. Michaela certainly seemed to in the past, before Brandon as well. It doesn't have to be an issue with their relationship. It could easily just be their temperament--we are just so used to seeing happy-happy lovey-lovey fundies.

I agree with everything you said, except the bold. Perhaps we are used to the Bates being in our face with PDA and praise, but I really think Jessa and Ben have more of a business arrangement and less of a marriage. They don't even really seem to like each other that much. However, I don't get a creep vibe from Ben the way I do from Brandon. It's not really their lack of affection that makes me think this. He always seems on edge and calculated, like the snap of a twig will send him jumping through he roof. 

Of course this is based on what I've seen on the show and social media, so I could be totally off. 

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