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Michael and Brandon Keilen Part 3


Coconut Flan

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On 6/30/2017 at 5:00 AM, Marly said:

I agree in part. Yes, they would probably be able to take care of the child financially and emotionally, as long as the child fits all their (outdated and disproven) norms. For instance, were their child to be transgender, I doubt it would receive the love and care it needs in a fundy family.

This is what makes me so conflicted about fundie families. I'm sure there are some children (ex. Michael, Erin, Zach) who grow up blissfully happy in fundie-ism. I personally think I might have been happier in fundie-ism than in the secular world...I've always just wanted to be a wife and mother (which can be a STRUGGLE out here in the real world!), and would have loved to have a family that was more protective and involved in my life. Living Erin Paine or Whitney's life was always my dream. At the same time, I've had so many friends (gay, trans, career-minded women, people who wanted to go through a wild college phase, etc etc) who would have done terribly in a fundie home. I don't think all fundies are necessarily bad parents.....but I think they can be a really bad match for some children.

That said, I can't help but hope Michael and Brandon are able to have children somehow, and grow into loving and more religiously moderate parents.

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31 minutes ago, bananabread said:

Living Erin Paine or Whitney's life was always my dream. 

Keep in mind though, that Erin Paine or Whitney's life isn't just cute babies and nice clothes. It's also a husband who is considered intellectually and spiritually above you, a theology that condemns those who believe differently to hell, and a lack of autonomy at every stage of your life (parents have the final say over you until your husband has the final say, and God always has the final say in how many children you are allowed to have).

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5 hours ago, bananabread said:

I've had so many friends (gay, trans, career-minded women, people who wanted to go through a wild college phase, etc etc)

Had you grown up in a fundie household, all those people you were friends with, you would likely have been taught to hate or fear. Think of what you would have missed. Besides, you can be a wife and mother (even a stay at home mother or a housewife) and still be treated as an equal to your partner in the real world. I am those things and I didn't need fundie-ism to get there.

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@front hugs > duggsYes, I understand and agree. I have family in the area - within 30 minutes of us. However, I have zero help during the work week while husband is at the office (and that stretches into entire weekends during Tax Season because husband is barely home.) I'm very fortunate to be able to stay home with my daughter and dog, but it is the toughest work I have personally done because it's a constantly demanding job that falls on me most of the time.* The best and most rewarding work, but also the most exhausting and difficult work.

My point with Jessa and Jill was that it's just not fair to compare different moms in vastly different situations to one another. Even if they're siblings raised in the same house by the same parents. No one knows what actually goes on in their families and it just really bugs me when people make comparisons based off a very small amount of information.

As for you personally - you will find what works best for you and your family. If you do end up continuing to work then you may need some sort of help (such as daycare or a nanny or family) - unless you can work out an arrangement where you can work from home or work different hours then your partner. Just remember there's no shame in accepting any help and there's no shame in who you accept that help from.

And also remember that "having it all" really doesn't exist for any parent - working parents sacrifice time with their families because that's what they need to do, while stay-at-home parents often set their careers and salaries back by stepping away from the work to be with their families (whether by choice or necessity.) Just figure out what makes most sense for you and your family and don't allow anyone to make you feel guilty for how you live. :)

*Note that I made sure to say it was the toughest work for me, not the toughest work for every mom. 

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9 hours ago, nausicaa said:

Keep in mind though, that Erin Paine or Whitney's life isn't just cute babies and nice clothes. It's also a husband who is considered intellectually and spiritually above you

Intellectually? Is this a Gothard teaching, do you know?

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27 minutes ago, JemimaPuddle-Duck said:

Intellectually? Is this a Gothard teaching, do you know?

I'm not sure if it's an explicit Gothard teaching but I feel like an integral part of the submission/"Umbrella of Protection" tenet heavily insinuates that men are in charge because they are both stronger and smarter. There have been blog posts from other Gothardites who argue that men are more rational and more ambitious, and therefore more suited to working outside the home. It seems to be danced around a bit, but I feel like there's a strong undercurrent of, "aw you little women are so cute and silly." 

That being said, from what I've seen Chad especially seems to respect Erin and obviously I don't know what goes on inside their homes. I did think Zach's comment on the Dateline special, "She's the best little wife. She's lovin'. Beautiful" was condescending.

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@nausicaa thanks for responding. I wondered if there was a genuine teaching of this among Gothardites/ATI folks. This is definitely NOT something I've come across in my own experience, which is mostly in reformed circles. Women are generally considered very intelligent, I have personally heard that brought up (genuinely, not in jest) in sermons, lectures, and conversation. Amongst my friends, many of the husbands consider their wives to be smarter than them in many ways, and girls are afforded the same level of education as boys.

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On 7/3/2017 at 9:23 PM, JemimaPuddle-Duck said:

@nausicaa thanks for responding. I wondered if there was a genuine teaching of this among Gothardites/ATI folks. This is definitely NOT something I've come across in my own experience, which is mostly in reformed circles. Women are generally considered very intelligent, I have personally heard that brought up (genuinely, not in jest) in sermons, lectures, and conversation. Amongst my friends, many of the husbands consider their wives to be smarter than them in many ways, and girls are afforded the same level of education as boys.

I don't think it is actually a teaching, but in the end it really doesn't matter as long as submission is being taught. In your circles, are women still supposed to be submissive to men, or are they considered equal to men? In Gothard(and in the IFB circles I was in) no matter how smart the woman was, she still had to be submissive to the man. Men were the leaders of the house.  Gothard didn't actually teach not educating women, he just taught that men were the head of the woman, so she had to be submissive.

In the end, the submissive teachings mean that no matter how smart a woman is, she still has to bow to the whim of the man even if she is smarter and better able to make decisions. The entire women being submissive mindset results in women being treated as less intelligent, no matter if there are men who say their wives are smarter or sermons saying women are intelligent. If women are so intelligent, there is no reason for submission, they can be treated as equals. 

@bananabread, I've pretty much always wanted to be a stay at home mom and that is what I am now, but even with me having that desire, the fundie life wasn't fun. The Bates may paint a shiny picture of happiness, but trust me, you really didn't miss much. 

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In the VF world, you had dudes like R.C. Sproul Jr. who concede that women can be very intelligent, but believe that it's less important for them to be smart than to be nurturing and ready for domestic labor. (His example was a nine year old girl who couldn't read but knew how to change diapers and raise her parents' kids.) I don't know about ATI teachings though.

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Right, in some religious circles (or even in 1960s America generally) the wife is smart and industrious. It's just a different type of smarts that is meant to help the man make better decisions, help on the people side, or see and manage risks. The guy has the big ideas, vision and strategy and the woman makes sure it doesn't go astray and so may influence the vision enough that it changes significantly, but the idea is never hers.

I still see it business/industry and the jobs where women can excel. Women do either HR/people jobs or they can move up in project management (get shit done, see and avoid the risks and potholes) roles. However, it is still very hard for women to move up in the 'thought' and 'vision' roles, whether they be engineering or business/product management.

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19 hours ago, jqlgoblue said:

I still see it business/industry and the jobs where women can excel. Women do either HR/people jobs or they can move up in project management (get shit done, see and avoid the risks and potholes) roles. However, it is still very hard for women to move up in the 'thought' and 'vision' roles, whether they be engineering or business/product management

Quoted for truth.

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I really don't know where I stand on this issue. On the one hand, I totally get the concept of NO MOAR KIDS IN TEH CULT. And agree. But, on the other hand, I wouldn't wish infertility on anyone. It's an incredibly upsetting and deeply personal issue, even without family, friends and outsiders expecting you to have a bajillion kids from the get go. I kind of DO hope Michael has a child, just for her own personal happiness. She, more than most of the fundie girls we know, seemed to want kids out of a genuine desire to have them rather than just "oh, guess I have to have as many kids as God gives me" with the undertone of "yeah I want kids but only three or four" or "don't really want kids but..." Michael must be feeling a little ostracised; she's surrounded with sisters and a sister-in-law who all have two young kids, which can really fuel the feelings of inadequacy if you don't have one of your own and you've been trying.

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in real life, you can choose to be a stay at home mom among a myriad of other possible options and paths. In fundie life, that's pretty much the only path a woman has. Yes, there are fundie-approved "professions" for women, but first and foremost the expectation is that a woman will be a stay-at-home mom or spouse. 

I cannot see any advantage or benefit whatsoever in the fundie option. 

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On 3/7/2017 at 4:10 PM, bananabread said:

This is what makes me so conflicted about fundie families. I'm sure there are some children (ex. Michael, Erin, Zach) who grow up blissfully happy in fundie-ism.

I'm sure Zach wasn't happy as a megafundie. First of all, he has never joined Alert camp and other Gothardite activities.  Second, he has been working hard to have a regular job, not a preaching/grifting one and third, he choosed to marry a woman who was attending a secular school, wore pants and worked in a restaurant (not exactly a fundie approved job).

Yes, Zach is fundie. He has extreme beliefs. But he's not copying his parents way of life. If he was confortable being megafundie he would have stayed in an isolated life with a maxwellian wife, but he choosed something different.

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16 hours ago, Shouldabeenacowboy said:

in real life, you can choose to be a stay at home mom among a myriad of other possible options and paths. In fundie life, that's pretty much the only path a woman has. Yes, there are fundie-approved "professions" for women, but first and foremost the expectation is that a woman will be a stay-at-home mom or spouse. 

I cannot see any advantage or benefit whatsoever in the fundie option. 

I suppose you (and others who have voiced similar points) are right. I just can't help but feel resentful for being told my whole life things like "you're too smart to not get a professional degree," "you can't get married or have children young," etc etc. I guess it's the opposite of fundie culture. In my neck of the woods, telling people you want to be a stay at home wife is akin to saying "I'm a dumb mooch who wants to live off my hubby's hard earned money." I'm a law student, and I'm surrounded by women who can't fathom wanting children or a family any time soon. They are 100% career focused. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but I'm wired differently, and it can be hard feeling like you live in a world you don't belong in. :( Even my fiance has expressed numerous times that he wishes it were more economically feasible/socially acceptable for me to just be a housewife. He takes pride in providing for us financially, but the pressures of mainstream culture make it really, really difficult. (Plus I now have to pay back hella student debt for a degree I didn't really want to begin with.)

I guess I've just always wanted to find a community of people who felt the way I did about life, family, and children, and I see a bit of that in the fundie way of life. No offense meant to anyone. :)

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5 hours ago, bananabread said:

I suppose you (and others who have voiced similar points) are right. I just can't help but feel resentful for being told my whole life things like "you're too smart to not get a professional degree," "you can't get married or have children young," etc etc. I guess it's the opposite of fundie culture. In my neck of the woods, telling people you want to be a stay at home wife is akin to saying "I'm a dumb mooch who wants to live off my hubby's hard earned money." I'm a law student, and I'm surrounded by women who can't fathom wanting children or a family any time soon. They are 100% career focused. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but I'm wired differently, and it can be hard feeling like you live in a world you don't belong in. :( Even my fiance has expressed numerous times that he wishes it were more economically feasible/socially acceptable for me to just be a housewife. He takes pride in providing for us financially, but the pressures of mainstream culture make it really, really difficult. (Plus I now have to pay back hella student debt for a degree I didn't really want to begin with.)

I guess I've just always wanted to find a community of people who felt the way I did about life, family, and children, and I see a bit of that in the fundie way of life. No offense meant to anyone. :)

The problem is that people are pushed one way or the other.  I don't know anyone who was completely free from those kinds of pressures.  Also, at some point there isn't a choice anymore.  Once you go to law school can you really chose to stop?  I know several women lawyers who would like to walk away and be SAHMs but can't because of student loans (I know some men who feel the same way).  

Basically, I understand what your saying.  I don't think you would really like to be fundi, but wouldn't it be nice if you could stay home and not be judged?  Or if it was economically viable to do so?  There aren't great answers to these questions, but I think the fact that you can say what you want and stand up for it outside of fundi life is the important difference. Its not easy, and you have to give up things financially, but its doable and your friends and family may judge, but you are probably sure they will still love you.  

Basically, we get more choices as non fund's, but I'm with you in getting annoyed when people say well chose to do something thats not a very viable option.  

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I have a friend who got married while in law school and was pregnant when she graduated. She has never used her law degree because she genuinely wants to be home with her daughter while she's so young (she will be 2 in the fall) and she has gotten a lot of flack for it. She does plan to use it eventually but apparently the fact that she didn't immediately jump into a career after graduating is unfathomable to some people.

I am a SAHM as well but before I had my daughter I taught preschool, and both my mom and mother-in-law stayed home while their children were small. So admittedly it was probably more "socially acceptable" for someone in my field and family circle to become a SAHM than it would be for a lawyer or a doctor. But I do have sympathy for those of you who want to be a SAHM/housewife/ whatever the heck you want, but feel like you can't due to societal pressures.

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27 minutes ago, VineHeart137 said:

I have a friend who got married while in law school and was pregnant when she graduated. She has never used her law degree because she genuinely wants to be home with her daughter while she's so young (she will be 2 in the fall) and she has gotten a lot of flack for it. She does plan to use it eventually but apparently the fact that she didn't immediately jump into a career after graduating is unfathomable to some people.

I am a SAHM as well but before I had my daughter I taught preschool, and both my mom and mother-in-law stayed home while their children were small. So admittedly it was probably more "socially acceptable" for someone in my field and family circle to become a SAHM than it would be for a lawyer or a doctor. But I do have sympathy for those of you who want to be a SAHM/housewife/ whatever the heck you want, but feel like you can't due to societal pressures.

It seems likely, then that some certain percentage of women are sort of pretending they don't want to be at home, much the way some number of them used to have to pretend it was just what they wanted.

I remember being derided for not wanting a high powered career and power suit life back in the 80s. But I'm lousy at dissembling and would have been just no good at it. Now, at least there are many more good and varied job options than there were then, but women are still made to feel they are valuable only if they are earning a steady income (well, and the same is true of men who are the homemakers, of course.) It has cost me a lot, relationship-wise, and my satisfaction has always had to be tinged with guilt, and I hate that it's still costing others.

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On 7/11/2017 at 10:31 AM, bananabread said:

I suppose you (and others who have voiced similar points) are right. I just can't help but feel resentful for being told my whole life things like "you're too smart to not get a professional degree," "you can't get married or have children young," etc etc. I guess it's the opposite of fundie culture. In my neck of the woods, telling people you want to be a stay at home wife is akin to saying "I'm a dumb mooch who wants to live off my hubby's hard earned money." I'm a law student, and I'm surrounded by women who can't fathom wanting children or a family any time soon. They are 100% career focused. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but I'm wired differently, and it can be hard feeling like you live in a world you don't belong in. :( Even my fiance has expressed numerous times that he wishes it were more economically feasible/socially acceptable for me to just be a housewife. He takes pride in providing for us financially, but the pressures of mainstream culture make it really, really difficult. (Plus I now have to pay back hella student debt for a degree I didn't really want to begin with.)

I guess I've just always wanted to find a community of people who felt the way I did about life, family, and children, and I see a bit of that in the fundie way of life. No offense meant to anyone. :)

I 100% feel that it's ok to want to stay at home. I've been at home full-time most of our marriage. I worked after our first baby so my husband could finish his degree, but when she was two I stayed at home full time. I did do some part-time work in the middle there, more out of something i was interested in at the time than out of necessity.  Our kids are now adults and teens. I don't have plans to return to the work force, and will most likely travel with my hubby and help with any grandchildren that may come if they want it, and continue volunteer work. It's worked for us. I will say, it can be isolating. Especially once the kids were school-age. 

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On 7/11/2017 at 4:15 PM, justoneoftwo said:

Once you go to law school can you really chose to stop?

You can if mommy and daddy are rich enough that you don't have to worry about student loans. I know someone who has a trust fund. She graduated from college pre-med. She then did three semesters of med school, took a year off (no job), did a semester and a half of law school, then decided to open up a gun store which mommy and daddy bought for her.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Bethella said:

You can if mommy and daddy are rich enough that you don't have to worry about student loans. I know someone who has a trust fund. She graduated from college pre-med. She then did three semesters of med school, took a year off (no job), did a semester and a half of law school, then decided to open up a gun store which mommy and daddy bought for her.

 

 

Yes being rich and having parents who would put up with that (mine certainly wouldn't) frees you up in general.  I tend to think the majority of the people in the world have fewer choices than we let on.

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12 hours ago, Bethella said:

You can if mommy and daddy are rich enough that you don't have to worry about student loans. I know someone who has a trust fund. She graduated from college pre-med. She then did three semesters of med school, took a year off (no job), did a semester and a half of law school, then decided to open up a gun store which mommy and daddy bought for her.

 

 

Where do I sign up for this kind of life? :pb_lol::pb_lol::pb_lol:

Neither of my parents contributed anything to my education. My dad is a sort-of functioning alcoholic, and my mom is mentally ill and disowned me when I went to law school. The genetic lottery is a crazy thing. But at least I gained some life skills out of it. :my_rolleyes:

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On 7/11/2017 at 10:31 AM, bananabread said:

I guess I've just always wanted to find a community of people who felt the way I did about life, family, and children, and I see a bit of that in the fundie way of life. No offense meant to anyone. :)

I am sorry that you felt pushed/pressured, that is not OK whatever you want to do in life - stay home or otherwise. I can see that pressure in some communities, just like the mirror pressure in fundy life. 

As for society's expectations...my husband is leaving his VP/executive life to become a stay-at-home spouse in order to, as he put it, "Enjoy life and enjoy wife". In reality, he will still be doing some type of work (he has patents, he is invited to speaking gigs/conferences, etc.) but he is done with the merry-go-round and wants to support my rising career, and, most importantly, enjoy the home life with me and our son, who should be making an appearance just after the New Year 2018. :)

I bring this up because we have received our "healthy dose" of snarky comments, half smiles, etc. to which we have replied, without fail, with a full smile and a middle finger. We don't give a damn about what others think regarding how we should live our lives. It works for us, and that is the end of the discussion.

Good luck to you!!! :)

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It also sucks that you can't choose to be a SAHM until you're in a serious relationship with a partner who is willing and able to support you. Meanwhile (unless you're the Duggar and Bates daughters), you have to do something, and that's probably going to be whatever your peer group is doing, which can easily take you away from that goal.

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I would like to be a SAHM if economically feasible, obviously not now because I'm not in a committed relationship and I have $10K in student that may double by the time I graduate. My parents expect the opposite. I want me to have a career, which is not bad. I just have the desire to be a SAHM more.

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