Michael and Brandon Keilen Part 3

[Coconut Flan]

Continue on from here:

Their two year anniversary is coming up soon and Michael has gone public with infertility issues.

[snickers34]

Quote

I'm thankful that it's one less child born into an evil abusive cult. The well-being of children trumps everything else.

I'd rather be born into one of these families than not exist at all.

[JesusCampSongs]

Re: the previous discussion of whether or not fundie women would be less desirable if they knew they were sub- or in-fertile prior to marriage: 

Surely there are some fundie guys out there who would see that as a feature rather than a bug, in the vein of only having 0-4 kids instead of 10+. They'd look good by graciously marrying a woman with issues and not have to deal with raising and feeding a mega-brood. We always speculate about fundie women who low-key don't want to hit double-digits in kids-- why wouldn't some of the men feel the same way?

[front hugs > duggs]

@VelociRapture mentioned in the last thread about it not being totally fair on Jill to compare her and Jessa as mothers due to their different circumstances. While I agree with most of what you said, I don't know if I personally can fully get behind feeling more sympathetic (? if that's the best word choice, maybe that isn't what you were indicating though) that Jill doesn't have help. There are plenty of women who don't have family close by to help and can still be hands on, compassionate mothers. Many women may not even have a partner to help raise a child with (although, Jill may or may not have Derrick's help in raising Izzy  ).

I'm not trying to start an argument with you on that or anything!!! It's more that always on my mind that I wish to have a professional career and be a mother someday. I've mentioned this before, but we had a women's panel at my workplace last year, and when one woman asked the panel "how do you do it all???" , three out of the four answered "with my mom's help!". I guess that's frustrating to me as I no longer have my mom, I can't possibly imagine my dad as a hands-on grandparent, and my in-laws are across the pond. It's daunting to imagine trying to be the best mom ever as well as continue working, but I plan on doing it.

Also I recognize that we don't actually know how Jill is as a mother and only as it appears on the show and social media. But I do get a similar impression as most others, that despite her being "alone" in Cintral 'Murica, she appears less hands on with Izzy than Jessa does with her sons. Also I'm thinking this was maybe more of a selfish rant than being on topic. Sorry about that! 

[nokidsmom]

13 hours ago, JesusCampSongs said:

We always speculate about fundie women who low-key don't want to hit double-digits in kids-- why wouldn't some of the men feel the same way?

I have thought about this at times.   There's got to be fundie guys who have seen from their own upbringing what a struggle it was for their own fathers to support a large family and do not want the same for themselves.   There's also has to be the additional concern that they will not find someone who is on board with having a smaller family so with a woman who has some known issues that could affect fertility, this would not be a show stopper for these guys.

[BeccaGrim]

3 hours ago, front hugs > duggs said:

@VelociRapture mentioned in the last thread about it not being totally fair on Jill to compare her and Jessa as mothers due to their different circumstances. While I agree with most of what you said, I don't know if I personally can fully get behind feeling more sympathetic (? if that's the best word choice, maybe that isn't what you were indicating though) that Jill doesn't have help. There are plenty of women who don't have family close by to help and can still be hands on, compassionate mothers. Many women may not even have a partner to help raise a child with (although, Jill may or may not have Derrick's help in raising Izzy  ).

I'm not trying to start an argument with you on that or anything!!! It's more that always on my mind that I wish to have a professional career and be a mother someday. I've mentioned this before, but we had a women's panel at my workplace last year, and when one woman asked the panel "how do you do it all???" , three out of the four answered "with my mom's help!". I guess that's frustrating to me as I no longer have my mom, I can't possibly imagine my dad as a hands-on grandparent, and my in-laws are across the pond. It's daunting to imagine trying to be the best mom ever as well as continue working, but I plan on doing it.

Also I recognize that we don't actually know how Jill is as a mother and only as it appears on the show and social media. But I do get a similar impression as most others, that despite her being "alone" in Cintral 'Murica, she appears less hands on with Izzy than Jessa does with her sons. Also I'm thinking this was maybe more of a selfish rant than being on topic. Sorry about that! 

This is the Michael/Brandon post but on this topic--I think Jill just looks miserable in general and really obnoxious this season.  I don't think anyone but Jana likes having her around.  Maybe Joy. 

16 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

Continue on from here:

Their two year anniversary is coming up soon and Michael has gone public with infertility issues.

I feel terrible for Michael after reading the post they shared from her about infertility and her struggles. Seems she is very, very upset and my heart breaks for her. 

[nokidsmom]

I feel for Michael too.   She looked so overjoyed when she married Brandon, to start a life with him, one that included children.  Experiencing infertility has to be tremendously hard for her, and it's not because she's not following the fundie life script or emulating her mother, this is very personal for her.    

 

 

[jacduggar]

I really feel for Michael. She's one of the only girls in either of the mega families who actually seemed to genuinely enjoy being a sister-mom, you can just tell she wants kids in that real way. Not the "this is my only choice" way. 

[missegeno]

18 hours ago, snickers34 said:

I'd rather be born into one of these families than not exist at all.

Good thing never existing isn't exactly something you can experience. I never understand this sort of statement, like when fundies are sooooo happy they weren't aborted. As if they would have any opinions in it if they had been aborted. Am I the weird one in thinking this is weird?

[nokidsmom]

22 minutes ago, missegeno said:

Good thing never existing isn't exactly something you can experience. I never understand this sort of statement, like when fundies are sooooo happy they weren't aborted. As if they would have any opinions in it if they had been aborted. Am I the weird one in thinking this is weird?

No.  

[BeccaGrim]

38 minutes ago, missegeno said:

Good thing never existing isn't exactly something you can experience. I never understand this sort of statement, like when fundies are sooooo happy they weren't aborted. As if they would have any opinions in it if they had been aborted. Am I the weird one in thinking this is weird?

This is very well put.  

[Mela99]

http://www.christianpost.com/news/bringing-up-bates-daughter-reveals-infertility-struggle-says-it-affected-relationship-with-god-189966/ Bringing up Bates Official FB posted this.

Sigh. 

This just rubs me the wrong way. 

I hope this was all her choice. 

[ColeJo]

1 hour ago, Mela99 said:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/bringing-up-bates-daughter-reveals-infertility-struggle-says-it-affected-relationship-with-god-189966/ Bringing up Bates Official FB posted this.

Sigh. 

This just rubs me the wrong way. 

I hope this was all her choice. 

I hope so also. If I had to deal with this, I would do it privately with support of my family. This is the issue I have with reality TV. She doesn't really have a choice because she has to deal with people relentlessly asking if she is pregnant. Because of her position in the fameosphere, she has to share things like this whether she wants to or not.

[Coconut Flan]

Yes, and, of course, UP wants to promote it.  They'll probably try to get her to talk about it on the show. 

[Snarkle]

22 hours ago, JesusCampSongs said:

Re: the previous discussion of whether or not fundie women would be less desirable if they knew they were sub- or in-fertile prior to marriage: 

Surely there are some fundie guys out there who would see that as a feature rather than a bug, in the vein of only having 0-4 kids instead of 10+. They'd look good by graciously marrying a woman with issues and not have to deal with raising and feeding a mega-brood. We always speculate about fundie women who low-key don't want to hit double-digits in kids-- why wouldn't some of the men feel the same way?

 

9 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

I have thought about this at times.   There's got to be fundie guys who have seen from their own upbringing what a struggle it was for their own fathers to support a large family and do not want the same for themselves.   There's also has to be the additional concern that they will not find someone who is on board with having a smaller family so with a woman who has some known issues that could affect fertility, this would not be a show stopper for these guys.

I am thinking of those guys who want to righteously be able to fulfill their ahem, needs, without the consequences of the deed itself.  Just like every non-fundie guy is thrilled to be a dad, even if a guy comes from a large fundie family and is surrounded by kids, it doesn't mean he wants a large family (or kids at all) of his own.  Like the women in the QF world, it's theoretically not his choice of how many kids to have (of course abstention is a possibility, or perhaps NFP depending on how deep convictions are held), so not having the possibility of eleventy!!1!!1 kids could be desirable for some fundie guys.  Naturally in their culture the work of both having, caring for, and "educating" the children does come to the mother, but the father is (supposedly) responsible for providing for his kids (and we've seen many fundie dads who fall way short in that way pursuing their own "callings" *cough cough - Shrader, Rodrigues, etc.*).  I myself have friends whose husbands were relieved when they learned they could only have a one or two kids, or even none, or set about permanently preventing the possibility themselves.   So it may not be discussed in their circles much, but there have got to be at least a handful of fundie guys who could be pleased with and would bask in the kudos they'd receive for taking a potentially non- or semi-fertile wife.

[snickers34]

4 hours ago, missegeno said:

Good thing never existing isn't exactly something you can experience. I never understand this sort of statement, like when fundies are sooooo happy they weren't aborted. As if they would have any opinions in it if they had been aborted. Am I the weird one in thinking this is weird?

My point is that I don't take any joy or relief in people (that have the means to care for and love a child) not being able to conceive, even for fundies. Yes, there's all sort of stories about blanket training (none of which were linked to Brandon/Michael). Yes, I don't agree with their views on lots of things. But I still see no evidence to prove they wouldn't love and care for their children. Any implications that "it's probably best they can't conceive because they're conservative fundies" I find to be really awful. That's just me and my pro-choice stance - it's her uterus, not ours. She wants a kid and can take care of it? I wish her nothing but the best. The end. 

[backyard sylph]

22 hours ago, JesusCampSongs said:

Re: the previous discussion of whether or not fundie women would be less desirable if they knew they were sub- or in-fertile prior to marriage: 

Surely there are some fundie guys out there who would see that as a feature rather than a bug, in the vein of only having 0-4 kids instead of 10+. They'd look good by graciously marrying a woman with issues and not have to deal with raising and feeding a mega-brood. We always speculate about fundie women who low-key don't want to hit double-digits in kids-- why wouldn't some of the men feel the same way?

I'm sure you're right, and that probably many of them do. So much pressure; work for income, work at home, less time with wife or for leisure or hobbies. Most of them don't have cable TV income.

[missegeno]

My point is that I don't take any joy or relief in people (that have the means to care for and love a child) not being able to conceive, even for fundies. Yes, there's all sort of stories about blanket training (none of which were linked to Brandon/Michael). Yes, I don't agree with their views on lots of things. But I still see no evidence to prove they wouldn't love and care for their children. Any implications that "it's probably best they can't conceive because they're conservative fundies" I find to be really awful. That's just me and my pro-choice stance - it's her uterus, not ours. She wants a kid and can take care of it? I wish her nothing but the best. The end. 

Ah, thanks for clarifying. That wasn't the impression i got from your original post. I thought you thought it was somehow worse to have never existed than to be born into one of these families. I completely agree though that I would never wish infertility on anyone. Your uterus, your choice, even if I detest everything you stand for (and even if you try to control my uterus). What you argue against is not at all what I was referring to.

I was more stating that it's weird to say "I'd rather x than have never existed" because that sentence makes absolutely no sense at all.

[socalrules]

The thing is, I don't think most fundies would have any idea that there may be problems getting pregnant. I would guess that most fundy women never went to a gynecologist prior to getting married, and I would bet most of these hardcore "let's use an unlicensed midwife for the birth" likely never see a real Gynecologist after they are married. Realistically, many people in general won't know there is a possibility of infertility until they have already started trying to conceive. So, I don't think the issue of whether fundy men would marry a fundy woman knowing she may never be able to get pregnant is really an issue. How would they know? 

[Marly]

8 hours ago, snickers34 said:

My point is that I don't take any joy or relief in people (that have the means to care for and love a child) not being able to conceive, even for fundies.  But I still see no evidence to prove they wouldn't love and care for their children. 

I agree in part. Yes, they would probably be able to take care of the child financially and emotionally, as long as the child fits all their (outdated and disproven) norms. For instance, were their child to be transgender, I doubt it would receive the love and care it needs in a fundy family. Same for a child that experiences sexual abuse, or a child that is gay. Given their religous views and outlooks on life, it is very unlikely that these children would be accepted for who they are, or would receive the proper help and care they need. And personally, I consider that a form of abuse.
Of course, there is always the possibility that the parents start to see reason once they are confronted with issues like this themselves. However, I have read too many stories of gay and transgender people who suffered mental (and sometimes even physical) abuse, and were ostracised by their family because their religious parents wouldn't accept them for who they are, to be too hopeful of a positive outcome when fundy parents are involved.

[Carm_88]

16 hours ago, Mela99 said:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/bringing-up-bates-daughter-reveals-infertility-struggle-says-it-affected-relationship-with-god-189966/ Bringing up Bates Official FB posted this.

Sigh. 

This just rubs me the wrong way. 

I hope this was all her choice. 

Yeah, it rubs me the wrong way too. Michael and Brandon both seem relatively private, I don't see them as people who would want this all over the place.  But of course the Bates need to make more money. 

[Tater_Toddler]

19 hours ago, missegeno said:

I'd rather x than have never existed" because that sentence makes absolutely no sense at all.

I don't know, I think it makes sense. Maybe you don't agree with it, but I would rather experience life in one of those families than not experience it at all. 

Maybe phrased this way: if I had to choose, I would choose to be born in that family instead of never being born at all. Yes, I wouldn't know the difference if I was never born, but if I could make that choice, I would.

Obviously not not everyone will agree. 

[Irene]

On 30.6.2017 at 0:44 AM, Coconut Flan said:

Yes, and, of course, TLC wants to promote it.  They'll probably try to get her to talk about it on the show. 

I feel sorry for if she feel like she HAVE TO  talked about! I am very resvered and private person,but I can not imagended being in her possison.

And alsso glad I dont need to, my life has not been great til now ( My boyfriend my love(, and it took about six months to open and I am still not completian open, My first blyfriend 36.

[luxfilia]

On 6/29/2017 at 10:33 PM, socalrules said:

(Clipped)
Realistically, many people in general won't know there is a possibility of infertility until they have already started trying to conceive.

This is so true and so frustrating. For the past 10 years, I have been going to the gynecologist and multiple doctors and nurse practitioners have made comments on many of my issues being symptoms of PCOS  or other problems. I had issues since I was about 13, but never went to the doctor about it until I was out of my parents' house. All doctors have ever suggested, outside of some minimal blood testing, is that I go on birth control.

I don't want to bore you or complain about all of my hormonal issues, but my point is that even when I want more testing done, doctors ALWAYS tell me that until I try for a baby and have trouble conceiving, there's really no need. I find that very frustrating. (Birth control pills do lessen some of my symptoms, but don't affect many of them at all, and the only kind that "helps" are the kind that are more likely to cause blood clots, which I'm paranoid about, as I often get pains in my legs. NOT a long term solution.) 

If there is something I can do to prevent a miscarriage or better prepare my body, I'd like to know NOW, not when I try to have a baby (which may be sooner rather than later, anyhow). (Like, are my tubes being damaged as we speak? ) But a wide variety of doctors seem to think this way. And when your insurance sucks (I'm currently covered through the healthcare marketplace, but it's a horrible plan), there's not much more than you can do. I now take a plant-based multi-vitamin, try to do hormone-helpful kundalini yoga and regularly go running, keep a plant-based vegan diet, and more, just in hopes that I am doing something good for myself even if the doctors won't.

So I've had symptoms for years, have been to doctors, and still don't know (but fear) I'll have trouble with pregnancy. I agree that a fundie girl/woman, especially with no symptoms and perhaps never having visiting a gyno, may not realize she could have trouble conceiving. It must be especially shocking.

[Granwych]

On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 9:00 AM, front hugs > duggs said:

"how do you do it all???" , three out of the four answered "with my mom's help!"

They are lucky.  I had a miserable 9-month long PPD, and my mother was no bloody help at all.