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Four is Enough

Along with everyone else who's discussed infertility, I chime in with: try telling the guy you're dating that you're infertile... just once. That if he wants to have kids in the usual way, he's out of luck with you. 

Thankfully, he turned out to be an amazing man, and when time came for kids, jumped through every hoop we were presented with in order to make it happen, and never looked back. 

I know some people are not that fortunate to get an understanding and tolerant partner. I am sorry.

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If you have never experienced infertility, here's a handy chart on how to politely comment on "the struggle": 1.SHUT UP 2.SHUT UP 3. SHUT UP 4. SHUT UP 5. SHUT UP 6. SHUT

While I mostly agree with your sentiment, I think it's slightly cruel to be happy for Michael Bates since she has posted about how her failure to conceive is breaking her heart.  Despite wanting a sma

I'll say this: I was pretty stoked to hear Jeremy continually praise Jinger's intelligence. He looked really happy & proud of her, too. That's a wonderful thing for him to encourage.

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sunshine
1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

Along with everyone else who's discussed infertility, I chime in with: try telling the guy you're dating that you're infertile... just once. That if he wants to have kids in the usual way, he's out of luck with you. 

Thankfully, he turned out to be an amazing man, and when time came for kids, jumped through every hoop we were presented with in order to make it happen, and never looked back. 

I know some people are not that fortunate to get an understanding and tolerant partner. I am sorry.

I am glad and pleasantly surprised that Michaela married a man who was supportive in this matter. The girls are taught from their youth that they are to become mothers. However, do the teach them in the even that you can't conceive that it doesn't make you less that a woman? I hope so. There are other mean to achieve this goal like adoption for one. I wish her the best and pray that she grows from this and maybe help others.

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ThunderRolls

@SadieJane - So well-said. I agree about Jill in that she probably would have been that goody-goody personality type no matter what. It's interesting, prior to her engagement to Derick, my view of Jill was of this impossibly sweet, innocent young girl with few faults. I didn't see as many of the negative aspects like others did. It always did appear that she was the Boob's favorite child, though.

After she got engaged to Derick, I started to see this prissiness emerge where she seemed to lord it over her sisters that she had a man. This attitude was always there, but it wasn't at the forefront her personality. It seemed like Jill was riding high and then the Josh "scandal" happened. It seemed to really rattled Derick where he didn't know how to handle things so off to SCA it was. Jill's insecurity has been very evident, I think, since then. She's still cocky at times, but it almost seems like a need for validation (such as downplaying Jessa's post-birth hemorrhaging and constantly talking about how nauseous she is). To me, Jill seems more insecure than ever. Jessa, on the other hand, seems like she's tamed that cockiness/superiority through marriage and motherhood and is more secure with herself as an individual outside of the Duggars. 

 

 

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Sobeknofret
7 hours ago, JesSky03 said:

I think others on here have been very kind to you in their responses but I'm not sure how kind I can be. I almost didn't respond because your comment makes me so incredibly angry. Who the hell are you to decide when someone has suffered through infertility long enough for it to be called a "struggle"? Have you been through it yourself? Have you experienced the pain that month after month after month of no pregnancy causes? Or finding out are you pregnant only for it to end in miscarriage? Do you have any idea the emotional, physical, and financial impacts of going through infertility testing? And then to find out there IS something wrong that may or may not be treatable, or they just have no fucking clue why are you can't pregnant/can't sustain a pregnancy? I'm guessing not because anyone who has been through it will tell you that no matter if its been 1,2,5, or 10 years- it is probably the most heartbreaking thing they have ever been through. People like you are the reason infertility and miscarriage are such hush hush topics. People like you are why women like me often feel like we have to suffer in silence. You have no right to shame any woman for her feelings regarding her infertility struggles. You do not get to put rules or restrictions on when a woman is allowed to be upset about her struggle with infertility. And I don't care that you didn't see Michael's blog before posting this comment. That is no excuse for the incredibly insensitive comments made above. 

+1000    Thank you. I was so angry, I wasn't sure I could even come close to being civil. You said exactly what I was feeling, and in a much more articulate way than I could have in the moment.  

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LovelyLuna

call me a monster but I am glad Michaela hasn’t started breeding arrows for her quiver. I would never wish infertility on anyone, and I agree its deviating. I want to be a mom desperately but I am waiting, because life. We have always know M and B were going to be strict and follow the awful Quiverful child training book to a T. Michaela said in a talking head that she thinks her mom is MOTY and wants to do everything she did.  Maybe g-d is telling them he doesn’t want anymore blanket trained brainwashed cut members. 

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Bad Wolf

It took 3 months to get pregnant with Wolf 1 and 4 with wolf 2. I know that's nothing, but they were the longest months of my life. 2 years when you're trying? That must be hell.

 

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LovelyLuna

gosh... my spelling is atrocious. sorry about that. 

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Jane M.
On 28/6/2017 at 7:40 PM, SayWhat said:

Regarding  Joy's Belly Poke....

Caught me completely by surprise.  I didn't have any issues with it.  Actually thought it was kinda of cute.  Most of the Duggar interactions are so sterile so to see that interaction gave me hope for  some genuine affection between  Joy and Austin's family.  YMMV.  

Yes! To me it looked very genuine as well, which is very rare to see within the Duggars. 

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singsingsing
6 hours ago, ThunderRolls said:

It seemed like Jill was riding high and then the Josh "scandal" happened. It seemed to really rattled Derick where he didn't know how to handle things so off to SCA it was. 

This is one of the biggest myths I see repeated here time and time again. Derick did not spirit Jill away to Central America because of the Josh scandal. They were already planning to go. It was going to be a plot point in the last season of 19K&C which never aired after the show was cancelled.

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WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?

@singsingsing--I always wonder if Joshgate 1.0 changed the Dillards' timetable for being missionaries in SCA. There's no way to know. Just idle curiousity on my part.

I may be giving them too much credit by thinking that they might have originally planned to prepare more thoroughly. :sigh:

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singsingsing
5 minutes ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

@singsingsing--I always wonder if Joshgate 1.0 changed the Dillards' timetable for being missionaries in SCA. There's no way to know. Just idle curiousity on my part.

I may be giving them too much credit by thinking that they might have originally planned to prepare more thoroughly. :sigh:

That's very true. As far as I know, there's no way to know if they were planning to go sooner or later - but they were definitely planning to go. And I totally agree that it's giving them way too much credit to assume they originally planned to prepare more thoroughly, haha.

Edited by singsingsing
still can't type
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QuiverFullofBooks
3 hours ago, LovelyLuna said:

Maybe g-d is telling them he doesn’t want anymore blanket trained brainwashed cut members. 

I was really tempted to downvote this because I feel so bad for Michael. But yeah, maybe that is what He's saying.

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Kaylo

Regarding Michaela - it took me two years to get pregnant with my first. Every single month, you feel a loss. Every month.

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shesinsane

Late to the party, I just watched the episode tonight. At the end of the episode, Jim Bob brings some of the kids (girls and a few boys) over to the Seewald's house. Grandma Duggar meets her 7th great grandchild and they all line up for a group picture. In the front row Cousin Amy holds Josie. In the middle row Jessa holds Henry. In the back corner Ben holds Spurgeon and Spurgeon bats his father's face.

I'm sure when he adjusts to Henry's being there, he's going to be a great big brother. But teaching a kid sharing and patience is difficult enough without tv cameras and Jesus watching your every move. I wish them luck.   

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PainfullyAware
On 2017-6-28 at 4:37 PM, Georgiana said:

 This is in line with sentiments she has ALWAYS expressed, and while we can doubt how much choice she has in the matter, to disregard EVERYTHING she has self-reported entirely is to disregard her as a person

This is a really interesting discussion about the agency of a person in an oppressive culture. It reminds me of an example from colonial Kenya when the British administrators banned female genital cutting in a province. In response, a mass movement of young women started in which they would individually or in small groups go into the wilderness and circumcise themselves. To them, the ban was against them achieving adulthood and being full members of their communities. Self-circumcision was an act of bravery and rebellion against the colonial oppressors. Of course, it also reinforced the traditional patriarchy of their culture. 

You can have agency and be oppressed at the same time. I don't know anything about Michael Bates but I would give her the benefit of the doubt that she sincerely wants to start a family. I do think it takes away from her agency to assume we know best and tell her that life would be better without having a horde of kids. We can safely assume it will be hard for her to reach the full status of a woman in her culture without being a mother.

Beyond Michael's wishes for herself and her family, though, is the bigger question about the role of women in her religion/culture. Clearly it's unequal and patriarchal. The best thing is to explain clearly why we value equality, expanding women's roles into all the areas they restrict, and freedom of choice. We want every woman (and gender) to fully realize their talents, and contribute to their greatest potential, according to their own conscience. That's the exact reason not to prescribe to Michael Bates that infertility is the best thing for her, when what she wants is to start a family.

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Shadoewolf

I've had more miscarriages since the age of 19 than most people can imagine due to a blood clotting disorder like Erins. So shots into my stomach 3 times a day for multiple pregnancies where 2 made it and the rest didn't. Plus a short luteal phase which required Clomid and Progesterone. Multiple trans-vag ultrasounds, HSG's checking for tube blockages, sperm count and motility studies for my ex. Blood draws that had to done through my hands and feet because my arms were too blown out.  Infertility can strip away every iota of pride and faith that you have. 

Unless a person has dealt with infertility themselves, they have no idea what those who do are going through. You can feel bad for them, sympathize/ empathize, but never truly understand. Then to try and assign a timeframe and assign a value that makes for a legitimate struggle..its obscene. Then you add in a culture like that of the Bates, it had to take some real strength and courage for Michael to have come forward the way she did. I'm gonna step back for a bit before I rant anymore.

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allthegoodnamesrgone

I wonder what these type of people think about fertility. If they can't do anything to prevent, can they do anything to conceive? Wouldn't fertility treatment be against what God wants?  I'm thinking about this as a literal comparison.  They all always say they will have as many children as the Lord blesses them with, but if they are infertile does this mean that God does not want them to have kids at all? Or do they do fertility treatments? If they do those then why would BC be considered bad?  I realize I'm asking a circular question that I know the answer too. I just find it amusing that a quiverful family would seek fertility treatment when they claim they are leaving the number of children they have up to God. 

I need to add this, I don't begrudge anyone who seeks fertility treatments for what ever reason they do, having children is a personal choice, and if someone wants a child I fully support any and all options they go through to become pregnant. I'm not saying God made them infertile because they have shitty beliefs, I know  that isn't how it works and no matter how shitty those beliefs are if a child is wanted and a child cannot be had it is a sad thing.

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ThunderRolls
9 hours ago, singsingsing said:

This is one of the biggest myths I see repeated here time and time again. Derick did not spirit Jill away to Central America because of the Josh scandal. They were already planning to go. It was going to be a plot point in the last season of 19K&C which never aired after the show was cancelled.

I guess I didn't phrase this well - I know they were planning on going to CA since they spoke about it on the show/social media, but I've always felt like they ended up going sooner than they had originally planned.  At least, that's how it has appeared to me since it seemed a little haphazard with how/when they left. 

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Carm_88
7 minutes ago, ThunderRolls said:

I guess I didn't phrase this well - I know they were planning on going to CA since they spoke about it on the show/social media, but I've always felt like they ended up going sooner than they had originally planned.  At least, that's how it has appeared to me since it seemed a little haphazard with how/when they left. 

I feel like you're giving them too much credit as @singsingsing has already said. The Duggars have never been known for thinking things through or planning. So I imagine that they were going anyway and were expecting a lot of TLC help and the funding was pulled. Hence, the massive grifting. Now they are still there, still trying to convince people that they are converting heathens to Jesus. 

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ThunderRolls
2 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

I feel like you're giving them too much credit as @singsingsing has already said. The Duggars have never been known for thinking things through or planning. So I imagine that they were going anyway and were expecting a lot of TLC help and the funding was pulled. Hence, the massive grifting. Now they are still there, still trying to convince people that they are converting heathens to Jesus. 

I'm a little confused as to how I'm giving them too much credit? Are you saying that no matter when they went to SCA, it would have been haphazard? I definitely wouldn't argue with that. I just think the timing was sooner than was originally intended. I definitely think Jill was all for it because she didn't understand what she was getting into. 

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Carm_88
3 minutes ago, ThunderRolls said:

 I just think the timing was sooner than was originally intended. I definitely think Jill was all for it because she didn't understand what she was getting into. 

Perhaps it was a bit sooner, but they had already filmed the telling the family that they were going, as stated. So it probably wouldn't have been that far off. I would assume that TLC would have wanted the move and the teary goodbyes to be that same season. 

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ThunderRolls
Just now, Carm_88 said:

I would assume that TLC would have wanted the move and the teary goodbyes to be that same season. 

I agree. It definitely seemed like they were building it up for a plot point for the show. My own interpretation was that based on Josh's sexual perversions coming out, Derick's surgery and dental work, and Izzy being a baby they went sooner (and maybe even longer) than intended. It seemed like they continued to stay there (going back and forth) because they had gotten themselves in too deep. It was just weird timing, but then again, I don't think like a Duggar so it might have all just made perfect sense to them! 

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Italiangirl

Derick remind me in some way the oldest Demelza's brother from Pokdark...all this pushing into God, maybe i'm just seeing Duggar everywhere. 

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melon
46 minutes ago, Italiangirl said:

Derick remind me in some way the oldest Demelza's brother from Pokdark...all this pushing into God, maybe i'm just seeing Duggar everywhere. 

I love that series Poldark!I have to wait until October,here.

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