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1 hour ago, Million Children For Jesus said:

I can't believe anyone thinks Jessa is likable. She's such a troll to me. Snarky, self-righteous, married to a hate spewing mouth breather, shacked up in Grandma's house, popping babies out on the couch for the "Christian" alt-right cause, and I think her frequent IG posting has more to do with self-absorption than branding.  Not a day of real education. Not a day of real employment. I think she's vile, and I don't care if her kids are cute. They are being raised in the same brand of hate. That's not cute to me. Benessa has never left the Duggar safety net or attempted anything on their own in life, but yet they preach. Gross.

I think you have some valid points about Jessa. She is definitely self-absorbed, but I do think that having her children is helping her to become less so over time. She is a better mom than Michelle is (albeit she doesn't have 19 kids yet either so time will tell). Her take to motherhood has honestly surprised me because those are the moments where I feel like she is the most genuine and doesn't have her guards up.

And yes, she is quite self-righteous, but really all of the Duggars are, so it isn't necessarily fair to single her out (even though some of her posts leave me reeling). Ditto for her living situation. Josh and Jill are just as dependent imho, and time will tell with Jinger and Joy (they seem to have husbands who can better provide for them, but I thought that about Derrick a few years ago too).

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15 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

That might have been the only day for a while that "worked". 

That crossed my mind, too.

Thank you for posting the link to Michael's blog post. I only recently started watching the Bates, and I watch them the same way I watch the Duggars. (As background noise with frequent fast forwarding.) I wasn't sure if Michael was actively trying to get pregnant or was low key, discreetly, holding off for awhile in order to finish school.

I heard comments about "how sad" they were that Michael wasn't pregnant yet, but they were vague comments, so I couldn't tell if it was sad in a facetious way, or sad because she was actually trying.

I've had people call me sad for things that don't make me sad, like not talking to a certain family member. "How sad." It's not sad. At all. It's wonderful. So I didn't read too much into their "sad" comments.

I did catch a moment when she said something to the effect that having nieces and nephews didn't make her sad. She was excited for each one. 

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I agree that a birthday and a wedding on the same day is not a big deal.    Every birthday party we attended has been on a weekend.   We have celebrated our 40 anniversarys on the actual day, we never saved it for the weekend.

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Regarding  Joy's Belly Poke....

Caught me completely by surprise.  I didn't have any issues with it.  Actually thought it was kinda of cute.  Most of the Duggar interactions are so sterile so to see that interaction gave me hope for  some genuine affection between  Joy and Austin's family.  YMMV.  

 

 

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It's not always as binary as fertility issues our BC either - sometimes there's a grey zone. I've always been a Michaela - desperate to the point of pain to be a mummy. Sadly Mr MIO and I met when I was within the window where the hospital were saying, well between PCOS, complications, everything else, this one (I got pregnant onbc again) HAS to be the last. We give you roughly 35% survival each. I lost that baby and we came to the point where the only sensible course of action was he got sterilised. It's a sad thing, but we live on and he's worth it though. The weird thing is, after the first newness, folks seem to forget the pain. - like with our wedding: we don't want to do confetti, top tier... any of those traditions for ferti!ity as it's just too painful. Among the responses we've had (which folks feel is appropriate evidently, or they wouldn't say it), there's been: "I thought you guys were child free by choice / but you guys are sterile, not infertile / you don't get to be SD about that. You chose it...

Easiest way not to add to someone else's pain: talk about something else.

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2 minutes ago, MadeItOut said:

It's not always as binary as fertility issues our BC either - sometimes there's a grey zone. I've always been a Michaela - desperate to the point of pain to be a mummy. Sadly Mr MIO and I met when I was within the window where the hospital were saying, well between PCOS, complications, everything else, this one (I got pregnant onbc again) HAS to be the last. We give you roughly 35% survival each. I lost that baby and we came to the point where the only sensible course of action was he got sterilised. It's a sad thing, but we live on and he's worth it though. The weird thing is, after the first newness, folks seem to forget the pain. - like with our wedding: we don't want to do confetti, top tier... any of those traditions for ferti!ity as it's just too painful. Among the responses we've had (which folks feel is appropriate evidently, or they wouldn't say it), there's been: "I thought you guys were child free by choice / but you guys are sterile, not infertile / you don't get to be SD about that. You chose it...

Easiest way not to add to someone else's pain: talk about something else.

Those people don't belong at your wedding then. <3

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24 minutes ago, MadeItOut said:

Sadly we're related to most of them :(

Elope!

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1 hour ago, nst said:

first i read it as pooping babies on the couch 

but the popping babies on the couch made my day - do we think there was a sheet under her?

It there wasn't no one would ever want to sit on that couch.  Was she on the couch it looked to me like she was in the bedroom.  Didn't Anna have Mac on the couch? We know Michael was born on the toilet and Marcus was born at a birthing center. 

1 hour ago, SayWhat said:

Regarding  Joy's Belly Poke....

Caught me completely by surprise.  I didn't have any issues with it.  Actually thought it was kinda of cute.  Most of the Duggar interactions are so sterile so to see that interaction gave me hope for  some genuine affection between  Joy and Austin's family.  YMMV.  

Joy seems to be genuinely more touchy feely than her siblings in general, she also seems more, I don't know, outgoing, free spirited, less reserved or something than her siblings.  Her Si, and Jason, & Jed & Jer a bit too all seem more like this. Perhaps being in the middle of so many kids they got more lost in the shuffle than the older and younger ones, and weren't as strictly monitored and less JTTH'd and Alterted into submission.  

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37 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

It there wasn't no one would ever want to sit on that couch.  Was she on the couch it looked to me like she was in the bedroom.  

if you look at it really closely the window in the living room had the same blind.  So in my expert opinion she was in the living room on the couch where the windows were behind her.  Again i hope she had some type of mat under her because she seems to be always sitting there.  I think also she didn't want to be in the bedroom because Spurgeon was right near there perhaps in his crib in the same room. 

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46 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

Joy seems to be genuinely more touchy feely than her siblings in general, she also seems more, I don't know, outgoing, free spirited, less reserved or something than her siblings.  Her Si, and Jason, & Jed & Jer a bit too all seem more like this. Perhaps being in the middle of so many kids they got more lost in the shuffle than the older and younger ones, and weren't as strictly monitored and less JTTH'd and Alterted into submission.  

The middle kids seemed to have the most sister mom parenting as well. And each older girl had 3-4 kids. If the sister moms were realitivly good mini-mommies so to speak I could see it leading them to be more affectionate than we see the older ones being. That may be a factor, although I never really saw jinger as a super lovey sister mom. Jana and Jill seemed the warmest, Jessa seemed strict but close with her little's in a tough love way but jinger I kinda got the impression she just did what she had to. I could be way off base though, I have never watched with Intent to look for that.

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So, My thoughts on everything I just read:

    Jessa is likeable to me because I like her trolling personality. She has snark, She has some say of what is going on in her house, She has really taken to the whole mom thing as far as I can tell, and I can see, under all the fundy brainkilling that has happened to her over the years, the normal maturing of someone in their 20's. She isn't as cocky as she used to be, probably because she is beginning to know herself and who she wants to be in her bubble of the world.  She isn't bossing around her preachafarian husband around because I feel she has found a balance in living with someone. She is obviously trying to keep her shit together for the sake of her family, and considering who her family is, thats comendable.  I wouldn't say that she is like, squeezy hug all the time likeable, but I like what she is making of herself in what cannot be an easy family situation. I feel like I was all over the place with this one, sorry.

Jill. Oh Jill. I think that in any situation little Jilly Muffin grew up in, she would still be the socially awkward, too perky too early in the morning, one upping to be cool Jill that she is today. It's just that personality. I think Jill is very uncertain of herself. Something has stunted her in some way that she is having a hard time finding her own identity in her mass of sisters, so she tries to find ways to indentify with them. It comes off as super annoying, but hey, as a socially awkward person myself, I would have to say that socially awkward people are annoying.  I feel like if she got a chance to really one in on her midwifery  instead of being the next Michelle, she would grow into her own, but we all know that wont happen, and her skills will in turn, be a cool party trick for pregnant sisters and friends.

Joy is comfortable with her FIL. I see this as a good thing as these families believe that marriage is forever. She is calling him dad, poking him, making little jokes. There must be something about this dad that we all believe to be strict, that has a soft heart for his kids and their future spouses.  Honestly if he is anything like my dad, being a grandpa probably mellowed him out.  I like that Joy is able to be comfortable and herself around the people who are going to form her new family.  

Michael. I saved this one for last. My husband and I had always planned on being the kidless couple that traveled and spoiled our nieces and nephews. These hopes dashed when we found out about the new human crashing into the world that is my oldest son.  My sisters have always wanted kids. My irish twin especially wanted a huge family. She found out roughly 4 years ago that she is unable to have children naturally.  Its heartbreaking to watch her struggle with the rest of us having children. She is my kids most beloved aunt, she is the one they are willed to if anything happens to my husband and I, but watching the look on her face when the rest of us have more and more children kills me.  I feel for Michael , being the girl who wants the kids, but instead has to watch everyone else become parents. I don't think she needs therapy. I think she needs respect, and being quiverful, I don't think she will ever get that. 

Okay I am done with my word spew. lol

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@SadieJane You said exactly what I wanted to say about Jill, but couldn't find the right words. If she had the opportunity to take a Home Health Aide program, or Certified Nursing Assistant (CNA) program, AKA CNP, or an LVN program, I think she would do well. She doesn't have to work if that's too radical of an idea, but it would improve her self-esteem and she could use it for ministry work stateside or teaching home health care and first aid in Danger America. That's way more useful than piñata making. That would be a plotline I would like to see, but alas, I know I'm only dreaming. 

 

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2 hours ago, nst said:

if you look at it really closely the window in the living room had the same blind.  So in my expert opinion she was in the living room on the couch where the windows were behind her.  Again i hope she had some type of mat under her because she seems to be always sitting there.  I think also she didn't want to be in the bedroom because Spurgeon was right near there perhaps in his crib in the same room. 

I used to assist at home births. Midwives are equipped to accommodate a laboring woman wherever she ends up- no doubt there were chux pads under her and on the floor. 

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4 hours ago, MadeItOut said:

Easiest way not to add to someone else's pain: talk about something else.

Amen.  Regardless of the source of the other's pain, just move on in the conversations, make no assumptions and don't probe for info you really don't need ... other than for gossip.

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The best part of this episode, other than the actual birth, was the sign on the counter next to Josie: "If you're not barefoot, you're overdressed." I swear, someone at TLC must've put that there just for us after all the talk about dirty feet and flip-flops.

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I thought it was innocent and sweet. Showed a closeness and affability between them. 
Yeah, most grown women don't sort of tickle or grab at their father in law's bellies except as you say, to playfully poke them or something. But she's very young and I was grateful to see some semblance of normal, physical closeness there. Because these kids have been raised so repressed. Normal physical affection has been deemed dangerous to them. 
So this seemed playful and relaxed and showed she may be getting a different experience finally, showing that affection is a good thing. 
I liked it. 

I felt the same way. It seems like the Forsyths genuinely love Joy and the dad treated her like a daughter and she treats him like a dad. I liked it too.
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I still don't care for Jessa. She is the type of person I avoid like the plague.

i listened to her spiel on fashionably fundie or whatever it was and found her to be extremely arrogant and ignorant. 

She has done nothing in her life to earn the honor of speaking at a conference.  Her ideas were out of context, her examples were poor, and she again used fear based mongering of being turned away at the pearly gates for having a wrong attitude about being dressed morally. 

I just can't give recognition to somebody who recites rhetoric that has been passed down from one poorly educated person to another. 

To me hearing her tone, aggressive manor, and pure ignorance to not even diligently study her subject just tells me she is arrogant. She knows it all and doesn't need to put effort into finding the correct context or doctrine.

She is an adult. I am tired of people giving her a pass because of her upbringing, her family, her fame, her kids are cute, she seems to like motherhood, etc. 

Like like the rest of us she is now accountable for her choices. She can choose to research anything she wants.  She doesn't have to be what her parents say, no more than any of us who come from bad situations do. At some point you gotta do better. She is resting on laurels that are not even her own. She is resting on her fame, she is resting on so many other things that have been laid out for her that have nothing to do with her personhood  today and yet she is claiming glory from them. It is the epitome of arrogance. 

At least her doofus husband is Trying to do something on his own to take credit for. 

I have zero respect for Jessa. She's nothing but thinks she's something. And she is old enough to make changes if she really wanted to.

Jill?  Whatever. She has the woe is me, martyred missionary thing down pat. She begs for money at will. She has probably more money in her account than we do after 30 years of slaving away at work.  She can jet set where ever she wants on a whim. 

I don't feel sorry for these fundies one bit. And I certainly don't like them.

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Elope!

We're very tempted! 

 

There are at least a lot of cool folks headed out too.

3 hours ago, joy2world said:

The best part of this episode, other than the actual birth, was the sign on the counter next to Josie: "If you're not barefoot, you're overdressed." I swear, someone at TLC must've put that there just for us after all the talk about dirty feet and flip-flops.

Ooo TLC leaving FJ easter eggs - cool!

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4 hours ago, Fluffy14 said:

She has the woe is me, martyred missionary thing down pat. She begs for money at will.

I think this whole asking for monetary donations thing is inherent in preacher/missionary circles. I read a woman's blog because I found it from a news story about her young daughter with cancer - she had a caringbridge page, which I read to keep up with the child (who's now 22 and healthy - she's a rare survivor of a horrific childhood cancer).

Anyway. She has written blog posts about wanting to go visit family, but saying she couldn't afford it. Within 20 minutes, she'd have a plane ticket in-hand from one of their parishioners (her husband is a fundie-light preacher). When their daughter graduated from high school, she needed a new laptop for college, so she started a gofundme for that, and they raised THREE TIMES the amount needed for the laptop. She explained that away by saying the child would need it for expenses.

They're very comfortable asking for money. Me? I'd be eating dirt sandwiches in the back yard and getting a second or third job. I only asked my parents for money ONE TIME after I was out on my own. I was humiliated to have to ask, and I paid them back within a year (it was a substantial amount).

 

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21 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

But she was engaged/courting when she said it, Jana was/is not. 

With the speed they work at in their family Jana could easily be pregnant nine months after Joys wedding. 

 

15 hours ago, amendgitan said:

But my question is, how much of Michael Bates' stated pain is actually political posturing? How much of her pain is really about status versus fertility? How much is truly about the anguish of a 27 year old who spent almost two decades raising her siblings, who is still childless after only two years of marriage?

Others have already said better things about Michaels situation but I want to say that two years of trying is a lot. Two years of trying while everyone (and it does feel like everyone) around you gets pregnant and have babies is heartbreaking.

When we failed our fifth IVF after 4,5 years of trying my best friend and my sister were both pregnant with their second child. My husbands brothers and best friends wifes were both pregnant as well. It was horrible. 

You try to be happy for them and you are. But then you go home and cry and it gets harder every month to smile. I broke down at work and cried in my bosses office after the fourth IVF. Wasn't really planning to tell him we were trying. But he was very supportive and genuinly happy for us two years later when Miniway was finally here. 

We had the choice to only tell the people we wanted to about it though. Michael doesn't have that choice. She has to out her problems because everyone is wondering and my standard answer to people I didn't want to tell ”I'm not sure I want children” definitly wouldn't work for her.

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3 hours ago, MadeItOut said:

The best part of this episode, other than the actual birth, was the sign on the counter next to Josie: "If you're not barefoot, you're overdressed." I swear, someone at TLC must've put that there just for us after all the talk about dirty feet and flip-flops.

I'd like to see this sign next time:

1 Timothy 5:8

"Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

Provide, not grift, not scam people who worked hard for their money into providing you with missioncation.

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Anyone who's watched Bringing Up Bates  can see just how much Micheal loves children. Any time she visits her family she picks up a baby and won't let anyone else near it. She's not putting on a show. It's who she is. Her post was very clear that fertility testing has shown there to be a problem getting pregnant and she is heartbroken. I think in their case even if certain treatments can help them become parents they may not do them as the treatments may go against their beliefs.

Since this is a Duggar thread I just want to say it's nice that Joy is so comfortable with Austin's dad despite his reputation of being very strict. Austin also seems to have affection for JB. He called him Pops (which is what the Duggars call him) twice while asking for Joy's hand.

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17 hours ago, amendgitan said:

Second, she is 27 and has been married a grand total of two years. To frame her state of childlessness as some grand "struggle" with fertility is totally ridiculous I think. 

Now if she was 39 and had been trying and doing treatments for 10 years, that I could understand. But it's been two years of marriage for God's sake. There is no crisis except the crisis of being fundie royalty yet not being on her second pregnancy by now. 

 

I think others on here have been very kind to you in their responses but I'm not sure how kind I can be. I almost didn't respond because your comment makes me so incredibly angry. Who the hell are you to decide when someone has suffered through infertility long enough for it to be called a "struggle"? Have you been through it yourself? Have you experienced the pain that month after month after month of no pregnancy causes? Or finding out are you pregnant only for it to end in miscarriage? Do you have any idea the emotional, physical, and financial impacts of going through infertility testing? And then to find out there IS something wrong that may or may not be treatable, or they just have no fucking clue why are you can't pregnant/can't sustain a pregnancy? I'm guessing not because anyone who has been through it will tell you that no matter if its been 1,2,5, or 10 years- it is probably the most heartbreaking thing they have ever been through. People like you are the reason infertility and miscarriage are such hush hush topics. People like you are why women like me often feel like we have to suffer in silence. You have no right to shame any woman for her feelings regarding her infertility struggles. You do not get to put rules or restrictions on when a woman is allowed to be upset about her struggle with infertility. And I don't care that you didn't see Michael's blog before posting this comment. That is no excuse for the incredibly insensitive comments made above. 

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1 hour ago, JesSky03 said:

Who the hell are you to decide when someone has suffered through infertility long enough for it to be called a "struggle"? Have you been through it yourself?

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for responding to this. I had actually responded but deleted everything because I was so flipping angry. She said she has 'relatives with infertility problems' (paraphrasing). I guess that makes her an expert and I guess she knows how it feels, because of that.

There is nothing in this world like trying to be happy for pregnant friends/family when all you want in the world is a baby.

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