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8 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

Absolutely agree with you on pretty much everything. I understand how annoying she can come across to many people. She's much more outgoing than some of her other siblings - combine that with the beliefs she was raised with and I absolutely see how annoying she can be and I don't hold that against anyone.

I forgot to add that tumblr is calling Jill arrogant because she said she and Israel can't wait to meet Derick's dad in Heaven. Idiot Jill, she doesn't know if they're  going to heaven. Every time I browse tumblr there are a ton of post hating Jill for minor, normal or imaginary things.

The only answer I have is Jessa likable, Jinger has everyone's hopes up,Joy is a newlywed(but she getting hate because "she just like Jill") Like I said Jill is a little annoying and I wish the Dillards would end their mission and grifting. Other than that, I can't name something I hate about Jill.

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If you have never experienced infertility, here's a handy chart on how to politely comment on "the struggle": 1.SHUT UP 2.SHUT UP 3. SHUT UP 4. SHUT UP 5. SHUT UP 6. SHUT

While I mostly agree with your sentiment, I think it's slightly cruel to be happy for Michael Bates since she has posted about how her failure to conceive is breaking her heart.  Despite wanting a sma

I'll say this: I was pretty stoked to hear Jeremy continually praise Jinger's intelligence. He looked really happy & proud of her, too. That's a wonderful thing for him to encourage.

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amendgitan
9 hours ago, Georgiana said:

While I mostly agree with your sentiment, I think it's slightly cruel to be happy for Michael Bates since she has posted about how her failure to conceive is breaking her heart. 

I was unaware she stated she's "heartbroken" and I sure wouldn't be gleeful about anyone's pain. But let me address that statement. 

First, such statements may be required in their culture to explain away the lack of children after two years of marriage.

I suspect some people are not totally aware of the intense importance of the Quiverful movement and the philosophy of Christian dominionism and sexist patriarchy in their culture. Everything revolves around creating soldiers for Christ. And relegating women to the status of stay at home child bearers. I think child bearing and controlling women's bodies and lives and sexuality that way, is probably the most important aspect of their lives. It is all centered on making kids, having kids and raising kids and limiting women's role to baby making machine. Really, birth control is outlawed by  religious patriarchies for one reason- to control women, especially their sexuality. 

So I don't think any of us can be certain of the sincerity of a statement made about childlessness in the context of their culture. In my opinion it amounts to a political statement that they have to make because so much energy in their sermons, celebrations, weddings and prayers is centered on the concept of not using family planning and of the importance of women's subservient role in the world and the lack of control over her own body. 

So for a fundie royalty daughter to not have conceived after two years with no proclamations about the distress of such a "predicament", and without chest beating cries of agonized desperation of the desire to have 12 kids by now, that brings shame on the family as a whole and risks the family's status in the Quiverful kingdom. 

They absolutely have to make such statements to reinforce and reify the cultural standards and their position in that world. For that reason I have to take such statements with a grain of salt. 

Second, she is 27 and has been married a grand total of two years. To frame her state of childlessness as some grand "struggle" with fertility is totally ridiculous I think. 

Now if she was 39 and had been trying and doing treatments for 10 years, that I could understand. But it's been two years of marriage for God's sake. There is no crisis except the crisis of being fundie royalty yet not being on her second pregnancy by now. 

But hell, for some people, it can take a while. And if they're as truly committed to "God's will" as they say, they'd be content to wait. I think it's likely status they're worried about. Not that they don't have a baby in their house by now. 

But let's say that despite 17 years or so of endless drudgery raising and caring for her parents' passel of children, Michael truly is in unbearable need of a baby right now, after a mere two years of marriage. Well, two things. One, in context, she probably needs therapy more than she needs a baby.

Two, the fact that she is without a baby for the early years of her marriage will likely result in a stronger and happier marriage and more of a partnership with her husband, than any of her sisters, which will positively benefit her future family. 

Finally, yes, I am condescendingly casting judgment on her culture. Because while I believe in a woman's right to choose - how many pregancies or no pregnancies or carrying pregnancies to term or not- the key word is "choose". And I firmly believe the very essence of their culture removes all choice from women like Michael Bates.

For me, an analogy would be saying that a young girl kidnapped by a predator and made his slave, who upon discovery as a young woman denies she is a victim due to Stockholm syndrome, and claims she wants to stay with him, actually has agency and is making a choice. 

So while I will fight for the legal "right" of the likes of Michael Bates to have as many kids as her body will tolerate, I do so with the understanding that in every patriarchal culture, when birth control is made accessible and/or suddenly allowable, the female population invariably rushes to get on it and be able to finally have control over their reproduction and their bodies.

And I do so with the belief that women like Michael are without much agency at all. And thus the right to choose in situations like hers really becomes really the right for the patriarchy to choose for her. 

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NewOrleansLady
16 hours ago, itqitc said:

I loved the donation/gift bag idea they had at Jessa's shower.  

Did Joy playfully poke Austin's dad in the belly?  That's got to be against the rules?! I don't get the jerk vibe from his dad that others seem to get. 

My question, too.  They (Austin's dad and Joy ) seem to really enjoy being with each other.  I kinda feel that he (Austin's dad ) left those two alone for short periods of time so that they could have some free speech and hugs and kisses before the wedding.

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amendgitan
1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

But blaming her for something outside her control like Joy's wedding month? Or commenting about how she's such a slob or clearly an attention whore for her attire at Joy's wedding? Acting like she's the worst person ever for asking Jinger a question that's completely normal in their world and that Jill herself was asked after she got married, quite possibly by Jinger? That I don't get as much.

ETA: @GeorgianaForgot this! 

I'm with you on blaming Jill for everything and accusing her of being an attention whore. I think she enjoys the martyrdom of being a missionary wife in a developing world nation but I don't think she's purposefully trying to upstage her sisters or whatever. To blame her for all this stuff seems silly. 

Also, the question IS logical in her culture. That's what is gross to me. The meaning behind it. I can't be pissed at a person who was raised to accept and act out the dictates of her culture. 

As to the Michael Bates situation, I'm a pretty empathetic person. I am never gleeful over anyone's pain and mental anguish always makes me feel very sad for the person experiencing it. 

But my question is, how much of Michael Bates' stated pain is actually political posturing? How much of her pain is really about status versus fertility? How much is truly about the anguish of a 27 year old who spent almost two decades raising her siblings, who is still childless after only two years of marriage? 

I don't think those are unreasonable or even unfair questions under the circumstances. 

As you can see, I'm not close to a fan of their culture. And I'm highly suspicious of the sincerity of loaded statements they may make. 

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allthegoodnamesrgone

Re Jill, I flip flop from feeling badly for her to being totally annoyed with her.  She can come across as a perpetual victim at times (if that makes sense)  then other times her inability to be an adult, and I personally think she lacks a lot of common sense. That combined makes for a very annoying personality. I have an old friend that is a like her in ways, she's super sweet and you can't help but enjoy being around her, but she's a dingbat, scatter brained, she makes a lot of her own problems by being scatter brained and common sense is something she has trouble getting a handle on.  Some times you love her other times you want to shaker and ask her wtf is wrong with her. 

As for Joy & her now FIL, yeah her and Austin were given time alone I think as well.  I don't think for a second that kiss at the alter was their 1st, they knew what they were doing, and if I remember there was no talk of 'sharing their 1st kiss" like with Smugger and Jill & Jessa.  While I think the Forsyth's are drowning in some form of Fundy Kool Aid, I don't think it is Gothardism/ATI/IBLP/Quiverfull type fundydum. 

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amendgitan
17 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

  While I think the Forsyth's are drowning in some form of Fundy Kool Aid, I don't think it is Gothardism/ATI/IBLP/Quiverfull type fundydum. 

Do you think the Duggars would associate that closely with a family that isn't of their type of fundyism? I don't. Unless they're related already by blood or marriage. 

If the Forsyths are IFB we have our answer. I'm off to look. 

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SapphireSlytherin
4 hours ago, amendgitan said:

Poor things. I'm happy for Michael Bates- that she gets to enjoy herself and get to know herself and her husband for awhile before being mired down in pregnancies and child-rearing. 

That's about the most cruel thing you could say to a woman who wants a baby. How horrid of you, no matter how you try to explain it away.

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VelociRapture

@amendgitanI completely agree on Jill. I think she absolutely deserves all the snark she gets for their fake mission trip and that, if she is unhappy, then she does bear some responsibility for that. And each, it is fairly gross that the question is so normal in head world... but I can't hate on it either.

As for Michael, I respect your right to your opinion. I'm not a fan of their beliefs either and I've frequently been pretty vocal about that (along with not immediately trusting what they claim.) When it comes to Michael though... I do get the feeling that she is being sincere and genuine. Her blog post made it clear that there is something deeper going on, something that may not be treatable. If that's the case then I do feel very deeply for them both. And even if it isn't something untreatable, I still feel deep sympathy for them regardless. I've never experienced infertility, but I imagine it must be excruciatingly painful to long for a child that may never arrive.

I'm torn because I don't like seeing innocent kids born into this cult. But I also hate to see people obviously in pain as well. That's why I tend to simply hope that the Keilens manage to find happiness and fulfillment as their lives are at this moment. And if they can't, then I hope they find the strength to take the steps that would allow them to feel happiness and fulfillment.

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allthegoodnamesrgone
1 hour ago, amendgitan said:

So I don't think any of us can be certain of the sincerity of a statement made about childlessness in the context of their culture. In my opinion it amounts to a political statement that they have to make because so much energy in their sermons, celebrations, weddings and prayers is centered on the concept of not using family planning and of the importance of women's subservient role in the world and the lack of control over her own body. 

So for a fundie royalty daughter to not have conceived after two years with no proclamations about the distress of such a "predicament", and without chest beating cries of agonized desperation of the desire to have 12 kids by now, that brings shame on the family as a whole and risks the family's status in the Quiverful kingdom. 

They absolutely have to make such statements to reinforce and reify the cultural standards and their position in that world. For that reason I have to take such statements with a grain of salt. 

Second, she is 27 and has been married a grand total of two years. To frame her state of childlessness as some grand "struggle" with fertility is totally ridiculous I think. 

I don't buy this, and I don't care how long or how young you are, if you want a baby and it hasn't happened in 2 years, there is something amiss, and it sucks for the people involved. Saying she's only 27 and its ONLY 2 years is like saying your 85 and have cancer who cares if your dying, your old don't worry about it. If she'd been married 6 months, I'd be like slow your roll there, miss impatient, however, its been 2 years, so by any standard she has an infertility problem.  Being forced to wait at any age sucks, for years sucks.  They can clearly afford to support a child they are clearly old enough to handle a child and clearly want one.  I don't think she has to say "I'm infertile that is why I don't have kids at this point", a simple the "the Lord has not impressed on us the desire to have a child at this time, we are doing other things for him and believe that is where he wants us right now" I think even in their world that wouldn't be totally frowned on, it might be looked at side eyed or as strange but she wouldn't be shunned for it. 

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Daisy0322

@amendgitan I am In agreement with @SapphireSlytherin And @VelociRapture and many others: no matter how much I disagree with someone's lifestyle I would never wish that kind of emotional pain on someone. She doesn't have the education to write that passionately about something that she's not deeply feeling IMO, for one. And two, even though this cult has a lot to disagree with, its members are still people. They have emotions that are just as real as ours are. They love their children just like we do. They may not have many choices that they are aware of as far as aspirations go, but that doesn't make them less important to them. 

I wasn't forced into it but I can relate to always wanting a baby. I've looked forward to being a mother since I picked out my first baby doll at a garage sale when I was 4/5. It doesn't mean I don't have other accomplishments but the only thing "wrong" about her having this strong of a desire for a baby is if it isn't actually her choice. But, back to my first point, I believe she actually wants this for herself.

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amendgitan
3 minutes ago, Daisy0322 said:

@amendgitan I am In agreement with @SapphireSlytherin And @VelociRapture and many others: no matter how much I disagree with someone's lifestyle I would never wish that kind of emotional pain on someone. She doesn't have the education to write that passionately about something that she's not deeply feeling IMO, for one. And two, even though this cult has a lot to disagree with, its members are still people. They have emotions that are just as real as ours are. They love their children just like we do. They may not have many choices that they are aware of as far as aspirations go, but that doesn't make them less important to them. 

 

Again, as I have stated, I would never wish that pain on anyone either. I am very aware that, despite my abhorrence of their culture, these are real people with real emotions. But, I guess I am asking that people consider that passion may be there but not in the way that you think. She may subconsciously feel very passionate about her political message being upheld. She may feel passionately about not losing status because she hasn't had two kids in two years. 

When it comes to their reproduction, it is not that they "may not have many choices that they are aware of as far as aspirations go", they have no choices at all when it comes to reproduction.

I believe that they find their lifestyle to be extremely important. I would never say that the facets of their lifestyle are "less important to them". Nope. In fact, I think their lifestyle is so damn important to them, that they are intent on taking away my legal right to my choices so that my lifestyle will mirror theirs. And while I don't believe women have agency in that culture, thus that they don't actually have choices when it comes to whether they will reproduce or not,  I will fight for the legal right of extreme fundies like them to life the way they choose, with the exception of child abuse, domestic violence, or sexual assault, all of which is endemic in their culture. 
 

But that doesn't mean I won't criticize the way they live. The negative ramifications of the culture to women and children are profound. 

 

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amendgitan
15 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I don't buy this, and I don't care how long or how young you are, if you want a baby and it hasn't happened in 2 years, there is something amiss, and it sucks for the people involved. Saying she's only 27 and its ONLY 2 years is like saying your 85 and have cancer who cares if your dying, your old don't worry about it. If she'd been married 6 months, I'd be like slow your roll there, miss impatient, however, its been 2 years, so by any standard she has an infertility problem.  Being forced to wait at any age sucks, for years sucks.  They can clearly afford to support a child they are clearly old enough to handle a child and clearly want one.  I don't think she has to say "I'm infertile that is why I don't have kids at this point", a simple the "the Lord has not impressed on us the desire to have a child at this time, we are doing other things for him and believe that is where he wants us right now" I think even in their world that wouldn't be totally frowned on, it might be looked at side eyed or as strange but she wouldn't be shunned for it. 

Yeah, as someone who has dealt with cancer in family members, and have witnessed family having fertility issues, the idea that a person who hasn't had a kid in two years of trying is analogous to an elderly person having cancer and who cares if you're dying, doesn't seem to be very logical.  

Also, while she may be in low percentile that don't conceive within a year or two of unprotected sex, I don't think you can diagnose her as having a fertility problem just yet, (he might be the one with low sperm count by the way. Of course it may also be true that she's having an issue like her sister had, but worse. I don't know). 

Finally, and respectfully, anyone who thinks these people can make any statement  like "the Lord has not impressed on us the desire to have a child at this time, we are doing other things for him and believe that is where he wants us right now" without being frowned upon, should consider this:  Andrea Yates was from the same culture. She and her husband chose repeated psychosis and risk of Yates hurting herself or her kids, over simple family planning.  It is an extreme belief that's crucial to their identity and belief system. It's everything. 

52 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

That's about the most cruel thing you could say to a woman who wants a baby. How horrid of you, no matter how you try to explain it away.

While it may not be the most cruel thing someone could say to someone who wants a baby, I do agree it would be a cruel thing to say. Happily, I didn't say it to her.  I also was unaware of her blog post before I wrote that. As I have explained. 

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The Wanderer
52 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

If you want a child, NO MATTER WHY, NO MATTER YOUR AGE, and NO MATTER YOUR MARITAL STATUS, and cannot have one...that hurts.  A lot.  I cannot snark on any person for that.  

I absolutely agree with this statement.

One of my best friends was born with Turner syndrome, but she did not learn she would never be able to conceive a child of her own until she was about 13 or so. Despite her young age, her pain at that time was very real. Today, she has accepted her reality, and I definitely think she will adopt one day and be an amazing mom. But that certainly doesn't undermine her original struggle with this reality.

Michael's pain is heartbreaking. When I consider their culture and upbringing, I can't even imagine the degree of pain she is facing. Since her wedding, all three of Michael's married siblings have had their second children. She has to deal with this pain every single day, and my hope is for her to either find a way to conceive or to find peace.

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Snarkle Motion
3 hours ago, SuhrEnity said:

I don't understand that. We all did things like this to my dad all the time and we're all close enough to our father's in law that we link arms with them, tease them about their growing bellies by poking them when they say their hungry and squeeze their cheeks affectionately. What is innapropriate about that? Maybe her father in law and new family are more affectionate than her birth family? Maybe she and her father in law have gotten close and in him she sees the father she never got in JimBoob

Normally its not automatically weird but given the Josh scandal this was surprising to me. This family doesn't let little girls sit on dads or brothers laps. Tickling an adult male in-law when you are not yet allowed to front hug or hold hands with his son until marriage is bizarre to me. 

It concerns me because this playfulness/tickling and not knowing where healthy boundaries are is often how people start to be groomed to be taken advantage of. Not saying that's the case. But historically her family hasn't always taught her healthy rules about boundaries and what is appropriate behavior, especially from family members. 

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Dandruff
19 hours ago, calimojo said:

so quick question.  I read on here often that people think Ben acts stoned much of the time, and I have to agree he does.  But does anyone seriously believe the guy is truly lit up?  Wouldn't that violate some fundie rule?

I suspect it's a combination of allergy medicine and his IQ.

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@amendgitan I'm going to guess that you don't follow the Bates very closely and that you haven't struggled with TTC( trying to conceive). I've been a big Bates follower for years. I truly believe Michael wants children and lots of them.  Her every action in the past 8 or 9 yrs since the Bates were introduced have shown how much she loves children and wants them ( as opposed to Alyssa who has not been shy about not wanting a very large famiy). She has also shown herself to be very private and this post was most likely difficult for her to write. 

I have struggled to conceive and the roller coaster of emotions,  no matter if that struggle is months or years, is real. Hell, on fertility boards you see frequent posts about the TWW( two week wait). Those 2 weeks go by like molasses.  The anxiety, the depression, the joy at the thought that maybe, just maybe, this month is the month. I have never over analysed every twinge in my body more. Always calculating out what 9 months from today is.  Trying to not get your hopes up and to be calm this month, to not cry when your period comes, to be happy for your sister/friend/coworker who is preggo. I don't wish kids into this cult but I do wish peace for Michael and Brandon.  

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Georgiana
37 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I absolutely agree with this statement.

One of my best friends was born with Turner syndrome, but she did not learn she would never be able to conceive a child of her own until she was about 13 or so. Despite her young age, her pain at that time was very real.

My cousin also has Turner Syndrome.  While her case is more mild (mosaic) and she has received the best treatment available, she's still almost certainly unable to be able to carry a child to viability, if she managed to conceive at all.  Her parents were very upfront with her about that, and she's known this from a young age she would probably not have a successful pregnancy.  Still hurt.  And it still continues to hurt as she matures and begins to understand what infertility means for her as an adult woman.  

Fertility is very tied to our deeper selves.  Even people who know they don't want kids can struggle with the diagnosis of infertility because it suggests they are less viable or less of a "real" man/woman than their peers.  Women struggle when they naturally transition out of their fertile season of life, even if they already have all the kids they want.  Men who before never perceived an issue suffer a deep psychological blow upon learning they don't produce viable sperm.  

There are parts of the human experience that are rooted deep, deep within our primal selves.  Beyond the realm of language and reason.  Deep within our animal natures.  Fertility is one such thing.  The pain of infertility is not one that can be rationalized away or put truly into words.  It's deeper than that.  It exists somewhere in our core where there are no words.  It simply is.  And because of that, it transcends everything superficial: language, culture, environment. 

It's the sort of suffering that the Buddha talked about, the great equalizer, the pain that unites all humans and reminds us that we are all one species.  It's not something I want to Lori Alexander: that is use logic tricks and fancy words to trivialize.  Rather, I'd rather take the path of the Buddha and respond with compassion, because even though Michael and I have nearly nothing in common, we are still both humans.  And her pain is not a fundie pain.

It's a human one.  

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Million Children For Jesus

I can't believe anyone thinks Jessa is likable. She's such a troll to me. Snarky, self-righteous, married to a hate spewing mouth breather, shacked up in Grandma's house, popping babies out on the couch for the "Christian" alt-right cause, and I think her frequent IG posting has more to do with self-absorption than branding.  Not a day of real education. Not a day of real employment. I think she's vile, and I don't care if her kids are cute. They are being raised in the same brand of hate. That's not cute to me. Benessa has never left the Duggar safety net or attempted anything on their own in life, but yet they preach. Gross.

I detest Jill's baby talk, but she doesn't grate on my nerves like holier-than-thou Jessa, the Duggar's prized breeding stock. True, Jill is a misguided try-hard, people pleaser, without any direction or critical thinking skills. (I knew a lot of young women like that in my 20's. Most grew out of it.) I get it that she's the Duggar equivalent of a teacher's pet and those kids are annoying, but they're also sad, anxious, and desperate for acceptance. She is socially awkward, childlike, and flailing from a complete lack of guidance and without clear cut rules to follow. Somebody needs to tell that girl that part of being an adult is defining your own rules and boundaries. I thought that college educated Derick of the real world (not fundie) was going to facilitate that, but it turns out he wasn't really interested in Jill's well being. He wanted in on the Duggar Kool-Aid and is really just an opportunistic user who wanted in on the grifting, hate speech, and unemployment. What a disappointment.

The only nice thing I can say about Ben is that he isn't a disappointment. He always seemed one card short of a full deck, so although he's annoying, he isn't disappointing.

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KelseyAnn
7 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

 

Fertility is very tied to our deeper selves.  Even people who know they don't want kids can struggle with the diagnosis of infertility because it suggests they are less viable or less of a "real" man/woman than their peers.  Women struggle when they naturally transition out of their fertile season of life, even if they already have all the kids they want.

 

Amen! I have PCOS and while I'm only 23 I already feel like less a woman because of the lack of estrogen. Even not getting a period more than few times as a year used to make me feel like I was mannish freak. And while I know I more than likely don't want to have children, at least not biological, it still hurt to find out that even if I wanted biological kids I probably couldn't anyway. 

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Million Children For Jesus
3 hours ago, JoyJoy said:

Tumblr is  blaming her for Joy getting married in May("Jill didn't want to share her wedding month") 

With 19 kids and only 12 months in the year, someone is going to have to share.

Jinger got married on Spurgeon's first birthday. I think that's a little odd. I personally wouldn't have gotten married on one of my nieces or nephews birthdays because I'm close to them and wouldn't want to steal their thunder. I don't think kids want to spend their birthday at a wedding. Then what happens on the birthday/anniversary every year? Which do you go to? The kids birthday dinner or your anniversary dinner? If I wasn't as close to my family, I guess I wouldn't care, but we are close, we live close to each other, and we celebrate with family on the actual day. 

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Georgiana
13 minutes ago, Million Children For Jesus said:

With 19 kids and only 12 months in the year, someone is going to have to share.

Jinger got married on Spurgeon's first birthday. I think that's a little odd. I personally wouldn't have gotten married on one of my nieces or nephews birthdays because I'm close to them and wouldn't want to steal their thunder. I don't think kids want to spend their birthday at a wedding. Then what happens on the birthday/anniversary every year? Which do you go to? The kids birthday dinner or your anniversary dinner? If I wasn't as close to my family, I guess I wouldn't care, but we are close, we live close to each other, and we celebrate with family on the actual day. 

To each their own, but I wouldn't see it as an issue.  Weddings can be pretty tough to schedule, especially if your venue is limited in availability.  Jinger may not have had as much of a choice as we think.  That might have been the only day for a while that "worked". 

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MadeItOut
7 hours ago, sunshine said:

 

^^^This^^^ I did not know that Duggar's were touchy-feely type people. You know because of the whole Josh thing. 

That's a gesture I was once taught in a girl guides self defence course as a gentle 'you're more in my space than I'd like'. Could perhaps be something along those lines too (not suggesting anything untoward, but like we were taught, there doesn't have to be anything going on if you just aren't comfy).

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1 hour ago, Million Children For Jesus said:

 popping babies out on the couch

first i read it as pooping babies on the couch 

but the popping babies on the couch made my day - do we think there was a sheet under her?

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Four is Enough

Wedding on my birthday? Meh. But I'm not a person who's had a party every year, nor have I thrown one for my kids every year, so no need to get together for either the birthday or the anniversary.

 

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