Counting On, Season Four Part 4

[DillyDally]

11 hours ago, itqitc said:

Did Joy playfully poke Austin's dad in the belly?  That's got to be against the rules?! I don't get the jerk vibe from his dad that others seem to get. 

I was really surprised to see that as well, like "You're only supposed to side-hug your own dad but poking your future father-in-law in the belly while he is chaperoning you and Austin is okay?" Don't get me wrong, I didn't mind it, but still, my reaction was like 

Spoiler

 

[doubleT]

In the last thread, now closed, @singsingsing said:

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Guys, Michelle pretty much did everything right on that 911 call. For your own reference, if you ever have to call 911, you should try to speak as calmly and clearly as possible. I understand that in an emergency that can be difficult, but Michelle did a great job. Screaming or crying is not going to get your loved one help any faster. 

Also, Michelle's 'creepy' calm voice in emergencies is not something I'm going to criticize her for. I'm sure she's learned from experience that staying calm (or at least pretending to stay calm) seriously helps to de-escalate the situation. 

I agree, a calmer, steady voice is very helpful when talking with 911.  

I thought Mechelle's call was weird because of the words she used.   She said something like, "Mother bleeding out after giving birth." 

She just seems so detached.  

I would have said something like, "My daughter just gave birth at her home and she is bleeding more than normal and we think we need some help."  

 

[sunshine]

 

19 minutes ago, DillyDally said:

I was really surprised to see that as well, like "You're only supposed to side-hug your own dad but poking your future father-in-law in the belly while he is chaperoning you and Austin is okay?" Don't get me wrong, I didn't mind it, but still, my reaction was like 

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^^^This^^^ I did not know that Duggar's were touchy-feely type people. You know because of the whole Josh thing. 

[Snarkle Motion]

11 minutes ago, DillyDally said:

I was really surprised to see that as well, like "You're only supposed to side-hug your own dad but poking your future father-in-law in the belly while he is chaperoning you and Austin is okay?" Don't get me wrong, I didn't mind it, but still, my reaction was like 

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Agreed. It took me completely by surprise. It actually made me uncomfortable. Like these kids have no understanding of what is actually a healthy boundary. You probably should not be touching an adult non relative in a joking way like that. Even an adult relative, that was kind of weird. I don't know what their relationship is like but the idea that Austin isn't allowed to hold her hand or front hug her but she touched his dad this way? It's all kinds of messed up. 

It just blows my mind considering  that this family preaches women have to go to great lengths to guard against stirring up thoughts in men that they see this kind of touching, on camera no less, as not conflicting with their beliefs. Austin's dad made a teen girl change her clothing on worlds strictest parents because it wasn't modest enough. But front hugging or kissing your fiancé is giving up pieces of your heart.

[doubleT]

Another observation I wondered about.  When decorating for the shower, the girls used a stapler to hang a banner and the clouds from the ceiling etc.  Is that normal?  I would never hang anything on my walls with a stapler.   If I'm hanging something temporary to a wall like a poster or banner etc., I usually use painters tape on the back.  

[amendgitan]

12 hours ago, JMO said:

Someone in the previous thread asked if Jinger has gone the longest without being preggo and the answer is yes.  Anna got pregnant 4 months in, Jill was preggo immediately, and Jessa got pregnant 3 months in. Jinger has been married almost 8 months without an announcement.  She could be pregnant but unless she waited a very long time to announce she will be the longest.  We still need to see what happens with Joy. 

 I couldn't stand the way Jill asked her: "Are you preg-net?" It was such a gross question. Because I know what it means- "Have you achieved status yet? Are you fulfilling your role in the patriarchy? Are you on your way to becoming miserably trapped by multiple children and having your young body endlessly bloated by pregnancy, like the rest of us?" 

Gross. 

Also, 90% of young healthy people will become pregnant in  first year of unprotected sex . I hope like hell she is breaking from the horrific mold and purposefully delaying pregnancy but the year is not over and the possibility that any of these kids will break from the culture seems slim to me  

On another topic, Jill is actually calling her kid Chuchi and Chu Chu. It's a Hispanic nickname and may have been given to him by someone else. I think it's cute. 

Also, why does everyone think Derek is an asshole? I think Jill gladly jumped on the missionary thing and is a gleeful martyr. He is not forcing her to do anything. And the attitude that he has to make the decision to go or stay to "protect" his family is archaic and patriarchal.  If she's not complaining, why is he the only one of the two who should be responsible for understanding what's safe and what's not? 

Bottom line is being a missionary wife in a third world hell hole  is a way women in their world can attain some kind of status, apart from having dozens of kids. I think she revels in it. She loves every moment of her martyrdom to the point that others in their circle may be jealous and try to bring them down a peg. 

[amers]

Weight gain wouldn't be a factor with placenta issues like she had. I only gained 8 lbs with my 2nd child (and I'm not over weight to begin with. I just ate SUPER healthy which wasn't my usual (lol). When I delivered I had a blood clot follow the baby that was the size of a watermelon. The doctor was like 'Oh my gawd!'. So even with extensive medical care, in a hospital, with no cocaine, and little weight gain, I bled out. It happens. I'm happy her second labor was better, she seemed very worried. 

I actually liked this episode. It seemed a bit more relaxed. I have a feeling Jill is wearing everyone's nerves. Jessa, though she's never worked, spent her childhood raising her parents kids. I don't see anything wrong with her getting a bigger house, seeing as Jill was given a mansion. Plus. she basically carries this show. What I do find annoying is, Jill, who begs on social media for money even though her family is worth MILLIONS and she makes income from a TV show, suddenly "needing" to buy a house for "down time" in the country. 

I don't get Jill. Something is off with her and her husband. They just don't come across as loving or happy.My theory is, he married her thinking she was adventurous and wanted to be a missionary and then when they immediately got pregnant, it's thrown his plans off and he's bitter. Who knows. But her blurting out "Are you pregnant?" to Jinger was childish. Because she knows she won't lie, and no one did that to her. She just seemed to want to ruin it for her. 

Spurgeon is one of the most adorable little kids I've ever seen. I thought his behavior was normal. I do have concerns that he looks like he's gagging when they show him eating. It's been most every time, and he doesn't like textures. I wonder if he's got a little sensory issue going on. I just notice those things cause I have a kid with sensory issues, I'm not diagnosing, it's just something he's done numerous times they've shown him. 

 

[VelociRapture]

10 minutes ago, doubleT said:

In the last thread, now closed, @singsingsing said:

I agree, a calmer, steady voice is very helpful when talking with 911.  

I thought Mechelle's call was weird because of the words she used.   She said something like, "Mother bleeding out after giving birth." 

She just seems so detached.  

I would have said something like, "My daughter just gave birth at her home and she is bleeding more than normal and we think we need some help."  

 

We discussed this at the time:

- Most people seemed to agree that it was better the way she worded it because the operator knew exactly what had happened immediately. The less words the better. It's also possible she went with the wording she did because it kept her calm, which is what Jessa and Ben needed most at the time. 

- Besides, the Duggars knew there was a chance the call could be requested under FOIA at that point. Michelle likely worded things that way because she wanted to keep as much information quiet as possible before Benessa had a chance to talk about it themselves.

- You didn't mention this, but someone else did. This is one time I won't snark on her for messing up an age or name. Her daughter was hemorrhaging after giving birth. I don't care who you are, for a mother it is terrifying to see your child in danger and not be able to do much to help them.

[Bad Wolf]

I always have to think how old Wolf Boy is in a normal situation. 34, 35? 30 something. No MOTY for me.

[amendgitan]

10 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

 

- You didn't mention this, but someone else did. This is one time I won't snark on her for messing up an age or name. Her daughter was hemorrhaging after giving birth. I don't care who you are, for a mother it is terrifying to see your child in danger and not be able to do much to help them.

I agree with everything you said really. But that woman is so robotically stepford that it seems she is totally detached about her kids and doesn't feel anything for them. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

@amers One thing Counting on has done for Jessa is made her likable, she's so much less sanctimonious and better than you. She's still clueless and has fucked up opinions but she's a very good mother, you can see she genuinely loves her family and I think has taken over the task that SOMEONE has to keep the brand going for the sake of her little family and her extended family. 

As for her house, I totally believe she loves her little house, our 1st house was only 940 sq feet but it had 2 bathrooms and 3 bedrooms a tiny galley kitchen and a small family room and a small laundry room.  I LOVED that little house, we had 2 kids there and it was just homey and easy to maintain, I always knew where my kids where. We just got to a point when #2 was about 4 years old that it was too small, there was no where for anyone to go to get away from each other but bedrooms, and those were small and right there so there was no "getting away".  We moved into a 1850 sq foot house and at 1st it was so roomy and wonderful, and even now 13 years later aside from a few things like an extra full bath and a room aside from the basement or a bedroom to go to to get away from the noise it is perfect.  We are hopefully going to sell next year into a smaller house again as #1 is getting ready to move out on his own in the next year or so and #2 will most likely be out in 4 years tops once she is done with High School in May of 2018  (my baby) and then Dental Hygiene school and has a full time job.  DS is hoping his pt job that he loves goes full time with better pay in the next few weeks, as he flounders around trying to decides what he wants to be when he grows up. But either way he'll have a full time job of some kind and he REALLY wants to get his own place though we aren't in a huge hurry for him to move out just yet. He's only 19 and we would like him to be a bit more settled career wise before taking on expenses like an apartment and a car payment. 

[amendgitan]

4 hours ago, Iamtheway said:

Isn't it a bit weird that Joy says she and her THREE older sisters could be pregnant at the same time. She has four older sisters and I understand one of them aren't married. But neither was Joy when she said it. 

It's like Jana is a neuter to them- eternally a child because she doesn't have a new headship to be handed over to. She remains under the authority of her father. 

I caught that too. 

But it is kind of a vague statement that we might be giving undue weight to. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

7 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

I always have to think how old Wolf Boy is in a normal situation. 34, 35? 30 something. No MOTY for me.

LOL!  There is a reason I started calling my kids large child an small child when irritated with them. DS (the oldest) has always been a full head taller, at least, than his little sister, so large (oldest) child, small (youngest) child.  They are 19 & 17 and I will still do this in public when they are being typical teenagers.  My daughters age is easy to remember she was born in Feb. of 2000 so what ever the year is, is how old she is my son was born in Nov of 97 so that can take some mathing. 

The grand-kids are numbered 1 thru 5, or 6, depending on with my mom or my dad (1 step sibling has a kid) but we all get the numbers mixed up since my step nephew is #3 on dad's side, so that messes up my siblings kids birth order. My 2 are easy since they were the 1st 2 and the only for the 1st 12 1/2 years of DS and 10 years of DD's lives. My 2 nephews were born in 2010 1st in may other October and both nieces were born in April 2012. 

[amendgitan]

1 hour ago, Daisy0322 said:

*Educated guess*

sounds like she has something similar to what I've been experiencing, and with better medical care mine has been found and I got put on partial bedrest and am heavily monitored. Placental issues unless you're doing cocain, smoking, have high BP, etc are uncommon but does occur in 1% of pregnancies. It's not diet related unless your having coke for breakfast like scarface lol. 

Can you imagine that she has no real choice about whether to have babies or not despite whatever condition she may have? It's horrible. 

Every time she talks about how scared she is during pregnancy or anytime Jill describes her nausea, I keep snarking at the tv- "Yeah well that's the rest of your young life. You will face years of morning sickness when added together and repeated childbirth."

Anthropologically-speaking, humans have evolved in such a manner (upright and narrow birth canal in relation to fetal head size) so as to make childbirth a process that's very taxing on the body and always potentially dangerous despite it being natural. 

I think a person would have to have a heart made of stone not to be moved by the moment a mama has her newborn placed in her arms and cries with love and joy and relief, but for me, their pregnancies are sad events. 

These women's lives are dictated for them to such an intense degree. Their very bodies are not their own. 

I can't fathom being endlessly "preg-net".  Your whole young life. I mean it's nice to be married and having a sexual relationship while you feel fit and young and good. These women don't have that much. Most of the sex they're having is while pregnant -nauseous or just big or cranky - because they're pregnant for about 8 months or so out of every year if they're fertile enough. 

Poor things. I'm happy for Michael Bates- that she gets to enjoy herself and get to know herself and her husband for awhile before being mired down in pregnancies and child-rearing. 

These ladies would be extemely lucky to be able to have only 4-6 kids each. 

[The Wanderer]

50 minutes ago, amendgitan said:

 I couldn't stand the way Jill asked her: "Are you preg-net?" It was such a gross question. Because I know what it means- "Have you achieved status yet? Are you fulfilling your role in the patriarchy? Are you on your way to becoming miserably trapped by multiple children and having your young body endlessly bloated by pregnancy, like the rest of us?" 

I sincerely hope that Jill would be more sympathetic if any of her sisters or sisters-in-law ever end up suffering from infertility. But then again, that may be a lot to expect from Jill. She would probably try to relate it to the "terribly long" year and a half it to took for her to conceive SS after having Izzy...sigh.

4 hours ago, Iamtheway said:

Isn't it a bit weird that Joy says she and her THREE older sisters could be pregnant at the same time. She has four older sisters and I understand one of them aren't married. But neither was Joy when she said it. 

I hated that she said that. It's very obvious that they see Jana as beneath them simply because they are married and she's not. And as an unmarried woman the same age as Jana (granted I am in a relationship) I find it highly offensive, but that is what their cult has raised them to believe.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

42 minutes ago, amendgitan said:

These ladies would be extremely lucky to be able to have only 4-6 kids each. 

That is assuming that they will all avoid any and all birth control. My mom was raised in this way she's from a fundamentalist Catholic family, her sisters avoided birth control until a certain point, those points both being they could no longer afford or have room for any more children in their homes.  My mom and 2 of her 3 brothers all used birth control, my mom only had 3 kids uncle had 4 (1 set of twins with 1 wife and 2 single births with wife #2) the other uncle only had 1 child. Now all of the grands were born AFTER the availability of the pill, though when it was 1st introduced in the 1960. 

Now all of the grand kids (all 18 of us) but 1 use/d birth control even though we were all raised in fundylite to conservative catholic homes. Everyone I know that was raised in a fundy type religion (most all of them catholic) all used birth control even if their parents found it to be "sinful". Granted I only know a handful of Duggar type fundies, not quiverfull but ISB, so pretty hard core, and they all used some form of birth control, after having 3 or 4 kids.  I live Iowa, so I'm not in the bible belt, but I'm near it so I don't know a lot of hard core fundy types, so maybe I'm not realizing just how deep this BC thing goes with them ,but all the ones I know raised in these types of homes were much less strict than their parents, as were most of their siblings. Sure a few here and there followed the parents and hit double digit w/ the number of kids but they were much fewer than even I realized their would be. 

45 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I hated that she said that. It's very obvious that they see Jana as beneath them simply because they are married and she's not. And as an unmarried woman the same age as Jana (granted I am in a relationship) I find it highly offensive, but that is what their cult has raised them to believe.

I don't see Jess & Joy looking down on Jana, I see Jill doing it, but not so much Joy & Jessa.  I took what Joy said to literally mean that she, just like her married sisters, could be pregnant at the same time. Nothing more nothing less, simply because it is out of their realm of possibilities that Jana would have a child with out being married.  

I think Jessa, Jinger and Joy look up to Jana, she's a mother figure to all of them and their big sister. Jana is who they call when they need help with something, Jana is who the littles run to when they are sick or scared or upset.  I even got the impression from Joy that she was protective of her sister, when the producer asked if Jana had a boyfriend and Jana laughed awkwardly and Joy said "not that she would tell you anyway" like shut up about it and leave her alone.  

Perhaps Jana isn't married because Jana doesn't want to be married, she can't say that to her parents or the public, but her sisters could know, and I can see especially Jessa & Joy keeping that to themselves and defending Jana if it comes up.  As for Jill, Jana is the only big sister and Jill doesn't like that competition I think.  I think they are friends but I think there is some jealousy (at least on Jill's part) there and Jana doesn't' care in the least because she wants a totally different life than Jill. 

[amendgitan]

38 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

  I live Iowa, so I'm not in the bible belt, but I'm near it so I don't know a lot of hard core fundy types, so maybe I'm not realizing just how deep this BC thing goes with them ,but all the ones I know raised in these types of homes were much less strict than their parents, as were most of their siblings. Sure a few here and there followed the parents and hit double digit w/ the number of kids but they were much fewer than even I realized their would be. 

 God I hope you're right. But the BC issue is huge with them.  It's a cornerstone of their faith and culture. 

For women it is essential to have kids to attain status. An analogy i made is that a woman who starts courting is like someone who graduated from high school. A woman who gets engaged is like someone starting a vocational program.  A woman who gets married is like someone who started community college. Married with a child or two = an AA degree. 

Married with five or more = a BA. Married with 10 or more = a Master's degree. 

Michelle Dugggar with close to 20 has a fucking doctorate in the fundie world. She has the highest  status except if she had managed to die in childbirth with her 20th. That would merit a posthumous Nobel Peace Prize. 

All joking aside, not using birth control is a political issue in their culture. One of the most important ones. As Quiverful, Christian dominionists they are tasked with bearing as many kids for Christ as possible so they can create a Christian (and though they don't say it, mostly white) army that can wipe out the heathen and infidels. 

That is seriously their belief. To use birth control is exceedingly "haram". It's as taboo as incest it to normal people. (And strangely incest does not seem taboo to them). 

In by humble opinion, to try to openly prevent pregnancy in their culture would be like telling their parents, "yeah, I'm divorcing my husband and going completely lesbian, tying my tubes and beginning a massive tattoo collection that's visible when wearing my tiny tank tops and short shorts."

Ok. I admit that's a bit of hyperbole, but you get my drift!  

[SuhrEnity]

2 hours ago, Snarkle Motion said:

You probably should not be touching an adult non relative in a joking way like that. Even an adult relative, that was kind of weird

I don't understand that. We all did things like this to my dad all the time and we're all close enough to our father's in law that we link arms with them, tease them about their growing bellies by poking them when they say their hungry and squeeze their cheeks affectionately. What is innapropriate about that? Maybe her father in law and new family are more affectionate than her birth family? Maybe she and her father in law have gotten close and in him she sees the father she never got in JimBoob

[amendgitan]

1 hour ago, SuhrEnity said:

I don't understand that. We all did things like this to my dad all the time and we're all close enough to our father's in law that we link arms with them, tease them about their growing bellies by poking them when they say their hungry and squeeze their cheeks affectionately. What is innapropriate about that? Maybe her father in law and new family are more affectionate than her birth family? Maybe she and her father in law have gotten close and in him she sees the father she never got in JimBoob

I thought it was innocent and sweet. Showed a closeness and affability between them. 

Yeah, most grown women don't sort of tickle or grab at their father in law's bellies except as you say, to playfully poke them or something. But she's very young and I was grateful to see some semblance of normal, physical closeness there. Because these kids have been raised so repressed. Normal physical affection has been deemed dangerous to them. 

So this seemed playful and relaxed and showed she may be getting a different experience finally, showing that affection is a good thing. 

I liked it. 

[Georgiana]

1 hour ago, amendgitan said:

Poor things. I'm happy for Michael Bates- that she gets to enjoy herself and get to know herself and her husband for awhile before being mired down in pregnancies and child-rearing. 

While I mostly agree with your sentiment, I think it's slightly cruel to be happy for Michael Bates since she has posted about how her failure to conceive is breaking her heart.  Despite wanting a smaller family myself, some couples do genuinely want large families, and Michael has always been very open about being one of them.  

Infertility is tough.  No matter who you are.  No matter what your worldview is.

If Michael and Brandon were OK with not having kids right now, I'd be happy for them.  But that's not the case.  They have been actively trying to start a family, and while they have been enjoying this time together, that doesn't take away the pain of being unable to conceive the baby they very much want.  Michael DESPERATELY wants to be a mother, but it appears that there is a possibility that will never be the case.  And after raising her siblings, that's got to be absolutely devastating.  

So really, she's NOT enjoying herself.  She would MUCH rather have an infant and another on the way.  And that's fine because much as fundies shouldn't tell women to be happy being CONTINUALLY pregnant, we shouldn't tell them to be glad they AREN'T pregnant.  Women should be allowed to feel however they individually want about pregnancy and feel empowered to time their pregnancies as THEY (and no one else) see fit.

Here's the blog: http://brandonandmichaela.com/2017/06/25/learning-to-trust/ 

[JoyJoy]

I don't think any of the girls look down on Jana  Of course she won't be pregnant soon. Jana isn't engaged or married.

I find Jill annoying, but I'm surprised by so much of the hate she gets. Tumblr is  blaming her for Joy getting married in May("Jill didn't want to share her wedding month") I'm going to defend Jill she asked a normal  in their world. Her sisters, including Jinger, couldn't wait to ask Jill if she was pregnant after her honeymoon. Jessa is more media savvy. She didn't become likable until after 19 Kids was cancelled and her family was under fire. I don't think Jill (and others) have caught on.

 

[VelociRapture]

18 minutes ago, JoyJoy said:

I don't think any of the girls look down on Jana  Of course she won't be pregnant soon. Jana isn't engaged or married.

I find Jill annoying, but I'm surprised by so much of the hate she gets. Tumblr is  blaming her for Joy getting married in May("Jill didn't want to share her wedding month") I'm going to defend Jill she asked a normal  in their world. Her sisters, including Jinger, couldn't wait to ask Jill if she was pregnant after her honeymoon. Jessa is more media savvy. She didn't become likable until after 19 Kids was cancelled and her family was under fire. I don't think Jill (and others) have caught on.

 

Absolutely agree with you on pretty much everything. I understand how annoying she can come across to many people. She's much more outgoing than some of her other siblings - combine that with the beliefs she was raised with and I absolutely see how annoying she can be and I don't hold that against anyone. 

But blaming her for something outside her control like Joy's wedding month? Or commenting about how she's such a slob or clearly an attention whore for her attire at Joy's wedding? Acting like she's the worst person ever for asking Jinger a question that's completely normal in their world and that Jill herself was asked after she got married, quite possibly by Jinger? That I don't get as much.

ETA: @GeorgianaForgot this! That was an excellent post regarding Michael Keilen. I'm sure the other poster meant no harm, but I'm glad you pointed out how painful it must be for her and Brandon not to have conceived at this point. I don't wish any additional pain on them, but I do hope they manage to find some happiness or fulfillment as their lives currently are. 

[lumpentheologie]

29 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

And that's fine because much as fundies shouldn't tell women to be happy being CONTINUALLY pregnant, we shouldn't tell them to be glad they AREN'T pregnant.  Women should be allowed to feel however they individually want about pregnancy and feel empowered to time their pregnancies as THEY (and no one else) see fit.

@Georgiana This is so well put!  I totally agree. 

[CreationMuseumSeasonPass]

That blog post by Michael broke my heart. 

[Natalie22]

15 minutes ago, JoyJoy said:

I don't think any of the girls look down on Jana  Of course she won't be pregnant soon. Jana isn't engaged or married.

I find Jill annoying, but I'm surprised by so much of the hate she gets. Tumblr is  blaming her for Joy getting married in May("Jill didn't want to share her wedding month") I'm going to defend Jill she asked a normal  in their world. Her sisters, including Jinger, couldn't wait to ask Jill if she was pregnant after her honeymoon. Jessa is more media savvy. She didn't become likable until after 19 Kids was cancelled and her family was under fire. I don't think Jill (and others) have caught on.

 

I completely agree.  They were constantly pestering Jill, making her take pregnancy tests at their house.  It's funny that when it's Jessa's best friend, that she has a problem doing that to Jinger, but it was completely acceptable to do that to Jill.