Counting On: Season Four Part 2

[rainbowbabycakes]

On 6/13/2017 at 6:20 PM, fluffernutter said:

OMG watching now. The music. The cello and piano as people were walking in was pleasant. But Joy's music ACK. My husband asked if Julius Caesar is getting married?!

I recognized the hymn that was playing as I was watching, but now I can't remember what it was

[MoonFace]

On 6/16/2017 at 11:28 AM, Queen said:

I found it so telling that the wedding invitation said "The Fortsynth and Duggar parents invite you to the wedding of their children". I have never seen a wedding invitation before (except JinJer's) where the parents are even mentioned, it seems so odd! Idk, it might be a tradition even outside of fundie circles that the parents of the couple invite the guests, but to me it just seems to highlight the fact that these young women and men are basically still children and that their parents are orchestrating their lives. Not good PR...   

If the parents are paying for the wedding it is usual for the parents to invite people. My generation generally had invitations that said MR&MRS X request the honor of your presence   to the wedding of their daughter Z, to Y on the (date)  Where both parents are hosting it would have both parents inviting folks  Now, when most couples are living together and paying for their own wedding they are the hosts for the wedding so do the inviting.

[calimojo]

I think JB probably owns just that one suit.  He certainly got his money's worth with 4 weddings worth of wears.  It fits him poorly especially in the pants. 

I always think that JB is more emotional at the weddings and generally it feels sincere, at least sincere for JB, that is.  But, the scenes with he and Joy felt so forced this time.  When he hugged her, it looked as if she were trying to conjure up some tears or emotion, but it just wasn't there for her or for him.  Someone upthread said that Joy was the first of the girls to be handed off to a sister mom, thus their connection to her is less strong, and to me that showed. If you didn't know that Michelle was her mother, you would have thought she was her aunt, or perhaps a kindly neighbor  helping out.  It seemed to barely register on Michele that this was her daughter getting married.  And JB who usually seems more conflicted with the girls leaving house seemed to be dialing it in on this one as well.  

Poor Joy,  when you grow up as #9 raised by a sister,  it is no wonder you fall hard for someone who promises to make your #1 in their eyes.  It is no wonder you easily give up your identity to your new headship, because no one along the way has ever taught you the value of having your own identity, or being your own person. 

There is a small sassy, non-conforming Joy in there somewhere, but it is on the back burner.  Here's to hoping that Austin remembers seeing Joy have some spunkiness and enjoyed that part of her personality.  Here's to hoping he steps aside and lets Joy figure out who the fuck she is.  However,  As someone else mentioned, the whole exchange about the Hair and veil did not make me feel good about this match.  While he said the words "Pick what you like" or whatever,  in truth, he very subtly suggested that the Braided hair was his preference.  Austin seems like a pretty bright kid and he has grown up with a controlling father.  It seems pretty unlikely that he wouldn't have learned some subtle ways to exert authority via influence, suggestions, and possibly even subtle put-downs or criticisms when something doesn't live up to his expectations.  Joy is eager to please, she wants to prove herself as a worthy helpmeet, and sadly,  she isn't sophisticated or insightful enough yet to know when she is manipulated to please her man.  We all know his comment about the braid was taken to heart as she eventually ended up with a braid at some point.

I am not saying that Austin is a monster,  it is equally likely he doesn't even realize that he may be controlling.  He has his dad as a role model.  How else does he know how to communicate? 

I will say that Austin and his friends, seemed decidedly more "Normal" to me in the groom's room and during pictures.  Their sense of humor and joking with one another seemed like something you could see at anyone's wedding.  They seemed to really know each other well too.  I think that Austin may have had a broader and perhaps more 'normal' circle of friends, than the duggars, Dillards and Seewalds.  Hoping that is true.

And finally, as to Austin mandating skirts/dresses,  I think that is reading too much into what Joy said.  She simply said Austin likes Dresses.  That does not mean that he forbids pants, or doesn't also like pants or sees pants as practical for certain kinds of activities.  It could just be that he isn't fond of those horrible denim skirts.  And it is also true that many young women will try to dress to impress their BF, or husbands.   I don't know that is automatically bad.  I mean, I know many women, who have no trouble telling their husbands how to dress, especially for fancy occasions.  Obviously in Joy's case we know that this is somewhat symbolic of all decisions she will be making about her life from this point on, so that is why it feels so sad.

[Daisy0322]

I mean as far as dressing how her now husband likes within reason it's not a big deal. I have a dress I know my husband likes I sometimes wear it just because I know he likes it. But he would also never tell me not to wear something. So I think the latter is more important than the former.

[Galbin]

Sooo late to the party, but I had to wait two days for it to go up on YT, and then it was taken down. Finally saw it yesterday!

1) What was the transcriber smoking? Joy clearly meant "Oh my gown", not "Oh my cow".

2) If only I had been able to watch it live, I could have joined in the drinking game. Considering how many times Michelle used the word "precious", I would have been off my head by the end of the episode.

3) I don't get why folks were criticising Joy's hair. After all, someone else does your hair on your wedding day, so you don't necessarily have that much control over it. I know I wasn't happy with my hair when I saw my photos, but there was nothing I could have done about it at the time*.  It seems a bit BEC to me.

4) Surprisingly, the proposal was not tacky at all, and Joy seemed to really get kick out of it. Also, Kendra so looked like she was going to kiss Joe - not just once, but multiple times actually. I watched an interview on YT with a lady who grew up with in this movement, and she said that she and her now hubby managed to steal a few kisses. I have also read similar experience on the No Longer Quivering site. So perhaps they have indeed stolen a kiss before.

5) JB does love his daughters, and he actually looks at Michelle sometimes with that fundie stare. It would be sweet if he had transmitted this love to raising his kids properly.

6) I actually thought that Joy was a bit reminiscent of Jessa with her assertiveness re: cake cutting, and her rather blunt, "We're not gonna be able to stay long." LOLZ at that! Like, "See you suckers; we can finally spend time alone. Let's blow this town !"

* I was in agony with an infection on my wedding day; and it still upsets me that I never got to have the “perfect”day. Plus, despite building in extra time, hair and makeup ran over. Hence no time to even check my hair before I left for the church.

 

[Million Children For Jesus]

1 hour ago, Daisy0322 said:

I mean as far as dressing how her now husband likes within reason it's not a big deal. I have a dress I know my husband likes I sometimes wear it just because I know he likes it. But he would also never tell me not to wear something. So I think the latter is more important than the former.

Yes, this. ^

 As long as she is comfortable, and it is something that feels authentic, than go ahead and wear something he likes. If she feels obligated, intimidated, lacks confidence to make a decision, or is wearing something she dislikes because she lacks the assertiveness to say, "not my style," than that's when it's a problem.

I'm paraphrasing this off memory, but she told Jessa that she disliked strong colors because they wash her out (she's right) and she didn't want to get noticed. Jessa told her it's okay to get noticed, in what I felt was a snarky tone that was dismissive to Joy's feelings and preferences. Joy sheepishly walked away muttering she didn't want to get noticed that way. (Who wants to get noticed for looking washed out?) If my sister had told me to wear a color that I felt was unflattering after I just finished saying I didn't like it, I would have told her... not nice words. At least Joy didn't kowtow to Jessa, so that's a good sign. I think Austin is more considerate than Jessa, and being away from her family will give her opportunities she didn't have before to make decisions for herself and form preferences.

If she defers to Austin, I think that's more because of her lack of confidence making decisions and lack of communication skills, all in part due to her age, personality type, and upbringing. Not because of anything he's requiring. He liked her spunkiness, so maybe he's expecting her to be forthright and not passive. 

[nastyhobbitses]

1 hour ago, Daisy0322 said:

I mean as far as dressing how her now husband likes within reason it's not a big deal. I have a dress I know my husband likes I sometimes wear it just because I know he likes it. But he would also never tell me not to wear something. So I think the latter is more important than the former.

I have a dress that my long-distance boyfriend told me he liked (when we were in the same country). I plan to wear it on the plane when I go see him this September (it's a sort of sweatshirt-material shift dress with zipper pockets - I can dress it up with heels and it looks great, or wear it with leggings and boots on a plane and be the comfiest lady around) because I know he likes it. A little sexist/regressive of me? Maybe. But to me it's no different from making him a cake made of his favorite flavors for his birthday, or him drawing a picture of me as a badass warrior (or him wearing those tailored suits I told him I liked).

If he ever told me what to wear, he'd get a stern talking-to at the very least.

[JDuggs]

About Austin's braid comment: I doubt he really cared at all how she wore her hair. Maybe at some time previously, Joy had mentioned wearing her hair in a braid. So instead of Austin commenting about not caring about something that Joy was concerned about, maybe he parroted back something that she had said in the past to validate her opinion. (Can you tell I've been to couples therapy?) Maybe in an effort to look like he's engaged in the conversation, he made a comment that appears controlling, but it could just be him trying to appear interested in the topic instead of telling her that he doesn't care about her hair. Austin seems like a nice kid, but I think out of the husbands, he was raised in the deepest patriarchal bs. But it doesn't necessarily mean he'll want to stay that way.

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

Back on the topic of glittery cats. Has anybody seen this?

Spoiler

www.buzzfeed.com/laurenstrapagiel/glitter-cat?utm_term=.xrz3qNpD5#.gwyGj597w

As for glitter poop, I don't know of a business that will ship glitter poop to your enemies, but you can make your own glitter poop with these:

Spoiler

www.etsy.com/ca/listing/214050588/glitter-pills-glitter-pill-sparkle-pill?ref=market

 

[cascarones]

8 hours ago, HarryPotterFan said:

I'm having a giggle fit over here. Poor kitty.

How do you get glitter off a cat?

The next text was "the lint roller is working really well." Haha, turns out she loves being lint rolled and she's not water averse so we used one of those staticy microfiber wash clothes to try and get the rest off of her while soft bathing her. 

His sister just visited us, became best friends with glitter kitty, and had her hair put into Duggar long loose curls (I had to watch the video on how to curl hair, since naturally curly me has no clue). 18 seems so achingly young now, at home she's very sheltered and we ended up chaperoning a "date". Boyfriend didn't want baby sister off to meet some guy she met on the internet who encouraged her to sneak out and borrow my car without telling anyone. Fair enough, but I would have preferred to chill with just glitter kitty over have her boorish "yogurt shop professional" over. 

it reinforced just how impressionable and easy to please girls are with those first crushes. For Duggars those crushes lead to marriage quickly, which after seeing her and this bloke is unfathomable to me and a bit heartbreaking.  I don't have kids so I have no clue how you moms handle those red flag conversations and get anywhere farther than making sure they know the door is open to talk, because it is all so viscerally real and intense for them.  I've done lots of mentoring, but it's different when it's family and what I see as red flags she sees as totally cute/ awesome or 'he's got my best interests at heart'. 

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

@JDuggs That's exactly how I saw the braid exchange. He thought she was gonna wear a braid so that's what he mentioned. He was pretty adamant about her doing what she liked, and didn't sound manipulative at all to me. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

2 hours ago, Galbin said:

1) What was the transcriber smoking? Joy clearly meant "Oh my gown", not "Oh my cow".

Nope - she clearly said "cow" - not "gown."

[NeverBeenKissed]

Agreeing on him mentioning the braid. I kept saying for months before the wedding that I was going to do something fun with my nails  (an animal print). I ended up doing them at the last minute after our rehearsal dinner at the hotel before I went to bed. My husband noticed it right away during our first look photos. 

[JMO]

She definitely said cow. She also said "Austin likes me in dresses." Not "Austin likes dresses. " Now, it may be innocent but let's look at the context.  She has been raised to make him happy and follow him and he has been raised to lead their household and set the standards that they live by. Hmmmm. He doesn't need to say " I want you to wear more dresses and not as many skirts and definitely not pants." He just needs to say he likes the way she looks in dresses.  

[JDuggs]

1 minute ago, JMO said:

She definitely said cow. She also said "Austin likes me in dresses." Not "Austin likes dresses. " Now, it may be innocent but let's look at the context.  She has been raised to make him happy and follow him and he has been raised to lead their household and set the standards that they live by. Hmmmm. He doesn't need to say " I want you to wear more dresses and not as many skirts and definitely not pants." He just needs to say he likes the way she looks in dresses.  

But I think it's all a matter of interpretation. Austin may have said, "Joy, you look beautiful in that dress." And Joy might have interpreted that as "Austin likes me in dresses." If Austin had the opportunity to see Joy in a pair of jeans, he'd probably tell her she was beautiful in them. Much of what they say can be interpreted in so many ways.

 

[MadeItOut]

This discussion is making me love Mr MIO even more. - I had a work thing last week and he's been keeping on top of all things domestic as I was sick + we couldn't do stuff together. Dragging myself together to go along, he stuck his head round the bathroom and said: ''I can't work it out - you're sick, so will you wat your feel awesome kickers or comfy ones.'' I love that man.

[just_ordinary]

The whole braid and veil scene made me wonder if Joy felt pressure by Michelle, her mum and the other bridesmaids. Maybe they talked about what she wanted and he was surprised she didn't do it in the end. 

[VelociRapture]

@GalbinIt would be BEC if people were just snarling about how her hair looked or that her hair didn't fit their personal idea of bridal. 

What people are actually talking about is the fact that Joy seemed incapable of even deciding how to wear her hair on her wedding day and seemingly asked Austin to decide for her.

I don't watch the show, so I don't have an opinion on whether or not it was normal or indicative of how controlling Austin may be. But I don't find the general discussion to be BEC at all. 

[Coconut Flan]

Carry on here: