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Duggars by the Dozen 29 - A Very Inappropriate Lawsuit


Coconut Flan

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With my parents Dad took care of the cars, the lawn, and fixing things. On days off he was always outside mowing the lawn, weeding, checking the cars or fixing things through the house. Mom was the one who did the cleaning, laundry, shopping and handled the money. Cooking was divided between them based on their work schedules Mom went to work really early so he made breakfast and it was up to him to get the kids off to school. Mom got off early in the afternoon so she was in charge of dinner and making sure homework was done. But they were really good at doing each other's jobs if they had to when Dad got sick Mom took over the yard and could mow the lawn, trim bushes and things as good as he could. In  last few years Dad had to take over all the jobs in the house as Mom got sick and me (Mom got sick a few months after I did). The cooking, cleaning, laundry and shopping. The last has always been hardest for my dad he was one of those who  you'd show a picture of an item, tell him exactly where it was in the store and still get the wrong thing. Sure he made a few mistakes when he took over shopping but he really worked hard to get it right and now does an excellent job. He did all of it while taking care of his wife and daughter.

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On 6/25/2017 at 7:37 PM, Rachel333 said:

That kind of thing isn't limited to fundies. I've read articles about how in general men think they're evenly splitting tasks when really the tasks they do are occasional ones and the women end up doing the vast majority of the work.

Even with secular couples who consider their marriage egalitarian and both have full time jobs the women statistically end up doing most of the housework.

It's so true. This has been a major issue in both live-in relationships I've had and has tanked the marriages of at least three or four of my friends. They all said that getting divorced was a huge relief, in that they went from managing their, their husband's, and their kids' lives to just managing themselves and the kids, with the added bonus of no more arguing over unequal shares of domestic and emotional labor. One of my friends is currently going through the divorce from hell with a total jackass who had a very inflated view of his contribution to chores and childcare. She's moved out, and their (formerly) shared home is a total sty and he constantly fobs their kid off on her on his custody days because he's "busy" (read: never learned how to coordinate childcare or schedule around his kid obligations because she always did it). Naturally, he demanded 50-50 custody because he doesn't want to pay child support. Little does he know, she's documenting every time he delays a pickup or brings the kid back early, and it will be coming up when their divorce is finalized next year. Meanwhile, she's happily living in a clean, conflict-free home. 

As for my experiences, my first live-in relationship was a disaster wherein my ex decided that, since I was not the breadwinner, I was responsible for all the chores. I stupidly agreed, it was miserable, never again. When I got with my second live-in ex, I was like, "WON'T BE FOOLED AGAIN," and made him agree to a strict division of labor before I moved in. The short version was that I was responsible for all the food-related chores, and he was responsible for everything else. Little did I realize that I would still be putting more hours in than he was (meal planning, shopping, prepping, and cooking really add up!) each week, but that he would let his chores go until the apartment was a sty and laundry was piled up, and then he'd bitch at me for not helping him, or try to guilt/rope me into helping, and would then either act like an asshole when I refused or would criticize my contributions if I didn't.

While both of these guys were overt tools in a lot of ways, the passive-aggressive, feigned obliviousness, learned helplessness, "it just goes better if you do it, sweetie," shit is so real and has, to varying degrees, impacted every relationship I've ever been in. One of the many, many reasons why I'm a single pringle.

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Man ive tried to explain that too my husband too, that even though he does chores and mostly w/o me reminding him, im the one who has to think of all the random little things that arent already divided out, and this takes a lot of mental energy. I always end up doing those things as well.  Some examples I give him are: kids grooming ie cutting fingernails, getting haircuts etc, managing kids wardrobes, scheduling and executing family photos, planning and executing family outings and kids activities. He will gladly help with these things but they are never his idea.  My husband is a great guy but he doesnt really get when i go on this rant. He also feels Im belittling his contributions when I go off. 

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Somewhere I read an article about how mostly women are responsible for what I think was called the "mental work" in a household.  Making and remembering the doctors appointments, dental exams, school deadlines all that kind of stuff. Birthdays, anniversaries, allergies, etc. And how if the other partner has never been in charge of all that, they don't realize how much time and energy it actually takes. Gosh, I really hope it wasn't posted in the thread because then I'd feel like more of an idiot. Anyway, I really related to the article and felt vindicated for feeling that even when I don't work outside the house, I work more hours than my husband does.

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@JesusCampSongs I've had some very similar experiences, and since then have always evaluated men based on how much time and mental energy they would cost me to keep them around. None of the guys I've dated have been worth the mental weight and hours lost, and all have been indignant and offended when I've tried to talk them through the cost/benefit analysis of why I'd be willing to date, but won't live with or marry them unless I saw some dramatic behaviour changes. Their usual response was flat denial, even when I'd pulled together a sampling  from days they had been in my house, and tracked the additional hours and increased activities they had cost me. 

It's so strange to me how oblivious some people are to their own indolence, and so many of my BFs seemed to take for granted that they were entitled to having someone else cook and clean for them while (happily) managing the minutiae of their lives. It was also very strange to me how they expected praise for doing basic chores and simple tasks, yet when I did those things, it was not worth mentioning. All a huge part of why I can't even be bothered to date. 

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On 27.6.2017 at 6:55 PM, JordynDarby5 said:

The last has always been hardest for my dad he was one of those who  you'd show a picture of an item, tell him exactly where it was in the store and still get the wrong thing. 

When my mum writes shopping lists for my dad, she has to list the things in the exact order as they are in the shop. My dad hates to search for various things while shopping and he would more likely not buy something instead of searching for it at ALDI. Mostly they do the grocery shopping together but I remember a time when my Mum broke her leg and my Dad was in charge. It was quite challenging for him, and I have a high respect for my Mum because she can remember the right order of the items. So if he had to go to Aldi my mum would start with coffee, if he had to go to a different store, the coffee would be between vegetables and the dvd-section, and so on ... 

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@Scrabblemaster--When I was single and did almost all my grocery shopping at the same store, I used to make my list geographically, like your mom did for your dad. It really helped when I was distracted. Now I seem to have 2 or 3 stores I hit regularly and they're all set out differently.

That was really nice of your mom to make it easier for your dad.

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50 minutes ago, Scrabblemaster said:

When my mum writes shopping lists for my dad, she has to list the things in the exact order as they are in the shop. My dad hates to search for various things while shopping and he would more likely not buy something instead of searching for it at ALDI. Mostly they do the grocery shopping together but I remember a time when my Mum broke her leg and my Dad was in charge. It was quite challenging for him, and I have a high respect for my Mum because she can remember the right order of the items. So if he had to go to Aldi my mum would start with coffee, if he had to go to a different store, the coffee would be between vegetables and the dvd-section, and so on ... 

Do you know the work of Jeanne Robertson? She's fantastic! The first video of hers I ever saw was "Don't Send A Man To The Grocery Store". You totally have me thinking of that and grinning now.

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@WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? yes, you're right it was very nice of my mum. I learnt from her that lists for grocery shopping are really useful. I mostly do them before we go shopping (but not always, and I always regret it afterwards), but I am not nearly as good as my mum is. My first and major problem is, that I often forget the list at home :pb_biggrin:. I don't do the lists geographically , but I should give it a try. And I knew I was my mum's daughter when Aldi changed their system and I was honestly pissed for a couple of days and complained about it even longer, mostly to my mum. 

@MadeItOut oh my god! I watched the video before this post and it was hilarious! 

 

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Chores can be a constant negotiation. My thing is "you took care of everything for yourself before we got married so I know you can do it." Of course we married in our mid 30s, so he had lots of practice.

he cooks & shops & mows and I clean & do laundry. It seems like everything else is up for grabs. We both do snow removal & take care of our own cars. I manage most of the kid stuff - setting up appointments & sleepovers, clothes shopping, overseeing homework, transport to lessons, keeping track of stuff. He does take the kid to appointments when I give him instructions.

the nice thing is he doesn't nag me when things fall behind. We don't have lots of visitors so when I get stressed about a dirty house, he says "let it go. No ones coming over. It's not worth getting stressed about."

he manages fine when I travel for work or trips to my elderly parents. He recently became proficient in hair management- kid has very thick, tangled long hair that takes a half hour to detangle after showers. So now I don't come home to matted hair.

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My husband and I have lived together for a total of 10 years and we still do our own laundry. There's no way I'd let anyone else wash my clothes lol.

I feel like subconsciously we end up splitting "gender roles" type chores without realizing it. He always mows the lawn, i always cook and do the dishes. I usually help the littles with bathing, bed time stories,etc. He tends to clean the house more. He fixes shit when it breaks. I do most of the shopping.

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7 hours ago, Kittikatz said:

@JesusCampSongs I've had some very similar experiences, and since then have always evaluated men based on how much time and mental energy they would cost me to keep them around. None of the guys I've dated have been worth the mental weight and hours lost, and all have been indignant and offended when I've tried to talk them through the cost/benefit analysis of why I'd be willing to date, but won't live with or marry them unless I saw some dramatic behaviour changes. Their usual response was flat denial, even when I'd pulled together a sampling  from days they had been in my house, and tracked the additional hours and increased activities they had cost me. 

It's so strange to me how oblivious some people are to their own indolence, and so many of my BFs seemed to take for granted that they were entitled to having someone else cook and clean for them while (happily) managing the minutiae of their lives. It was also very strange to me how they expected praise for doing basic chores and simple tasks, yet when I did those things, it was not worth mentioning. All a huge part of why I can't even be bothered to date. 

This is a conclusion I've come to more recently, but: yep to all of this. I have no intention of ever getting married. When the subject comes up, I tend to frame things in terms of "I'm not the marrying type," and vaguely attribute that sentiment to family issues and bad personal experiences-- my mom's been married four times and I've had a broken engagement in addition to the two bad relationships I described above. Which is more or less the truth. Because of that history, the odds of me being able to have a successful marriage are not in my favor, and I'm sure my unwillingness to tolerate patriarchy-fueled laziness won't help. Accordingly, I don't want to assume the risk of the personal and financial losses that go with divorce. I'd be okay with long-term cohabitation, but there would be Many Discussions on the subject of family roles and boundaries, because I'm nobody's housemaid or nanny or personal assistant. 

One thing I've noticed over the years is that men who were raised by single mothers tend to be better self-managers than men who were raised in the stereotypical nuclear family. I think they internalized gender roles less and had to do more for themselves when their mothers were working, so they don't see cooking and cleaning as women's work and don't expect to be catered to or looked after as much. The worst boyfriends I've ever had when it comes to this issue were the ones who were raised in families where the father worked outside the home and did not contribute to household chores beyond lawn work and the mother either stayed home or worked as a teacher and did the lion's share of cooking, cleaning, and parenting. They had incredibly low self-efficacy when it came to cooking and cleaning up after themselves, and essentially expected to go from living at home to an early marriage in which their wives would assume the same responsibility their mothers had. I seriously once dated a twenty-two-year-old who didn't know how to make a grilled cheese. What even.

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You guys have missed the basic premise of being female and not doing all the work: LOWER YOUR STANDARDS.

 

Seriously. When the husband never lifted a finger to clean our bedroom, I stopped vaccuuming it. He picked it up.

When the kids tossed their stuff all over, I tossed it all into the mudroom. They started taking more time to organize and put away when they had to hunt for it.

And WHO SAYS the kitchen floor has to be mopped daily and scrubbed weekly? Not me.

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1 hour ago, Chocolatedefrauded said:

he manages fine when I travel for work or trips to my elderly parents. He recently became proficient in hair management- kid has very thick, tangled long hair that takes a half hour to detangle after showers. So now I don't come home to matted hair.

Trick someone taught me recently, have a comb or pick in the shower, when you put conditioner on, comb through, then rinse the conditioner, it helps so much!!

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4 hours ago, Scrabblemaster said:

I knew I was my mum's daughter when Aldi changed their system and I was honestly pissed for a couple of days and complained about it even longer, mostly to my mum. 

You and your mum are in good company. Two of the stores around my area are remodeling and moving everything around, and I was ranting to my therapist about it. She told me she'd had several other clients complain about the same thing, that even if the remodeling looks nicer in the end, learning new locations for the cereal and toilet paper makes people angry. It was nice to not feel so alone in my distaste for stores rearranging things.

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17 minutes ago, Honeysuckle said:

You and your mum are in good company. Two of the stores around my area are remodeling and moving everything around, and I was ranting to my therapist about it. She told me she'd had several other clients complain about the same thing, that even if the remodeling looks nicer in the end, learning new locations for the cereal and toilet paper makes people angry. It was nice to not feel so alone in my distaste for stores rearranging things.

There is a Target right next to my house and a Target right next to my work and they are mirror images of each other... you would think this would be simple to deal with because it's actually the same BUT IT'S NOT. IT'S LIKE AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING IS BACKWARDS. 

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9 minutes ago, Casserole said:

IT'S LIKE AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING IS BACKWARDS. 

Good to know there's Target in the Upside Down...

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One of the grocery stores near me recently remodeled. I unknowingly walked in with my list whilst in the midst of a headache, expecting to zone out to a thuroughly mind numbing grocery shop, and wound up so enraged and indignant at the arrangement of isles that I abandoned my cart and stalked out. A year and a half later, and I still haven't been back to that store, and just thinking about the stupid diagonal aisles vexes me. Now I just have groceries delivered. It's better for everyone that way :kitty-wink:

@JesusCampSongs you're right about the men raised in families with traditional general roles being particularly bad at doing for themselves. The most time/effort intensive fellow I ever dated grew up with a father in the diplomatic service and a stay-at-home mum. He grew up living in embassies staffed by servants, and at age 38, literally could not figure out that things like towels and sheets didn't wash themselves and got gross if someone didn't throw them in the laundry. His house was relatively tidy, but dirtier than any place I've been in. The towels were crunchy and there was mold growing in the sink.

 

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1 hour ago, Casserole said:

There is a Target right next to my house and a Target right next to my work and they are mirror images of each other... you would think this would be simple to deal with because it's actually the same BUT IT'S NOT. IT'S LIKE AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING IS BACKWARDS. 

I just moved and this new target is the mirror image of my old one and holy hell was that ever a mind fuck.

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7 hours ago, Scrabblemaster said:

 

@MadeItOut oh my god! I watched the video before this post and it was hilarious! 

 

Her stuff is fabulous - so well observed and elegantly presented. The other awesome one is the trick or treating - or the teenage hussy... Heck, they're all great.

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The one thing that has ALWAYS boosted my confidence secretly: when I was with ex#1, my fundie church 'friend' once admitted that though her husband was very senior with the navy, he could not do a single thing when they first married. - he'd been used to a mother who did everything.

Her major bugbear had been that he would strip off and not put his dirty clothes in the hamper. After weeks of 'appealing' he finally would take them off and toss them on top of the hamper.

She said in the end, the only way she "trained" it into him, was stealing the page 3 girl from the newspaper each day and sticking her to the underside of the lid. Worked a treat apparently.

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4 hours ago, Casserole said:

There is a Target right next to my house and a Target right next to my work and they are mirror images of each other... you would think this would be simple to deal with because it's actually the same BUT IT'S NOT. IT'S LIKE AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING IS BACKWARDS. 

Costco is like that in the two stores I most frequently use.  It drives me batty.  I know the solution is only use one of them, but that doesn't work with my normal shopping excursions.

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Hubby has been home from work since Oct, but under contract for his new restaurant so he's getting paid until it opens. (No projected date, but ugh not soon enough for me! I love him, but his being here so much drives me NUTS ) When he's at work, everything, and I do mean everything, falls to me. 3 kids and all their activities, animals, bills, all the chores that aren't assigned to the kids, the yard. Since he's not been working the only thing he has taken over is making dinner every night, and that's with eye rolls and complaints. But according to him all of that is really no big deal. Thankfully I have an amazing therapist who is helping me manage my stress, work to establish some self-worth and assert myself both more often and in productive ways. And the house nearly fell apart both times I had to be away for more than a day or so. So we see where my role in the house is!

BACK TO THE LAWSUIT- Pickles is showing an Inquisitor article that Springdale has filed a response to the suit, asking it be dismissed on the grounds they were just doing their job?

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Yes, the filing was posted in the Counting On thread perhaps? It was an article in the local Arkansas paper.

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12 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

You guys have missed the basic premise of being female and not doing all the work: LOWER YOUR STANDARDS.

 

Seriously. When the husband never lifted a finger to clean our bedroom, I stopped vaccuuming it. He picked it up.

When the kids tossed their stuff all over, I tossed it all into the mudroom. They started taking more time to organize and put away when they had to hunt for it.

And WHO SAYS the kitchen floor has to be mopped daily and scrubbed weekly? Not me.

I tried that. I was a lot more grossed out about the bathroom not being cleaned for 3 weeks than he was. I don't think he noticed that the bathroom was dirty. 

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