Duggars by the Dozen 29 - A Very Inappropriate Lawsuit

[KelseyAnn]

THe Duggars are like Lin Wood with the lawsuits!

[Fluffy14]

7 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

nd at some point the passive party in abusive parent relations becomes the victimizer too- by choosing to stay. 

I could not agree more.  I have seen this with my own eyes.  spiritual abuse is damaging. Watching a parent cry  or that underlying feeling that something is wrong and you don't know what it is damaging also.  WE all know how damaging this cult it, and then to bring the turd's BS to the table, with all the lawsuits swirling around... it isn't doing her kids any favours. 

[KelseyAnn]

Just now, Fluffy14 said:

I could not agree more.  I have seen this with my own eyes.  spiritual abuse is damaging. Watching a parent cry  or that underlying feeling that something is wrong and you don't know what is damaging also.  WE all know how damaging this cult it, and then to bring the turd's BS to the table, with all the lawsuits swirling around... it isn't doing her kids any favours. 

And poor Mack and poor Meredith are gonna grow up thinking it's okay for them to be treated like garbage all because they have no Y chromosome. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

54 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

He should have taken us and left, which his sisters offered numerous times, and he didn't.

Unless and until you have experienced someone else's situation, from their exact viewpoint, all you're doing is casting judgment and Monday-morning-quarterbacking.

I should have kicked my starter husband out months/years before I did. But there are so many things in real life, in one's head, and in one's unique situation, that resolution to get out can be very hard to come by. It was more than two decades ago, but I still feel guilty that it took me that long to make the decision. And I still feel guilty that my GryffindorDisappointment child is the product of a divorced home.

 

[KelseyAnn]

1 minute ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Unless and until you have experienced someone else's situation, from their exact viewpoint, all you're doing is casting judgment and Monday-morning-quarterbacking.

I should have kicked my started husband out months/years before I did. But there are so many things in real life, in one's head, and in one's unique situation, that resolution to get out can be very hard to come by. It was more than two decades ago, but I still feel guilty that it took me that long to make the decision. And I still feel guilty that my GryffindorDisappointment child is the product of a divorced home.

 

You're allowed to feel how you want to feel about your situation, and I'm allowed to feel how I want to feel about Anna's complicity. I'm sorry you had to go through that, but my post wasn't aimed at you. 

And while I didn't go through the exact same situation, I would argue mine was worse, I can still cast judgment. This is a fundie snark sight. That aside, just because I am not a child abuser does that mean I am not allowed to cast judgement on those who abuse children? 

[KelseyAnn]

22 minutes ago, Fluffy14 said:

I could not agree more.  I have seen this with my own eyes.  spiritual abuse is damaging. Watching a parent cry  or that underlying feeling that something is wrong and you don't know what it is damaging also.  WE all know how damaging this cult it, and then to bring the turd's BS to the table, with all the lawsuits swirling around... it isn't doing her kids any favours. 

Children shouldn't have to sacrifice so that you can have the life you want. You make sacrifices for you children so that they can have the life they deserve.

[just_ordinary]

I have to say that I don't care if Anna decides to stay with a cheater. IF she really forgave him because she lives him! Millions of people give their relationships another chance after cheating. 

I hate that Anna and Josh raise their children in a dangerous cult that will limit their chances and makes them vulnerable for physical and emotional abuse.

The incidents with Josh's sisters and the other girl(s?) are complicated. It is horrible and disgusting and Josh should have gotten real help. There is no excuse! But there is no reason to believe he is still a threat to children. I wish he would speak up and really show that he is sorry for what he did and deeply regrets it. It is hard to see what people really believe and how they really act if you don't know them personally but only through a scripted glimps. I think he knows he is wrong deep inside but choose to stay in the Gothard mindset as the easy way out of the horrible and shameful guilt he should feel. But there is no evidence he is not a somewhat alright father to children. If Anna really can or chooses to live with all his faults than be it. I hope if one of them reaches a point where they just can't anymore they call it off. I can totally see Josh filing for a divorce in five to ten years even if he is getting shunned (maybe even leaving Gothardism/Quiverfull but still fundie).

He should never return to the show again and his take on the lawsuit is just disgusting. He is not the real victim. If they really wanted to make it easier for him they should have let the whole thing rest. 

That not more people see how much this cult destroys lives is just beyond me.

[SapphireSlytherin]

31 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

This is a fundie snark sight.

Ohhhhh!

[JesusPony]

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

Actual photo of what's happening at the Duggar House right now. 

Doubly funny since it was (allegedly) Oprah who started this ball rolling.

[Fluffy14]

I think there is a profound difference between a person who stays in an abusive situation and finds it difficult for a million reasons to get out, than a child who grows up in abuse trying to get out of abuse.  Does that make sense? 

The cycle of abuse is complicated. Staying in an abusive situation as an adult is easier than being in an abusive situation as a child. An adult has choices and a child has none.  And I think it is from that vantage point abused children who have grown in to adults can cast judgement at parents or adults who choose to stay. IN my  mind as an adult who suffered at the hands of my abuser until i was 18-19 and married an verbally abusive, controlling man. I had way more control as an adult to change my situation . To me it is a hollow argument if you are going to compare the two. 

The brain of an adult who did not grow up in abuse has a history to fall back on that is not abusive and through help can hopefully come to get the strength to remove herself despite the obstacles. But a child of abuse has a brain that was forming and getting wired for fear, anger, abandonment issues, anxiety etc.

. When the neuro pathways are developed in abuse, it takes a million good experiences and feelings of safety to rewire that system. 

I don't have an issue blaming or judging a person who keeps their kids in an abusive cycle. I can have compassion for them because it is horrible and difficult to get out, and the pain and fear are real.  But as a trauma survivor myself rewiring the brain, and all the complications that come with abuse from a psychological standpoint, MY OWN sympathies will always be for the children . They have no recourse or choice, there are no options. There are options for adults no matter how scary.  A  parent who grew up in abuse who has not stopped the cycle of abuse and puts their kids in harms way whether it be mental, physical, spiritual, sexual knows how it feels to be in that situation in spite of bad wiring and I think in their deep conscience knows its wrong and they can do better. (I think conscience plays a huge role.)

  I have more compassion for them, but they are adults and have the controls as difficult as it is they too should seek help and stop the cycle. 

I could have beat my kids silly, i could have yelled ,belittled and been an outright bitch. I could have exposed them to what I had growing up but chose not to. There comes a point where you must listen to that conscience and do right.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, JesusPony said:

Doubly funny since it was (allegedly) Oprah who started this ball rolling.

That may or may not have been the reason I went with that picture. 

[Letizia]

18 hours ago, Taylurker said:

Or what about Joshujerk? Joshuass? I can't believe the nerve of this guy.

I'm going for changing Josh to Jouche after the amazing Josh Duggar(is a douche) posts.

[JenniferJuniper]

Anyone who has lived long enough has probably experienced a bad relationship or two.  Some very bad.

Anna's bad relationship, however, is unique for a host of reasons.

First, as we all know, she was a very sheltered fundie girl who was picked for courtin' by a famous fundie boy whose family was on the moving picture box every week.  I'm sure she felt incredibly special, in a way she'd probably never experienced before. Every dream come true.

Her long distance relationship was filmed by a camera crew!  She was famous now too.  Her parents were thrilled.  It must have all been very exciting for her, especially when Josh (somehow) passed muster with Pa Keller.  

Now, when she found out or how much she found about her beau's serial child molestation remains an open question. I'm guessing she knew a heck of a lot less than Pa did though and it was probably put down to a mild, inappropriate youthful indiscretion that really amounted to nothing.  So, pay no attention to that bright red flag, there's so much to do!

She marries along to the Loyalty Song, gets a house,  gives birth to babies, moves to DC where she attends political events in nice dresses.  And much of this is broadcast on TV - toilet birth included.  Articles in People Magazine. Free trips to awesome places.  She gets better and more comfortable at the TV stuff.  Money and nice things are flowing in ways she couldn't have imagined growing up.  She probably felt that her life would always be like this.

Then the news hits.  Josh molested five girls, including five year old Joy Anna who was 10 years his junior. I don't really know about her relationship with the older sisters-in-law, but how could she not like, even love, sweet Joy Anna at this point?  I doubt Anna had the wherewithal to process the terrible mistakes her in-laws made in handling the situation, but with one daughter already and one arriving shortly how could she not at least have some fears, even unvoiced or unacknowledged ones?

The job is gone.  The DC house is gone. The show is gone.  She has no home except for whatever Jim Bob chooses to give them.  Is Josh expressing any remorse, any shame?  We'll probably never know, but I'm going to bet he was more angry than ashamed.  But I'll bet Anna felt some shame and a lot of apprehension at this point.

Before she can catch her breath, she finds out he cheated on her.  With who, how many times almost doesn't matter. She believed the Loyalty Song.  He worked for the Family Research Council espousing right wing fundie family values! And yet he wanted other women. And not for weird, kinky stuff that she wasn't into.  Just regular sex with nice chats and bath bubbles.  Did he even practice safe sex?   She was pregnant!

I can't imagine the shame and failure and rejection she felt and must still feel.  She's been raised to believe she's responsible for all of her husband's sexual needs and he's out looking elsewhere for no frills sex and bubble baths. And worse still, the whole friggin' world knows about it.  Literally.

And they know he molested little Joy and four young other girls.

We all see things through our own prism, and I get the argument that Anna doesn't understand that she has options.  I don't want to revisit the "Is Josh a pedophile" thing because all indications are he isn't.  As far as we can know.  But when you put all of this shit together and step back for a moment, I can't see how any sane person could conclude that Josh is ever going to be a good husband and provider. He's a lazy, selfish, dishonest person.  Anna is sane and I have no doubt that her sane siblings have laid this out for her.  And we know her parents won't reject her.

She's been on TV for years now.  And in magazines.  She is a million miles away from that sheltered little fundie girl.  She knows her story will sell and sell well if she chooses to market it properly.   I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't have that kind of an option when I left my first husband.

So, yeah, I basically think she's being foolish for acting like all is well and pretending Josh is really who she thought she married.  And with each passing year and each additional mouth to feed, things are only going to get harder for her. 

(PS, Anna - he's not going to win any money in that lawsuit.  Just more shame.)

 

 

[MadeItOut]

I'm at that point where the discussion is just a step too wild for me to stay healthy right now, so I'm going to take a breath and sleep before opening my mouth again.

I do stand by my previously (and currently) held position that it is never okay to heap on any victim/survivor's timetable, whether or not children are involved. Every child also has other adults in their world and then there's DCFS and law enforcement too. It's just not on to add to what any victim/survivor is dealing with.

The other thing I will say is, Patrick Stewart is a fantastic resource for measured and accurate perspective on children in DV scenarios - and also as a male child of a male aggressor.

[Fluffy14]

34 minutes ago, MadeItOut said:

Every child also has other adults in their world and then there's DCFS and law enforcement too

I had to go check the rules about what I could post about. I had a list of my own examples of how this is not feasible but refrain because I would get kicked off. This is not a true statement not every child has other adults in their lives who are safe. 

[KelseyAnn]

12 minutes ago, Fluffy14 said:

I had to go check the rules about what I could post about. I had a list of my own examples of how this is not feasible but refrain because I would get kicked off. This is not a true statement not every child has other adults in their lives who are safe. 

I sure as hell didn't. In fact CPS knowingly allowed us girls to live in a home where sexual abuse was known to have happened. All to often kids slip through the cracks, and it's not okay. 

[Trynn]

Yeah, I don't trust CPS after they pretty much allowed my step uncle to use my cousin as a punching bag.

Now you can argue whether or not that's a dig at CPS, but regardless of how or why it happened, it happened. Children don't have enough recourse.

[SilverBeach]

6 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

When has Anna neglected her kids? Compared to say Michelle, she's rather involved. 

Anna appears to take good care of the M kids. The problem is raising the kids in the shitty cult, with that thing for a father. One day the kids will know the truth, and hopefully not lose respect for their mother because she let him treat her so poorly. It's bad enough that they will one day learn that their father molested their aunts.  Ugh.

[Fluffy14]

Adults  hold all the cards. A child has no recourse. Even if a child does disclose , abusive adults who are smart and clever know how to cover their tracks. When people in authority who hold power in your community are also partaking in abuse there is simply no out.  

This can also be in the case of fundamentalist homes. If they go to the church leaders or pastors they are often shot down by religious gibberish to save the perp.

[VelociRapture]

@MadeItOutIf it's too much for you right now then stepping back is a really good decision. You need to look after you first. You can always jump back in when you feel up to it.

40 minutes ago, Fluffy14 said:

I had to go check the rules about what I could post about. I had a list of my own examples of how this is not feasible but refrain because I would get kicked off. This is not a true statement not every child has other adults in their lives who are safe. 

You and @KelseyAnn are right. Not every abused child will have adults in their life capable of helping them. I wish that wasn't true, but it is. One pretty relevant example is the Duggar daughters -

Two of them were abused by their brother and their parents covered it up to protect him. Their failure to act allowed him the opportunity to abuse two more daughters, one who was just five and another who was so traumatized that she cried when asked about it several years later. Then, instead of seeking help from law enforcement, they turned to Church Elders who all agreed that Josh Duggar (who wants some cheese for his whine) should get Prayhab rather than real therapy. By the time law enforcement did get involved, it was far too late for them to do anything to help any of the children (victim or offender.) 

Sure, there may have been other adults willing to help. Maybe Aunt Deanna or a grandparent. But these children had been raised in a cult that preached secrecy and that, ultimately, sexual assault is the fault of the female victim because she did something to tempt the male attacker (who somehow lacks any self-control; pardon me while I vomit into my mouth.) That kind of twisted logic and self-blame could have made it next to impossible for those children to seek help or realize telling another adult was an option, especially if they had been convinced that their parents had handled everything properly (as Jill and Jessa, at least, appear to believe.)

[HarryPotterFan]

2 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

That kind of twisted logic and self-blame could have made it next to impossible for those children to seek help or realize telling another adult was an option, especially if they had been convinced that their parents had handled everything properly (as Jill and Jessa, at least, appear to believe.)

Fuck, even without the twisted logic they were raised in, if a sexually abused child tells an adult about the abuse and the adult doesn't seem to care or think it's a big deal, why would they trust another adult would? It's hard and scary enough seeking an adult he first time. If the adult plays it down, it just gives the child another trauma to deal with.

I say this as someone who reported sexual assault by another student to a teacher, who completely played it down and didn't do anything. It made me think I was making a big deal out of nothing, and left 12 year-old me to deal with the trauma on my own. So fuck her and Boob and OfBoob to the depths of hell.

[Fluffy14]

The very nature of the lack of proper teaching regarding development, sex, and absurd sexual obsessions around fertility, purity are abusive. The child has no vocabulary to express what their inner voice is telling them is wrong. I am sure this varies from home to home.  It just creates a breeding ground for predators. the part that gets me in fundie circles is that the environment they created for purity is the very environment that enables the abuse, and yet nobody has the brains to look at it and say wait, this isn't working.  The Duggars had a major breakdown in their methods but instead of blaming the methods or doctrine they keep the cycle moving forward. I swear they all cashed in their brains,  at the collection plate when it got passed around.

ps When they are told sex is like Lego.....how does a child who hears this able to process anything ?

[KelseyAnn]

1 minute ago, Fluffy14 said:

. the part that gets me in fundie circles is that the environment they created for purity is the very environment that enables the abuse,"  

Very aptly put. 

Just like the Duggar girls, I was taught my body was not my own, it belonged to men. So when men started taking advantage of me, I knew I had to give in- because I didn't own myself- men did. 

 

 

[Fluffy14]

1 hour ago, KelseyAnn said:

just like the Duggar girls, I was taught my body was not my own, it belonged to men. So when men started taking advantage of me, I knew I had to give in- because I didn't own myself- men did. 

 

And when they Phuck with your mind so much you are not even a part of your body because you have nicely dissociated yourself into another time and place....well then nothing is your own. Not even your mind.

Which by the way is another tactic the Fundamentalist believes ...but in a more conscious way. More in the lines of attitude, and spirituality. 

But when you become an adult you do know the difference between right and wrong.  Case in point with the Duggars. They are not absolutely ignorant when the  shit hits the fan and  they hide any evidence they can out there on the internet. Such as Michelle scrubbing her pages about blanket training.  They know. They just choose to keep abusing. they change behaviour when we all comment online.  Even now , for the last 2wks they have been posting fluff pictures of babies, Michelle the attentive mother and other stupid things to deflect and keep the people from focusing on the crap hitting the fan. 

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Josh Duggar (is a douche) was growing on me, but I think Josh Duggar (should've been swallowed) is the winner.