Joy and Austin: Pikes Peak or Bust?

[BoPeep]

3 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

Excuse me? I was born, raised, and still live in Alabama. It is most definitely called the Civil War here by the vast majority. The War of Nothern Aggression is primarily used by ignorant ass racists. I am not one of them, and don't associate with them.

Funny, cause I never heard it referred to as such UNTIL I moved to Alabama.  

[mpheels]

We really do a huge disservice to ourselves with terribly biased and oversimplified teaching of the Civil War, both in the North and the South.

Too many people in the South like to dismiss or minimize the role of slavery in the war. Yes, there were other issues, but if you start tracing the underlying causes of most of the grievances claimed by Southern states, all roads lead to slavery.

Too many people in the North like to gloss over the racist histories of their own communities. For most of the 17th and 18th centuries, Northern cities profited greatly from the slave trade and from export of agricultural goods produced with slave labor. 

The South fired the first shots, starting the war. They also bore the brunt of the battles in terms of lost civilian lives and property. Many of the acts committed by Union soldiers at the end of the would be considered war crimes today. Following the war, the South hampered their own recovery, rather than see Black people thrive.

The South codified racism with Jim Crow and segregation. The North did it with redlining and institutional racism in private business.

In 21st century USA, we have deep seated issues with racism, but we also have a lot of people who are blind to the issues. They think racism was solved because they don't use racial slurs or that have friends of all races. They are blind to issues of institutional racism and the pervasive effects of generational poverty.

[VelociRapture]

Regarding the Racism/Civil War Drift:

My ancestor fought for the Union. He took part in the battle of Gettysburg as well as the siege of Atlanta and Sherman's March to the Sea.

Am I proud he fought for the Union? Absolutely. Am I proud he fought at Gettysburg? Yes. Am I proud he may have taken part in what we would now define as war crimes? No. Absolutely not. I can understand why he may have (due to orders or anger over the war, etc.) but I do not condone those actions nor will I ever be proud of them.

It is entirely possible to be simultaneously proud of your family history, while also acknowledging the deep wrongs they may have done. It seems as if some very vocal Southerners missed that important distinction while they were busy insisting the North is completely at fault.*

Notes:

1. Yes, I'm sure there are Northerners just as stupid about their side as some Southerners are about their's.

2. Yes, the North acted stupidly at times. And yes, I do see why Southerners at the time felt so angry and ignored. But at the end of the day, the driving reason behind the outbreak of the Civil War was the argument over slavery. Anyone arguing against that is simply incorrect.

3. A Southerner wanting to remember their ancestor isn't an issue to me. I think it's natural to want to know where you came from and want to remember where you're from. A Southerner wanting to honor the Confederacy is a problem for me though because the Confederacy was a treasonous Government created to uphold the institution of slavery. 

*This is not referring to anyone specific. Just an observation over the years that some Southerners (possibly a minority of Southerners) are very vocal about the North being the evil villain and the South being the helpless victim. And I'm also aware there are Northerners just as bad who insist Racism was never a problem up here as well.

[Lurker]

The thing about the Civil War that I did not realize until I visited Atlanta is still real and present to some people   It is just sad history to us in the North.

 

[MarblesMom]

3 hours ago, subsaharanafrica said:

why are the Navajo Nation in need of pot holders?

It is part of the Solar Oven Partners projects... http://www.solarovenpartnersumc.org/

They send potholders with the ovens.

[HereticHick]

8 hours ago, BoPeep said:

I first heard it called the War of Northern Aggression when I moved to the deep south.  It is not called the Civil War down here.

Bullshit.  Have you ever spoken to a person of color in the deep south??  You did notice that all not all your fellow citizens were white, correct? 

We sure as F**K do not call it the "War of Northern Aggression"

[BoPeep]

1 minute ago, HereticHick said:

Bullshit.  Have you ever spoken to a person of color in the deep south??  You did notice that all not all your fellow citizens were white, correct? 

We sure as F**K do not call it the "War of Northern Aggression"

I suppose I should have said that down here is where I first heard it, and have heard it corrected many times from civil war to calling it the war of northern aggression...to the point where it seemed all called it such.  A generalization on my part.  Again, I didn't realize this was considered a racially charged term until reading in here.  Perhaps this is because the main people we've heard use the term are pro states rights.  They aren't people who bandy about racist talk, thoughts, or lingo (and believe me....the N word will fly when someone is overtly racist), and so I didn't connect racism with the northern aggression term.  

[HarryPotterFan]

My dad grew up in the 1950s south beig taught about "the War of Northern Agression" with no mention of slavery. So yeah, to me that term goes hand in hand with Jim Crow era ideologies.

[HurricaneBells]

As an Aussie, what an interesting thread drift! I knew of slavery and the civil war of course but there were some awesome insights in these comments and I appreciate the education! The Sons and Daughters of the confederacy....  (hope I got that right off the top of my head!). I know I have heard that before too. Are these the.... groups/associations that you can only join if you are of true southerner blood/from southern fam? No offence intended if this is worded wrongly or I have it wrong!

[SapphireSlytherin]

4 minutes ago, HurricaneBells said:

you can only join if you are of true southerner blood/from southern fam?

No. You can be a "true southerner" or from a "southern fam" and not be eligible. The despicable rules are:

DoC:  women at least 16 years of age who are lineal or collateral blood descendants of men and women who served honorably in the Army, Navy, or Civil Service of the Confederate States of America, or who gave Material Aid to the Cause. Women who were adopted are eligible only through the bloodline of the biological parent. Also eligible are those women who are lineal or collateral blood descendants of members or former members of UDC.

No Confederate ancestor who took the Oath of Allegiance before April 9, 1865, shall be eligible to be used for application for membership. If proof of further Confederate service is available, thereby nullifying the Oath of Allegiance, the ancestor shall be considered for approval.

************************

SoCV:  Sons of Confederate Veterans is open to all male descendants of any veteran who served honorably in the Confederate armed forces. Membership can be obtained through either lineal or collateral family lines and kinship to a veteran must be documented genealogically. The minimum age for full membership is 12, but there is no minimum for Cadet membership.

Applicants should submit an application form, along with a detailed genealogy describing your relationship to the veteran, and proof of his service.

[SuhrEnity]

2 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

No. You can be a "true southerner" or from a "southern fam" and not be eligible. The despicable rules are:

WOOOOOOOW. This is ... well I have no words. Really.

I'm Canadian and have fleeting knowledge of the civil war. I knew what it was about (slavery) but I had no idea about all the different names for it or how deeply ingrained it still is. Everyday I learn more and more about why some of what Trump said led to his win. Today has been so educational to me

[HereticHick]

1 hour ago, BoPeep said:

I suppose I should have said that down here is where I first heard it, and have heard it corrected many times from civil war to calling it the war of northern aggression...to the point where it seemed all called it such.  A generalization on my part.  Again, I didn't realize this was considered a racially charged term until reading in here.  Perhaps this is because the main people we've heard use the term are pro states rights.  They aren't people who bandy about racist talk, thoughts, or lingo (and believe me....the N word will fly when someone is overtly racist), and so I didn't connect racism with the northern aggression term.  

But you were only interacting with white people, yes?

[SilverBeach]

@JesusCampSongs, will you marry me? You have kept me from simply saying f you to slavery apologists who are not enlightened enough to acknowledge their racism.

 As the saying goes, if the south hadn't started nothing, there wouldn't have been nothing. The south fired that first shot at Ft.  Sumpter (sp). Its suffering pales in comparison to that imposed upon my ancestors by the evils of chattel slavery, the biggest of which was the destruction of family.

Never had sex in a tent, not planning on it, not the outdoorsy type. My first time was in a bed.

[BoPeep]

8 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

But you were only interacting with white people, yes?

Yes, I was (in instances where northern aggression was used).  I don't see the war discussed much among mixed racial groups down here....not amongst locals.  In the military circles, the war is discussed when the group (mixed racial) is friends or mostly friends.  But the military groups don't call it the northern aggression, the locals do.  

[SilverBeach]

5 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

But you were only interacting with white people, yes?

Therin lies the problem. Living in an echo chamber.

[OldFadedStar]

2 minutes ago, SuhrEnity said:

WOOOOOOOW. This is ... well I have no words. Really.

I'm Canadian and have fleeting knowledge of the civil war. I knew what it was about (slavery) but I had no idea about all the different names for it or how deeply ingrained it still is. 

 

Technically... the civil war was about states rights. 10th amendment states that "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

So technically, because the issue of slavery wasn't a part of the constitution the southern states believed that the issue of slavery was a states issue and the federal government should stay out. Big fed government vs small fed government kind of thing,

But it does kinda ultimately come down to the fact that the south believed that the federal government had no right to control anything about slavery. So technically it is about slavery but not 100%. 

I took a three week, 15 hours a week, course on just the civil war and the issues leading up to it. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

My father's family fought for the confederacy. My 70 year old father is still a racist from the south, though he has lived in Iowa since 1974.  I spent my 1st 4 years in OK & AR, not that I remember much. My parents are both racist but my mom is from the north, and her family didn't come from Germany until the  early 20th century.  Both my mom & dad call it the Civil war, my grandfather called it the Civil War (his grandfather and great uncles fought for the south) but I've  only ever heard the term WONA since I was a child from old movies, like Gone With the Wind, which is my mom's favorite movie ever. 

I know many people from south of the Mason Dixon line, and I don't know any of them who use the term Northern Aggression unless it is a joke.  I know that is how I use it when talking with friends from  all over even the south. They are not fans of the Antebellum south and make no claims to romanticize it but do in joy mocking it with an exaggerated southern drawl, pearl clutching, smelling salts and fainting couches.  I will add that the folks I know from the South are folks I met in College or through work, and I don't doubt for a second that there are those racist folks out there who do still use that phrase as though the war was yesterday  and they are still mad they lost. 

I think this has turned into a liberal witch hunt, one person got her panties in a bunch jumped the person who said it and others gang pied on.  As fun as thread drift is perhaps we should drift on to more fun topics. 

[SilverBeach]

1 minute ago, BoPeep said:

Yes, I was.  I don't see the war discussed much among mixed racial groups down here....not amongst locals.  In the military circles, the war is discussed when the group (mixed racial) is friends or mostly friends.  But the military groups don't call it the northern aggression, the locals do.  

Black people don't see the antebellum south and civil war as the glory days the way many southern whites do, or even northern whites for that matter. Not looking to constantly relive that shit.

[OldFadedStar]

Also, I live in Charleston, SC where slavery was a big deal back in the day. Heck, SC was the first state to secede and the war started here at Fort Sumter. It's an interesting vibe here... they seem to be proud of their heritage and they discuss slavery but they also make sure to say that it's a horrible thing. They tend to accept it's part of their history and by not discussing what happened then it's minimizing the awfulness of it. 

And then you have the discussion about if Plantations should still be opened or not, despite not having any slaves today, because of their part in slavery....

[SuhrEnity]

1 minute ago, OldFadedStar said:

I took a three week, 15 hours a week, course on just the civil war and the issues leading up to it. 

I totally feel like doing some reading after reading this thread. Our history here is so different (not to say we have no bad stuff or no racism in our past or present cause that's a blatant lie, we're not utopia) but ours is a little less of a chequered past I think

[SilverBeach]

1 minute ago, OldFadedStar said:

Technically... the civil war was about states rights. 10th amendment states that "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

So technically, because the issue of slavery wasn't a part of the constitution the southern states believed that the issue of slavery was a states issue and the federal government should stay out. Big fed government vs small fed government kind of thing,

But it does kinda ultimately come down to the fact that the south believed that the federal government had no right to control anything about slavery. So technically it is about slavery but not 100%. 

I took a three week, 15 hours a week, course on just the civil war and the issues leading up to it. 

I am a history buff. Lincoln's mission was to preserve the union, he didn't give a rat's ass about slavery or the slaves. He freed them as an effort to weaken the south, not from some great moral imperative.

Good old states rights, also code for racism. 

2 minutes ago, OldFadedStar said:

Also, I live in Charleston, SC where slavery was a big deal back in the day. Heck, SC was the first state to secede and the war started here at Fort Sumter. It's an interesting vibe here... they seem to be proud of their heritage and they discuss slavery but they also make sure to say that it's a horrible thing. They tend to accept it's part of their history and by not discussing what happened then it's minimizing the awfulness of it. 

And then you have the discussion about if Plantations should still be opened or not, despite not having any slaves today, because of their part in slavery....

White folks are proud. Talk to some of the Black folks. Those Confederate flags and shit are offensive.

[melon]

I also live near Charleston SC,my ancestors were slave owners and fought in the Civil War.I am not proud of my heritage,I am ashamed of it.I am related to an asshole racist who had a school named after him in another part of SC,he mistreated his slaves..and was involved in a scandal regarding his nieces...the 5 girls never married ,their reputation was "tarnished".I have no words.

[BoPeep]

3 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Therin lies the problem. Living in an echo chamber.

I edited my response, cause the term was used when we were around other white people, not that this is the only company we keep.  I'm a history buff, and enjoy seeing different view points, and am always curious about why someone would believe this or that, or follow certain ways.  In my curiousity, I saw there were some reasons why some people felt strongly one way, while others felt strongly in another.  I don't follow other people's beliefs or practices, but listen and hear their personal reasons, and sift through some of it.  This northern aggression term was first heard by me in the deep south....it's not MY term.  It's not MY war, either (I joke that my relatives came to the US from germany after the civil war, but before the world wars....and settled in the north).  Yet, collectively, as an American....it affects us all...the scars run deep, the pain is real, and too many have been hurt.   Too many.

[OldFadedStar]

3 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

White folks are proud. Talk to some of the Black folks. Those Confederate flags and shit are offensive.

 

Luckily I haven't seen any confederate flags here. But I did move here after the church shooting. 

I have a friend who is african american who hates Charleston because of the fact that the plantations are still up and running. I also have friends who want street names changed downtown because some streets are named after confederate people (Calhoun for instance). It's definitely interesting in Charleston. 

[BoPeep]

8 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Black people don't see the antebellum south and civil war as the glory days the way many southern whites do, or even northern whites for that matter. Not looking to constantly relive that shit.

And I don't blame anyone for not wanting to relive it.  It was horrid and disgusting....and horridness still exists in too many hearts.  I hate how human beings can so readily toss others aside as worthless.  Every person has worth, and every person should know that they are worthy and beautiful and needed by this world.

And forgive me if my curiousity about the nuances of the war has caused hurt.  That was never my intention.  

As said earlier, this is something our nation still has not healed from.  May our country, our people, find healing from the deep scars others have caused.  And may those with scars continue in strength.