Seewalds 23: Visiting Waco Again

[December]

Cold brew's definitely coffee in that context.

It's a nice Father's Day message, especially with all her emphasis on him being a hands-on dad. I agree with @Lurky that the message is surprising coming from a Duggar. Though, I have to admit that I don't know how you'd maintain patriarchal beliefs long term despite seeing the capability of a man to care for his kids and the positives of that involvement on their upbringing and your relationship.

[marmalade]

Jessa posted that message to Boob last  year. Honey, we don't forget around here.

[nst]

9 minutes ago, marmalade said:

Jessa posted that message to Boob last  year. Honey, we don't forget around here.

I am so glad you remembered that as well - because I swear it was dejavu 

[meowfundiecatz]

3 hours ago, December said:

Cold brew's definitely coffee in that context.

It's a nice Father's Day message, especially with all her emphasis on him being a hands-on dad. I agree with @Lurky that the message is surprising coming from a Duggar. Though, I have to admit that I don't know how you'd maintain patriarchal beliefs long term despite seeing the capability of a man to care for his kids and the positives of that involvement on their upbringing and your relationship.

I want to say it was Instagram where Jessa posted about the cold brewing process. IIRC, she likes it more because it tastes less acidic.

[KelseyAnn]

16 hours ago, socalrules said:

So am I the only one who wondered who actually wrote that? It's miles ahead of anything I have ever seen a Duggar write.

 

Wasn't it Jessa who was actually in charge of education at the TTH? If that's the case she might just be capable. 

[Carm_88]

10 hours ago, marmalade said:

Jessa posted that message to Boob last  year. Honey, we don't forget around here.

Hahah, well there are only so many things that you can say about Boob. "Thanks for humping my Mom on a mini golf course to tease my boyfriend?"  

[Flossie]

19 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

Wasn't it Jessa who was actually in charge of education at the TTH? If that's the case she might just be capable. 

I think she mostly made sure the other kids were logged onto their computers.  She might have corrected their homework, but if it was multiple choice stuff, she didn't really have to do much.  I don't know if she actually sat down with any of the kids and helped them understand things that they were confused about.

But really, even if Jessa tried her very best, she was too young and too undereducated herself to be expected to properly teach anyone else.

I wouldn't even attempt to homeschool, and I graduated from an evil public high school and went to college.  I know that I don't know enough to teach.

[Carm_88]

Spurgeon wants out! Henry is mildly
Amused

[FlamingFundie]

5 hours ago, Flossie said:

I wouldn't even attempt to homeschool, and I graduated from an evil public high school and went to college.  I know that I don't know enough to teach.

And it is THAT attitude right there that makes me sad. So many parents feel they are not adequate enough to teach their children and as a result end up leaving them in public institutions full of peer pressure, bullying, and suicidal/homicidal classmates. Even my husband, who has a master's degree in education and taught as a public school teacher, has insisted from day one that we avoid putting our child in such an institution as the public school system. Why on Earth someone would think they should leave their child in an institution that made the parents themselves feel inadequate is beyond me. Story after story after story in my homeschool groups about how a child was given an IEP and still never received the resources or attention they needed, so they continued to be shuffled along. Or what about others--the gifted ones who are so incredibly bored that they stop trying. What about the students who are academically all over the place: perhaps they are reading at two grade levels behind their peers, but two grade levels ahead in mathematics. What do you do then?? Sure, there are a few star pupils who have the support system and desire to shove ahead and do what needs to be done, but a great many I dare say fall to the wayside. These students more often than not absolutely thrive in a nurturing environment where their needs are met and their particular learning styles are fostered. For a general, run-of-the-mill parent who genuinely wants to help their child succeed, homeschooling is both the easiest and hardest job. I don't know much about biology and chemistry, but I feel confident that once my child reaches that point I can help her find the answers or at the very least I can find the appropriate person to help her, which would most likely be someone who caters to her particular learning style and has a zest for learning themselves rather than a standard this-is-who-you-get teacher who has greater things to worry about.

Not all who homeschool are religious nutjobs wanting to protect their child(ren) under the patriarchal umbrella. A great many see the plight in our public school systems and give a hearty "Hell no." And with the digital age of social media, it's easier than ever to connect with fellow homeschoolers. Co-ops are everywhere nowadays too, though finding secular ones is much more tricky as I have discovered to my dismay. I threw that in there because there are surely people who will pull out the "socialization" card, as if we still live in the 70's.... *rolls eyes*

By following her pace, her learning style (which is different than my own, I will admit), and meeting her needs, my daughter (who will be five this week) is reading at a solid 2nd grade level, works easily with first grade level math, and has spent the past month reading all she can about mummies of ancient Egypt as we plow our way through a first grade Ancient History program. Go ahead and tell me I should chuck her into FUCKING KINDERGARTEN where she will be so bored it won't even be funny. And that's all because I have the desire to see her succeed and most importantly to love learning (which is clear she does). Go ahead and tell me I have failed her, that I am ill-equipped to educate her because I don't have a degree in teaching, or that she will never amount to anything because I haven't tossed her to the wolves.

For a great many children, public school is the only option. I get that. But insisting that a parent who has a vested interest in their child and doesn't have to cater to 30 kids with different backgrounds, different lifestyles, different skill levels, different interests, etc. cannot educate said child is a sad state and shows to a small degree just how single-minded our society has become in regards to education.

If anyone with children is willing to spare a few hours of their life, I highly recommend the book "Hold On To Your Kids" by Gordon Neufeld. If you can look past the very superficial religious undertone, there are some pretty solid points in regards to how detrimental it can be for a child to look more to their peers for social skills rather than well-adjusted, caring adults.

ETA: It might make a difference in responses to point out that I am our child's educator, not my husband. I teach our child, I research methods and materials to best suit her learning style, I execute our daily schedule. So before someone throws in "well your husband is a teacher, he teaches your child," that is not the case whatsoever, and this is how our family works best. Thankyouverymuch.

[Screamapillar]

Meh, I went to public school and I loved it. Sometimes I was bored and sometimes I was challenged. That's life.

But I'll go ahead and call my Mom up and chastise her for tossing me to the wolves in FUCKING KINDERGARTEN. I'm sure she'll love that.

 

[VelociRapture]

@FlamingFundie

If homeschooling works for you and your kid that's great. But it's not tossing a kid to the wolves to enroll them in public school. As you said, it's the only real option for a lot of families in this country. Some kids thrive in public school and others don't. Some kids thrive being homeschooled and others don't. Just do what's best for your kid and let other parents do the same.

[Carm_88]

Public school definitely has it's ups and downs, but it teaches you as well. There are going to be people there that you will never get along with, teachers who don't see things your way, activities that you must participate in whether you like them or not. I didn't always love school but when do you ever love something 100% of the time? And these are all skills that you need to know in the real world because adulting sucks. 

[mydoggoskeeper]

57 minutes ago, FlamingFundie said:

And it is THAT attitude right there that makes me sad. So many parents feel they are not adequate enough to teach their children and as a result end up leaving them in public institutions full of peer pressure, bullying, and suicidal/homicidal classmates.

Its amusing that in your defense of homeschooling where you rail against common stereotypes of homeschooling, you use sweeping -- and harsh -- characterizations to malign public schools.  

 

[Georgiana]

@FlamingFundie

Peer pressure, bullying, and interaction with people with mental illnesses are all things that EVERYONE will eventually have to face.  Some people believe that exposure to these things as children is NECESSARY and HELPFUL preparation for handling them successfully as adults.  And WHY ON EARTH you would think exposure to someone who is considering harming themselves would be harmful to someone else beats me entirely.  I don't think you have a good grasp on mental illness at all.  I personally would LIKE my children to be exposed to that so that they learn a compassionate attitude towards mental health.  

I was often bored in grade school.  I begged to be homeschooled.  My mother refused, and I am now forever grateful for that.  While academically gifted, I needed the social exposure.  Sure, it wasn't always fun or easy.  Some learning experiences hurt.  But I am a better person for it.

I don't think anyone here thinks that homeschooling is by default bad or failing a child.  However, I do know from my own education that it is very important that teachers be extremely well educated.  Even primary students can ask tough questions, and it's important to answer those well to encourage curiosity.  I also think it is important for a child to be exposed to different grading/requirement systems so that they learn how to adjust to different expectations.  

If it works for your family, great.  But I for one ABSOLUTELY want my child in a main-stream school and to be taught by people with advanced degrees and state certification.  Teachers are special people, and I am not one of them, despite my otherwise excellent education.

[karen77]

1 minute ago, Georgiana said:

@FlamingFundie

Peer pressure, bullying, and interaction with people with mental illnesses are all things that EVERYONE will eventually have to face.  Some people believe that exposure to these things as children is NECESSARY and HELPFUL preparation for handling them successfully as adults.  And WHY ON EARTH you would think exposure to someone who is considering harming themselves would be harmful to someone else beats me entirely.  I don't think you have a good grasp on mental illness at all.  I personally would LIKE my children to be exposed to that so that they learn a compassionate attitude towards mental health.  

I was often bored in grade school.  I begged to be homeschooled.  My mother refused, and I am now forever grateful for that.  While academically gifted, I needed the social exposure.  Sure, it wasn't always fun or easy.  Some learning experiences hurt.  But I am a better person for it.

I don't think anyone here thinks that homeschooling is by default bad or failing a child.  However, I do know from my own education that it is very important that teachers be extremely well educated.  Even primary students can ask tough questions, and it's important to answer those well to encourage curiosity.  I also think it is important for a child to be exposed to different grading/requirement systems so that they learn how to adjust to different expectations.  

If it works for your family, great.  But I for one ABSOLUTELY want my child in a main-stream school and to be taught by people with advanced degrees and state certification.  Teachers are special people, and I am not one of them, despite my otherwise excellent education.

Plus, it exposes kids to people with other backgrounds and lifestyles, economic and otherwise, which is a good thing. We don't get to just live in a perfect bubble our whole lives (Duggars anyone?)

[VineHeart137]

@FlamingFundie

Speaking as someone who does not plan on putting her child(ren) in public school, I do not believe that people who put their kids in public schools are "tossing them to the wolves". To act like great, and even excellent, public schools don't exist is absurd. I also don't believe anyone said that all people who homeschool but don't have a teaching degree are failing their children.

Like I said, I'm not even planning on sending my kids to public school and yet I somehow still feel a little defensive at the tone of your post. The person you quoted said they do not feel equipped to homeschool their children. There is nothing wrong with that. Homeschooling isn't for everyone. Sending your child to public school doesn't automatically make you a terrible parent, which is how your post comes across to me. I'm just going to chalk it up to you feeling very strongly about this subject, along with tone being hard to read on the internet.

[Georgiana]

And lets not pretend that public school and homeschool are your only options.  Many people also have the option of private schools, where you can select a school that works best for your child.  Some public systems also have charter and magnet schools as options.  

And it's not like you can't supplement your child's education, no matter WHAT method you choose.  

But people don't just choose public schools because they HAVE to.  Some people choose to mainstream school their children because it is honestly what is best for their child.  Kids have different needs, and for a child who is behind in certain areas, exposure to the scholastic social environment is essential.  

[2manyKidzzz]

I never wanted to homeschool my now-grown children. They attended public and some Catholic schools.

However, I had decided that If I ever saw that they were being bullied beyond say 2-3 weeks and the school would/could not fix it, I would homeschool until a better situation could be found. This never happened. Well, actually yes in just preschool it did happen and I pulled my sweet child out completely. The teacher was an idiot. She basically said she could not control the kids. I personally could have, so I was done. 

[FlamingFundie]

Bah, I got off the rails there, didn't I? My apologies. I read all your responses and then re-read my own post and didn't notice initially (and with two edited additions for clarification) that the tone does come across quite harshly. It started as a response that education comes in many forms and doesn't necessarily mean one must have an advanced degree, but I got on a defensive, unfortunate roll so to speak and my main point was not conveyed. Again, my apologies. Im just so used to having to defend myself as a secular homeschooler-- anti-homeschoolers think our family must be super religious and want to shelter our child from the real world; and religious homeschoolers can't understand why we spend our time exposing our child to ideas such as homosexuality, different religions, avoiding gender stereotyping, and various cultural beliefs. My quills stood up unnecessarily.

I stand by my observations that public school as a whole needs much work and has gone terribly wrong even since our own days, though I do agree with the poster who mentioned there are good public schools. There are, but not nearly enough.

There are bad people in all walks of life. No one way is perfect, I agree. There are good homeschooling families and there are good public schools.

Bah, I need to get off the internet today lol. I certainly don't want to blow up again.

[kacarlton]

Pasting Jessa's Father's Day message to Ben under the spoiler.
Spoiler I know it's Father's Day and not "Husband's Day"... but since our kids are young and can't say much, I want to give a shoutout to my best friend! I love the love that you have for our boys. They adore you. I think it's the sweetest thing on earth to see you take them up in your arms, hug them, and kiss them as you whisper "Daddy loves you."Henry thinks you're the best (as do I), and his little face lights up when you talk to him. Spurgeon looks forward to you coming home from work, and when he hears you pulling in the driveway he gets excited and does his little happy dance! You're never too tired after a hard days work to take on Spurgeon in a wrestling match. He laughs and thinks it's just the greatest thing when you let him tackle you! You get down on the kids' level to build block towers and read books. And I think Spurgeon would agree, you're way better than me at making all the different voices of the characters you read about during story-time. 
You've changed countless diapers, and let's be real-- I heard you holler from the changing table that "Mr. Pebblesmith needs to lay off the Goldfish and eat some prunes." He did. And it worked. Ha! You've dealt with diarrhea and diaper rash cream like a champ. But still can't believe you were a Dad for 17 months before earning the official badge of Fatherhood: getting peed on (and yes, of course, it would strike on a Sunday morning, during church). 
You lay down with tired babies and sing to them as they're falling asleep. When our one-year-old was in a routine of waking up crying at least once or twice in the night, you would pick him up, snuggle with him until he went back to sleep, then lay him gently back in his bed. When he finally started sleeping through the night at 16 months, I think it was one of those bittersweet moments... because a solid night's sleep is amazing, but as your baby outgrows each phase it makes you realize just how quickly they're growing up. 
You've dealt with ear infections, illnesses, and trips to the doc. You've set multiple alarms on your phone in order to get up in the night and check on a sick baby, and you've dosed out meds when needed.
You've gone on a million bottle and pacifier hunts, searching under literally every piece of furniture until the missing treasure was found. "Babe, you'll never guess. It was in the washing machine!" Your slippers have gone missing and have eventually been found in the laundry hamper-- along with a pile of books and toys. And speaking of laundry, you know you're a mature father when you discover late at night that a kid just peed or spit up on your side of the bed, and changing the sheets doesn't even cross your mind. I'll just throw a bath towel on it for tonight and call it good. (P.S. Wouldn't you agree that our washable mattress cover is on our list of Most Valuable Investments? The mattress has been spared 1000x.)
You've run to the store for diapers more than I have, and you know by heart that Spurgeon wears size 5 Huggies Little Movers and Henry wears size 3 Pampers Baby Dry. And even when forget to bring a grocery bag, you can pile those 4oz 78¢ Aldi's organic fruit and veggie purée food pouches a foot high, because you know they're nearly twice the price anywhere else. After Spurgeon found that he could turn upside down and shake water out of his sippy cup, you saved our hardwood floors by  shopping around for a quality spill-proof replacement. With the busyness of life with littles, we don't always make it to the gym. But on days when we miss out, you'll often turn the living room floor into our workout pad, and Spurgeon loves it 'cause you let him be involved! He thinks it's great to climb on your chest and ride along when you're trying to do sit-ups, and he gets down on the ground beside you and wants to mimic when you're doing push-ups. Of course his favorite is when you put him up on your shoulders and just give him a ride around the house! He feels like he's on top of the world.In our cozy little house, you don't have an office or a study, but you've learned to work efficiently, even in the midst of a noisy environment. You grab a glass of cold brew and your stack of theology books and take over the glider rocker in the baby's room, using the ottoman as your desk. You've had to fidget with prying those almost-adult-proof baby-proof outlet covers out when all you want to do is charge your laptop! But even in the midst of college studies, you welcome interactions with the kiddos-- to ooh and ahh over Spurgeon's Crayola artwork or to talk to babbling baby Henry. I'm grateful that my sons have you as to look up to a role model and a hero. You'd be the first to say that you're not perfect. Often as we lay in bed at night, you'll take my hand in yours and pray for our sons. You pray that God will give us wisdom to be good parents, to be patient and loving. But most of all, you plead with the Lord that He would do a work in Spurgeon and Henry's hearts-- that we might faithfully teach them the gospel, and that they would come to know Jesus Christ from a young age. You're such a tender-hearted daddy, and I feel so blessed to have you as my husband and the father of our children. Words cannot even begin to express the appreciation we have for you. We love you so much.
Happy Father's Day! 
-Jes (for the boys)
 

This is the most developmentally appropriate thing about kids I've ever seen the Duggars say or write. Michelle has never seemed to know her kids this well or be interested in doing things with them. Rock on (even if it's just this one thing), Jessa and Ben.

[OyToTheVey]

I am trained for homeschooling a child(master's in special and general education). But I would never in a million years keep a child home. I'm a strong believer in picking out a proper school and socializing children from a young age. We don't live in an individual society. We have to know how to deal with social situations. Even the simple act of staying quiet when someone else is talking is very important in a school setting. Putting a child into public school isn't throwing them to the wolves. It's giving a child the ability to work out their own problems with peers, teachers and different aspects of life. Plus with today's multicultural life they get to navigate the classroom with peers that they otherwise wouldn't even meet. 

PS: My best friends kid is 5 and in public school and he reads advanced too. But he has problems with social issues so he needs the classroom setting to prosper in life.

[Georgiana]

3 minutes ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

I never wanted to homeschool my now-grown children. They attended public and some Catholic schools.

However, I had decided that If I ever saw that they were being bullied beyond say 2-3 weeks and the school would/could not fix it, I would homeschool until a better situation could be found. This never happened. Well, actually yes in just preschool it did happen and I pulled my sweet child out completely. The teacher was an idiot. She basically said she could not control the kids. I personally could have, so I was done. 

And there are people on the other side of the coin too.  My friend always wanted to homeschool her kids and did thru preschool.  However, one kid had speech issues and needed to be mainstreamed.  She wasn't progressing properly at home.  

Kindergarten wasn't EASY for her (she had a much steeper learning curve compared to the rest of the kids), but she just finished.  She is doing much better, is nearly caught up, and is much happier and more social than before.  

Good parents do right by their kids, even when the parent might wish things could be done differently.  But that will mean different things for every kid.  

[VelociRapture]

@FlamingFundieThank you for your response and for looking through your comment again.

I'm glad homeschooling appears to be working well for your family. It can be an excellent choice for some families. And yes, there are things about public school that aren't ideal or could absolutely use improvement - with Trump and DeVos in charge I don't believe anything is going to get better anytime soon, unfortunately.

Personally, we plan to enroll our daughter in public schools. Husband and I both did well in public school and I come from a very long line of public educators. That said, if Velocibaby needs to be placed in a different learning environment for any reason then we absolutely would do that. As @Georgianajust said, parents need to do what's best for their kid regardless of their personal hopes or wishes - we fully intend of making sure that's the case for our child when she's old enough.

[TuringMachine]

My cousin went to an independent study high school. She also studied / practiced ballet for most of the week. It seemed to work out well for her.

[FlamingFundie]

11 minutes ago, OyToTheVey said:

I am trained for homeschooling a child(master's in special and general education). But I would never in a million years keep a child home. I'm a strong believer in picking out a proper school and socializing children from a young age. We don't live in an individual society. We have to know how to deal with social situations. Even the simple act of staying quiet when someone else is talking is very important in a school setting. Putting a child into public school isn't throwing them to the wolves. It's giving a child the ability to work out their own problems with peers, teachers and different aspects of life. Plus with today's multicultural life they get to navigate the classroom with peers that they otherwise wouldn't even meet. 

PS: My best friends kid is 5 and in public school and he reads advanced too. But he has problems with social issues so he needs the classroom setting to prosper in life.

But that's just it: many homeschoolers don't keep their child locked away at home. "Homeschool" is such a tragic word as many of the HSers in my groups spend more time out doing things with their children or shuttling them to various sports or activities. Very few I know of (and I certainly don't know all, obviously) do "school at home." Learning happens everywhere! Playgroups, co-ops (some meet weekly, some meet three times a week), social events (yes, homeschoolers have prom too!), sports/activities. Any group setting will help teach skills such as being quiet while another is speaking. So many opportunities for regular "socialization" and the chance to make real, regular friends. And what I love most about those opportunities is that many of them involved mixed ages which is right up my daughter's alley as she tends to gravitate towards much older kids or babies, lol. We have met so many great kids and their parents from various backgrounds. I honestly don't know how parents did it before social media, but I am glad they did and paved the way for the rest of us.

We are very lucky to live in a rural area that has many state parks with great homeschool programs that meet regularly. Sadly, we missed the butterfly tagging event last year at our state park but I am keeping my eyes peeled for it this year as my daughter loves butterflies.  People like the Duggars give the rest of us homeschoolers such a bad name.

Perhaps one of the few pitfalls for our family personally in regards to homeschooling is the cost, believe it or not. I am not saying I would like to see some sort of financial incentive for homeschoolers because with that comes govt oversight, and HSing CAN be done cheaply if absolutely necessary by getting creative with materials and library use, but I will admit that our financial standing is a big factor for the ease with which we are able to homeschool. For many families, they just can't do it financially because of both parents working, cost of materials, etc. Sadly, for many children, public school might even be their only meal.

(OK, I read this one several times and I think it's a much better tone, haha! But please let me know if I messed up again!  )