Family Living on Purpose (FLOP) : Erika Shupe Pt 11

[mango_fandango]

She described the youngest four, who were all born within 22 months of each other, as being like quadruplets. Just in case you forgot, there is ten and a half months between Tyler and Spencer and then eleven months between Spencer and the twins.

As I've said before, Erika really wrestled with the idea of giving family planning over to God. Think about it- Erika waned control over every aspect of her life, which in fundie life you can achieve in many ways, but you cannot control when you fall pregnant. There are some very close gaps between her kids so she is clearly very fertile. She probably knew this and wanted to be on the pill so that she could have some control over when she conceived. But in fundieism you are supposed to let God take control. If you read the two "Our Story" posts she went on and off the pill. She also mentions that when she came off it she conceived pretty quickly. 

I think she did want a number of kids. She had Melanie very quickly after having Karen (gap of 13 months) which probably terrified her (especially since she said Karen's birth was difficult and gave her nightmares for a whole year), hence the pill. 

Hmmm... reading that has made me think. She claims she had nightmares for a whole year after having Karen. I get that births can be complex, but for a whole year? Especially when for most of that year she had a tiny baby and was pregnant? Maybe she has unresolved issues from that in some way.

[Toomuchtimeonmyhands]

On 6/18/2017 at 0:53 AM, elliha said:

Of course they exist, it is just that in my country conservatives aren't really that much more religious than the average person and the link is much much weaker. Most people politically conservative are not religious or very mildly religious. We do have people who are conservative both politically and religiously but they are a minor group really. There are plenty of atheist conservatives.

I'm not sure what country you are in, but I am on the Westcoast of Canada and have family all across Canada and have 1 friend, 1 colleague and no relatives that regularly go to church.  I do have only about 6 out of the last 50 families I have taught (I teach grade 1) that go to church and our school is in a politically conservative area.  Some families will go when the children are young, but then tend to stop as the children grow older.  Almost no one talks about going to church ever.  I do have Muslim and Jewish families, and they don't really practice either.  I know Canada is becoming more and more secular.

[elliha]

1 hour ago, Toomuchtimeonmyhands said:

I'm not sure what country you are in, but I am on the Westcoast of Canada and have family all across Canada and have 1 friend, 1 colleague and no relatives that regularly go to church.  I do have only about 6 out of the last 50 families I have taught (I teach grade 1) that go to church and our school is in a politically conservative area.  Some families will go when the children are young, but then tend to stop as the children grow older.  Almost no one talks about going to church ever.  I do have Muslim and Jewish families, and they don't really practice either.  I know Canada is becoming more and more secular.

Sweden. People in general are not religious.

[mango_fandango]

Karen's posted one of those "lists" statuses on FB, like places you've visited/TV shows you like etc. She's indicated that she likes Sherlock and Friends. From someone who was raised in a household where she was only allowed to watch selected educational documentaries this is a big step. 

Go Karen go!

 

[Coy Koi]

Friends seems like an odd choice for someone Karen's age. The only people I've heard of caring about Friends going on Netflix are ones who were fans during its first run. And I did like it the first time around, but I couldn't get into it at all now, it seems dated and stale to me. Funny to think that I'm almost twice her age and yet it might seem fresh to her.

[Howl]

Is Erika still fertile or has God closed her womb?  If the former, do y'all think that Bob has laid down the law about no more kids?

28 minutes ago, Coy Koi said:

Friends seems like an odd choice for someone Karen's age.

Reruns are on everyday in late afternoon -- say 4-5pm.  I can see how she might like it.  

[closetcagebaby]

59 minutes ago, Coy Koi said:

Friends seems like an odd choice for someone Karen's age. The only people I've heard of caring about Friends going on Netflix are ones who were fans during its first run. And I did like it the first time around, but I couldn't get into it at all now, it seems dated and stale to me. Funny to think that I'm almost twice her age and yet it might seem fresh to her.

Eh I'm not sure about that. It's pretty popular with people my age and I'm only a little older than Karen I think - 22. I was a mega fan and got the box set for Christmas...which I passed down to my younger stepbrother who is 17! 

[mango_fandango]

Yep I'm the same age as @closetcagebaby (well, nearly) and I like Friends. My mum liked it and I started watching it with her. A lot of other people my age like it too. It's not unfeasable that someone of Karen's age would've introduced it to her. And we have to remember Karen's upbringing - something like Friends would be a revelation to her. Pre-marital sex, alcohol/getting drunk, multiple partners, babies out of wedlock, divorce... the list goes on. 

[Coy Koi]

Well, I guess I'm wrong about Friends. I assumed it wasn't still in syndication after all these years, but my only TV service is streaming. And I think my 17-year-old and her friends would think I was nuts if I tried to get them into it. The only shows I've ever successfully gotten her into are Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt and The Good Place, and I suppose both of those might still be a little much for Karen.

[meee]

8 hours ago, Howl said:

Is Erika still fertile or has God closed her womb?  If the former, do y'all think that Bob has laid down the law about no more kids?

Reruns are on everyday in late afternoon -- say 4-5pm.  I can see how she might like it.  

I think she's over 40, and she had a couple of miscarriages a few years back.  I would not expect that she will have any more successful pregnancies.

[Howl]

I was (and still am) shocked at the number of children (4) she had in a remarkably short period of time.  This is what happens when you let God to parcel out the blessings allow your husband's sexual demands determine family size and spacing instead of looking at your precious wife's needs to recover from pregnancy and childbirth while looking after the blessings you already have, by, you know, practicing self control and putting your wife's needs before your own.  Or even using natural family planning for awhile. 

But of course, with this lot, it's imperative that a husband's sexual access take precedence over everything else.  I can also imagine in these marriages that a woman is often forced into sex before her body has really recovered from childbirth, because sex on demand.  I am so glad that Karen and Melanie will leave all this in the rear-view mirror. 

Michelle and the Boob abstained from the horizontal boogie for a certain number of days after each baby was born - the time differed depending on gender, because Gothard! and Leviticus 12 and Leviticus 15.   Lots of OCD washing and rinsing of impurities from emissions in Leviticus.  Lots.  A bunch.  Clothes! Bodies! Hands! I cannot even imagine how much time these people spent washing clothes and taking baths. 

 

 

[Eternalbluepearl]

7 minutes ago, Howl said:

I was (and still am) shocked at the number of children (4) she had in a remarkably short period of time.  This is what happens when you let God to parcel out the blessings allow your husband's sexual demands determine family size and spacing instead of looking at your precious wife's needs to recover from pregnancy and childbirth while looking after the blessings you already have, by, you know, practicing self control and putting your wife's needs before your own. 

I agree with you, but with the Shupes' I always got the sense that it was Erika who was driving the let-God-control-our-number-of-blessings-bus more than it was Bob. I can't be sure though what their marriage is really like. 

[mango_fandango]

Even Michelle didn't have kids that close together - although it may be due to that arbitrary "wait forty days after a boy or eighty days after a girl" thing that Gothard espoused (it might be the other way round but still). Erika may have found out that you are most fertile after birth. But seriously she was pregnant again six weeks after birth. That had to have been incredibly hard on her body. Sex after that time I can imagine... although I'd guess that a lot of mothers would be too exhausted to even have sex!! (Of course though this is fundieism and you have to submit and give yourself to your husband without question).

[Lurky]

3 minutes ago, mango_fandango said:

Even Michelle didn't have kids that close together - although it may be due to that arbitrary "wait forty days after a boy or eighty days after a girl" thing that Gothard espoused (it might be the other way round but still).

Innit more days to wait after a girl baby, because women are inherently unclean?  Is there even an explanation for why there's such a difference?

[Anonymousguest]

Erika did not breastfeed at all, which is one possible reason they are so close. Michelle did nurse for a few months. But yes, it's 80 days for a girl. These are based on rules from Leviticus. 

[lauraloralara]

On the subject of Friends: I teach high school, and many of my 9th and 10th graders (14, 15, 16 year olds for non-US people) are obsessed with it. I think they watch it on Netflix. The funny part is that a lot of them are watching it for the first time, so many of the jokes and plot lines that are old hat to many of us (and I'm only in the 20s) - like "we were on a break!", banana hammock, surprises of the last season, Emily/Rachel vow mixup, etc. - are all surprises to them. They don't know how the show ends and who ends up with whom, and it's very funny to see them ask each other "have you gotten to the part where...?"

[divadivine]

I wouldn't be surprised if Karen gets into Gilmore Girls, too. That's another older show the late teens- younger adults have gotten into because of the Reboot. I had several college students who were binge watching the original episodes before the Reboot came out. 

[church_of_dog]

2 hours ago, lauraloralara said:

On the subject of Friends: I teach high school, and many of my 9th and 10th graders (14, 15, 16 year olds for non-US people) are obsessed with it. I think they watch it on Netflix. The funny part is that a lot of them are watching it for the first time, so many of the jokes and plot lines that are old hat to many of us (and I'm only in the 20s) - like "we were on a break!", banana hammock, surprises of the last season, Emily/Rachel vow mixup, etc. - are all surprises to them. They don't know how the show ends and who ends up with whom, and it's very funny to see them ask each other "have you gotten to the part where...?"

In advance of watching the new version, I'm currently rewatching the original Twin Peaks episodes (which I saw some of, but not all, when they first aired in 1990 and 1991).  It's fun to see not only the clothing styles and vehicles of the time, but all the "accessories" of life at that time -- pre-internet, pre-cell phone, etc.  Today I caught a glimpse of one of the FBI agents taking notes on this:

[nausicaa]

10 hours ago, Lurky said:

Innit more days to wait after a girl baby, because women are inherently unclean?  Is there even an explanation for why there's such a difference?

I've heard an interpretation that it was a way to protect the wife, since the husband would be likely to want to try again for a son right away. And yeah, it's 80 days for a girl, and 40 for a boy.

[Pammy]

17 hours ago, Lurky said:

Innit more days to wait after a girl baby, because women are inherently unclean?  Is there even an explanation for why there's such a difference?

Yes, it's because women are inherently "more unclean" than men, but not in the way you might be thinking.

In the Old Testament "clean" and "unclean" cover a lot of territory... and a lot of it focuses on simple health and hygiene, with a veneer of religious language. Many of them are common taboos of the ancient world. There was an "unclean" view of menstruation in the Old Testament, which was both a problem (misogyny and isolation) and a solution (blood-borne illness prevention, appropriate waste disposal).

In the birth of a girl, the "unclean" birth process happened in either case, but in the case of a girl baby, her future as another female in the "unclean" cycle of life was seen as a foundational to her personhood. Therefore the birth of a girl was seen as "twice as unclean" as the birth of a boy. A boy is not expected to have a future that involves menstruating or giving birth.

[Howl]

Leviticus 15 has many, many requirements for men and their discharges and emissions that require washing, washing clothes,  and abstaining.  This is NOT the KJB; it's the New International Version.  

Discharges Causing Uncleanness

15 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When any man has an unusual bodily discharge, such a discharge is unclean. 3 Whether it continues flowing from his body or is blocked, it will make him unclean. This is how his discharge will bring about uncleanness:

4 “‘Any bed the man with a discharge lies on will be unclean, and anything he sits on will be unclean. 5 Anyone who touches his bed must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening. 6 Whoever sits on anything that the man with a discharge sat on must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

7 “‘Whoever touches the man who has a discharge must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

8 “‘If the man with the discharge spits on anyone who is clean, they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

9 “‘Everything the man sits on when riding will be unclean, 10 and whoever touches any of the things that were under him will be unclean till evening; whoever picks up those things must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

11 “‘Anyone the man with a discharge touches without rinsing his hands with water must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

12 “‘A clay pot that the man touches must be broken, and any wooden article is to be rinsed with water.

13 “‘When a man is cleansed from his discharge, he is to count off seven days for his ceremonial cleansing; he must wash his clothes and bathe himself with fresh water, and he will be clean. 14 On the eighth day he must take two doves or two young pigeons and come before the Lord to the entrance to the tent of meeting and give them to the priest. 15 The priest is to sacrifice them, the one for a sin offering[a] and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement before the Lord for the man because of his discharge.

16 “‘When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 17 Any clothing or leather that has semen on it must be washed with water, and it will be unclean till evening. 18 When a man has sexual relations with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both of them must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

I'm having this vision of hordes of people constantly washing clothes and taking baths.  But as @Pammy pointed out, there is an important hygienic aspect to these practices. 

The next admonitions in Leviticus 15 have to do with menstrual discharges.  

 

[SoybeanQueen]

On 6/22/2017 at 9:10 PM, Coy Koi said:

Friends seems like an odd choice for someone Karen's age. The only people I've heard of caring about Friends going on Netflix are ones who were fans during its first run. And I did like it the first time around, but I couldn't get into it at all now, it seems dated and stale to me. Funny to think that I'm almost twice her age and yet it might seem fresh to her.

This doesn't seem odd to me, actually. I have a teenage daughter who loves Friends. She also loves everything trendy in 2017. My older kids will all watch it and laugh because it's still new to them.

Unbreakable Kimmy Schmit might seem a little too close to home for someone like Karen, for sure.

RE: older shows and clothes - the other day when my daughters were watching Friends I was pointing out some of the 90s fashions that have now returned to stylish. Hoping my girls won't ask for Rachel haircuts.

Stranger Things is awesome to watch if you want some retro fashion exposure, too!

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

Think of how exotic and unusual "Friends" is for Karen.

The concept of  group of young adults. living on their own, with careers, friendships, romances, etc.  And No parents to tell them what to do!  This is brand new for her.  

The characters have autonomy!!  -- something that Karen has never had.  While Friends might not be a manual for her, it is showing Karen a Hollywood version of what life on your own is like. 

Certainly Erica and hubby have not prepared her to be independent, so she has to look elsewhere.  Hopefully the more normal extended family members are helping her navigate this new world.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Now with Netflix/Hulu/Amazon Prime you can binge watch old shows when ever you want. Even if they are 20 or 30 years old. I like that I can have something in common with teens when I'm feeling rather old remembering that I was 13 and waiting anxiously for Friends to start on Thursday nights.

when I was a teen, I had a habit of watching tv while on the phone with my BFFs. So we would watch and talk on the phone about it since it was airing at the exact same time while we were watching at our own houses.

[smittykins]

Jeff Foxworthy:  "Nowadays, if kids don't like what's on TV, they have 40, 50 channels to choose from.  You know how many channels we had when we were kids? THREE!  And if the President was on, your night was SHOT!"