Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon

[NakedKnees]

I'm really unhappy right now. This is going to be longer than I expected, but f*ck it. Also: lots of questionable grammar and cursing ahead.

On Arya, Sandor, and the Mountain:

Spoiler

 

-Arya and the Hound. Very okay with the end of their relationship/arc.

-I don't mind Arya surviving. Her spending the sacking of King's Landing trying to protect herself and others makes sense in her arc (and, lord, how we desperately need sensible character arcs). She's going from a magic preteen assassin to someone who couldn't deny her identity as "Arya Stark," to someone who can love sexually, to someone who cares more about protecting innocents than ticking a name off of her list. She's changed over the course of the show and it's actually been consistent, including in tonight's episode. Not to mention: the makeup and acting was fantastic.

-I'm cool with Cleganebowl although its existence was fan-service-ish to the point of breaking the fourth wall for me. It was well done, Qyburn's death was perfect, and I'm happy and sad for Sandor at the same time. Cool. 

 

On Dany's teammates:

Spoiler

 

-I get Dany snapping although I wish she hadn't. It's consistent, but sad, and I am curious to see how it ends.

-I feel for Varys. What a canary in a coal mine this episode. 

-Grey Worm, Davos, and Jon. Who would've thought they'd be an interesting and ALIVE trio going into the final episode!

-I love Grey Worm so much it hurts. He's pretty much the only person behaving loyally, intelligently, AND ethically on Dany's side now.

-WHY COULDN'T YOU JUST FUCK YOUR AUNT, JON, YOU DUMB SHIT. How much destruction could a nice night have prevented??? I would never want someone to have sex that they don't want to have IRL, but this is so deeply fictional, I'll just let myself feel this way tongue-in-cheek

 

On the f***ing Lannisters:

Spoiler

 

-Tyrion's old cunning finally showed a little bit this episode. He knows King's Landing and the Blackwater ridiculously well. I was honestly never obsessed with the Battle of the Blackwater, so I am satisfied in how Tyrion's role in that has now played a pivotal role in the big picture.

-Tyrion's plan for Jamie and Cersei wasn't horrible and it provided some good suspense. He and Jamie's moment was sweet, I guess. It's hard to appreciate any of that when...

-I'M SO PISSED ABOUT JAMIE'S CHARACTER RESOLUTION I CAN'T THINK STRAIGHT. Others above have already said it better than me, so I won't go into depth, but I'm really not okay with him dying with Cersei like that. What a shitty, abusive move for both of them. How shitty for Brienne. Not tragic. Not dramatic. Just shitty.

-I'm okay with Cersei's end. Her confidence evolving into tears. Qyburn and the Mountain disappearing from her side. Ending up alone and scared in that one courtyard with the map where she had so many important power moves the first season. Cowering, not wanting to die while trapped. It was fitting and well acted. But...

-Jamie should have killed her. Or even died leaving her alone in her final moments. Or basically anything besides what happened.

 

Thoughts for next week and miscellaneous: 

Spoiler

-As much as I hate Euron and am glad he's finally gone, he and Jamie's fight scene was pretty cool. 

-I think there are about 6 named characters left in Kings landing, 6 or so in Winterfell, plus... Tormund? The Reeds? Whoever we still care about in Essos? They actually really parsed down the players a whole lot. ETA: Yara, of course!

-Dany's House of the Undying vision is majorly coming true.

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by NakedKnees
Yara

[VelociRapture]

5 hours ago, NakedKnees said:

I'm really unhappy right now. This is going to be longer than I expected, but f*ck it. Also: lots of questionable grammar and cursing ahead.

On Arya, Sandor, and the Mountain:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

-Arya and the Hound. Very okay with the end of their relationship/arc.

-I don't mind Arya surviving. Her spending the sacking of King's Landing trying to protect herself and others makes sense in her arc (and, lord, how we desperately need sensible character arcs). She's going from a magic preteen assassin to someone who couldn't deny her identity as "Arya Stark," to someone who can love sexually, to someone who cares more about protecting innocents than ticking a name off of her list. She's changed over the course of the show and it's actually been consistent, including in tonight's episode. Not to mention: the makeup and acting was fantastic.

-I'm cool with Cleganebowl although its existence was fan-service-ish to the point of breaking the fourth wall for me. It was well done, Qyburn's death was perfect, and I'm happy and sad for Sandor at the same time. Cool. 

 

On Dany's teammates:

  Hide contents

 

-I get Dany snapping although I wish she hadn't. It's consistent, but sad, and I am curious to see how it ends.

-I feel for Varys. What a canary in a coal mine this episode. 

-Grey Worm, Davos, and Jon. Who would've thought they'd be an interesting and ALIVE trio going into the final episode!

-I love Grey Worm so much it hurts. He's pretty much the only person behaving loyally, intelligently, AND ethically on Dany's side now.

-WHY COULDN'T YOU JUST FUCK YOUR AUNT, JON, YOU DUMB SHIT. How much destruction could a nice night have prevented??? I would never want someone to have sex that they don't want to have IRL, but this is so deeply fictional, I'll just let myself feel this way tongue-in-cheek

 

On the f***ing Lannisters:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

-Tyrion's old cunning finally showed a little bit this episode. He knows King's Landing and the Blackwater ridiculously well. I was honestly never obsessed with the Battle of the Blackwater, so I am satisfied in how Tyrion's role in that has now played a pivotal role in the big picture.

-Tyrion's plan for Jamie and Cersei wasn't horrible and it provided some good suspense. He and Jamie's moment was sweet, I guess. It's hard to appreciate any of that when...

-I'M SO PISSED ABOUT JAMIE'S CHARACTER RESOLUTION I CAN'T THINK STRAIGHT. Others above have already said it better than me, so I won't go into depth, but I'm really not okay with him dying with Cersei like that. What a shitty, abusive move for both of them. How shitty for Brienne. Not tragic. Not dramatic. Just shitty.

-I'm okay with Cersei's end. Her confidence evolving into tears. Qyburn and the Mountain disappearing from her side. Ending up alone and scared in that one courtyard with the map where she had so many important power moves the first season. Cowering, not wanting to die while trapped. It was fitting and well acted. But...

-Jamie should have killed her. Or even died leaving her alone in her final moments. Or basically anything besides what happened.

 

Thoughts for next week and miscellaneous: 

  Hide contents

-As much as I hate Euron and am glad he's finally gone, he and Jamie's fight scene was pretty cool. 

-I think there are about 6 named characters left in Kings landing, 6 or so in Winterfell, plus... Tormund? The Reeds? Whoever we still care about in Essos? They actually really parsed down the players a whole lot. ETA: Yara, of course!

-Dany's House of the Undying vision is majorly coming true.

 

I don’t know how ethically or intelligently Greyworm is acting though. He knew the bells ringing were the signal that the city had surrendered. He stopped fighting when he heard them and allowed the Lannister soldiers to surrender. But the second Dany chose to continue attacking the city he picked up a spear and impaled a soldier. He willingly chose to slaughter soldiers and innocent civilians who had surrendered, all of them people who had no say in Missandei’s death. That’s not ethical in any sense of the word. It’s not intelligent either since more of their soldiers died than necessary by continuing the fight and they might very well need those soldiers if the rest of the country doesn’t accept Dany as Queen or if they have to fight Jon and the North after what they witnessed at King’s Landing.

As for Jon and Dany, it’s as consistent with his character for him not to be able to have a relationship with her as it is for hers to be fine with it. I know it’s fictional, but I just can’t bring myself to blame Jon for not being able to be with her to avoid war. We could as easily argue that Dany shouldn’t have put him in a position where he had to make a choice between warfare and incest - had she accepted that he really doesn’t want the throne and proven that she was a worthy leader maybe Varys wouldn’t have switched his allegiance and other characters wouldn’t be muttering around her.

Like others, I don’t think Dany is insane. She’s acting out of a desire for revenge and anger, but she’s still sane. That, in my opinion, is much scarier than Dany being insane because it means she knows exactly what she’s doing and she doesn’t care about who gets hurt. I don’t know if she even has morals or ethics left at this point. When you purposely choose to continue killing people who have surrendered, a vast number of them unarmed civilians who don’t have a bone in this fight other than not wanting to die, can you really claim to have any morals left? 

I think it’s an interesting turn for the show. It’s consistent with Martin’s theme of power corrupting and with the hints planted about Dany all along. And with his insistence that the dragons are forces of pure destruction, not good. What in their world can offer more power than a fully grown dragon? I don’t think it’s a mistake that it’s Dany who becomes corrupted at this point, not when she has ambition for ruling and what amounts to a flying WMD. But the show absolutely went about it so poorly that it feels rushed and disjointed and unrealistic. Given more time they could have really expanded on those hints and explored Dany’s spiral more fully, as well as developed a more realistic romance between Dany and Jon, but they were so focused on finishing now that this is the result we get. 

I’m starting to think they purposely sacrificed Jamie’s redemption arc for that brief show of humanity we got out of Cersei. Who else would she have turned to with that reaction in a moment like that? No one. It wouldn’t have felt genuine and at the very least those last scenes between Jamie and Cersei did feel genuine and true to their characters. Jamie fought so hard to escape that toxic relationship and it’s upsetting he ultimately gave in to it at the end, but it’s somewhat consistent with who he is. He’s always struggled to do the right thing and he’s always struggled to be a better man and at the very end all he could do was what he knew best - return to Cersei and comfort her in those last moments they had together. 

I did like Arya’s last moments with The Hound though and how his last lesson for her was not to become obsessed with revenge because it only leads to one thing. That last moment where she uses his real name was beautiful - you can see just how much they care about one another and how sad she is to lose her another father figure. It reminded me of when Syrio sacrificed himself to protect her during Season One. 

So I'm feeling disappointed overall. They could have handled Dany’s arc with so much more care than they have and really developed it into something special. Instead they’re just going for cheap storytelling because they backed themselves into a corner by only have eight seasons total. I am glad that two major characters actually died this week, but I think more of them should have considering the absolute chaos that was King’s landing being attacked by a fully grown Dragon. I just find it kind of unbelievable that Arya in particular would survive when she was right in the heart of the attack, just like I find it unrealistic that Jon survived Viserion when he was breathing ice fire onto the half-wall thing Jon was hiding behind during the Battle of Winterfell or how it’s unrealistic to show Tyrion getting hit on the head by the mast last episode only to have nothing come of it because he survives too. 

I am curious how they intend to end it all. I think it’s clear that Dany isn’t going to survive at this point and Jon will likely be the one to kill her. I’m more curious about the other characters though and what kind of further destruction Dany will cause before she dies. Will she manage to kill Sansa for snitching to Tyrion? If she dies then she’s lost the North and the Starks completely - there’d be no avoiding war at that point, especially if their family in the Vale (Sweet Robin) and the Riverlands (is Edmure Tully even alive?) join with them. Will she kill Tyrion for telling Varys and for setting Jamie free? Will Davos die because he speaks out against her publicly due to what he saw? Will Greyworm die because of her poor choices like all the other brown people on the show have recently? Will Drogon die for remaining loyal to his Mother or will Jon be able to control him because he has Targaryen blood? What will happen to Brienne and Podrick? Will they remain loyal to the Starks or switch to Dany if they need to? How about Yara and the Reeds? Do they even matter now? I feel like they don’t because they would have played a role at this point if they did. Are there even any other characters left that I’m forgetting at this point?

ETA: Just got through this article and it’s dead on with the three different assessments in my opinion. The problem isn’t the direction the show has taken, it’s with how they went about doing it:

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2019/05/game-thrones-season-8-episode-5-review/589297/

Edited May 13, 2019 by VelociRapture

[Jinder Roles]

Ok I have new thoughts. 

They fucked up Dany’s character arc way more than Jaime’s. Not to say she could never go “mad”, but the way it happened was way too rushed and inconsistent. In the past, she has only ever used excessive  violence against people that were against her and had a heart for the innocent. Just this season she fought for the living and showed Tyrion mercy numerous times.  

It doesn’t make sense. It was unnecessary. She could have easily just burned Cersei in the Red Keep and been done. 

In a similar manner, Jaime’s character is all about balancing his destructive nature with the noble person he has the potential to be. I think he’s worse at this than Danaerys (much less consistent) and Cersei being in danger has always been his weakness. He loves her. Ans when she’s truly in danger or needs him, he goes back to her. 

One thing I did like is that this episode showed the true gravity of war. This is how the Targaryens conquered Westeros - fire and blood. 

The dragons, power, political game etc. seem less glamourous when we truly see the effects. 

Also, Clegane Bowl was visually stunning but fan shenanigans and unnecessary. Stop wasting precious HBO money D&D!!

This ending will be dumb. I bet Arya will kill Dany and Jon will be king and hate his job. 

Only the memes and edits on Black Twitter will give me solace. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Jinder Roles

[TuringMachine]

16 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

This ending will be dumb. I bet Arya will kill Dany and Jon will be king and hate his job. 

If Arya kills Dany I'll be so mad. There's been too much Arya this season and not enough Jon.

[clueliss]

I'm okay with the amount of Arya - I'm not okay with the sudden/rushed shoving Arya into a role that makes her look like Azor Ahai (the show version because it's clear that D&D are picking and choosing what to follow with any of the prophecies)

I'm seriously annoyed (leftover from last week) at the Brienne/Jamie stuff because it feels like Brienne (a character I love) received a pity f*ck simply because D&D did what fans want.

I found how things ended for Jamie & Cersei to be unsatisfying (see my comment about D&D and prophecies)

I've mentally moved a lot of S6 and all of S7 and likely all of S8 to a category I've labeled as 'fan fiction' because that's what it feels like without the based story from Martin to solidify what we've received.  

And I've been meh on Jon (and Dany) for some time now.  

 

[BernRul]

I actually don't think Dany will go "mad". People have been saying mad Queen forever, but the foreshadowing and themes don't add up to that. They add up to someone willing to take a morally gray any means necessary approach-- and approach I call morally gray because many people justify that in real life (like how many people justify Hiroshima). 

ADWD signified that Dany is willing to embrace being a conquerer. She will absolutely double down on conquering, but always with well intentions. Like, "the sack of x city might result in some casualties, but it's the only way I can defeat the enemy. So I'll sacrifice dozens to save thousands. "

Dany, to me, embodies our own vengeance mentality. She is a victim who stands up for victims--woth harsh justice. A lot of people cheer that on, but it is morally questionable. 

I can see Dany burning KL. But not this way.

She could, in her quest to pursue the ruler (probably fAegon, maybe Cersei) ignore the people in her way. Than Cersei, true to her for shadowing, sets off the wildfire. Dany will cause the destruction through her own character flaws, becoming the "mad Queen" in the eyes of her people. 

Or she could sack the city with the intent of only targeting those who "deserve it" and in her ruthless pursuit realize that her armies/dragons are mostly harming Innocents. 

Both cases Dany burns the city and kills civilians. In both it is her long established character flaws that cause it. There's no intentional murder, because it's more tragic, and fiting with the novels anti war themes, to have someone think they are saving the people when really they do the opposite. That even "good" characters can do evil things. That maybe there is no such thing as a benevolent conquerer.

I see book Dany being a tragic anti-hero/anti-villian, the way most of Martin's characters end up being. 

What I don't see is Dany snapping and going no shades of grey evil. What message is that? Your father was evil and so are you-- so don't bother trying to be better.

It's mad worse by the fact they every other morally gray character, like Tyrion Jon and Arya now have halos. They aren't shown to be morally gray like their book charscters--theyre white as the fresh fallen snow.

This could've been the most thought provoking character on TV. Instead, we got every other character written as a saint and her going off the deep end in one and a half episodes.  

 

@VelociRapture we can agree to disagree, but I don't think any of the characters, especially the Stark girls, have acted organically this season. The writing for their arc has been very show don't tell. They tell us Sansa is so smart and she learned from being raped (???) And abused, but we haven't been able to see it for ourselves. So to me, it feels like they hate Dany cuz the writers need a reason for her to snap, not because of any natural story or character progression on any one's part.

The battle tactics were stupid, yes, because the writers needed them to be. Dany conquered cities by being a tactical genius(despite other flaws), now she and Jon (who has also lost both his character and brain) both disregard their own battle skills. 

It's just been very shitty writing ever since they decided to send Jon and co north of the wall. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by BernRul

[VelociRapture]

2 hours ago, Jinder Roles said:

Ok I have new thoughts. 

They fucked up Dany’s character arc way more than Jaime’s. Not to say she could never go “mad”, but the way it happened was way too rushed and inconsistent. In the past, she has only ever used excessive  violence against people that were against her and had a heart for the innocent. Just this season she fought for the living and showed Tyrion mercy numerous times.  

It doesn’t make sense. It was unnecessary. She could have easily just burned Cersei in the Red Keep and been done. 

In a similar manner, Jaime’s character is all about balancing his destructive nature with the noble person he has the potential to be. I think he’s worse at this than Danaerys (much less consistent) and Cersei being in danger has always been his weakness. He loves her. Ans when she’s truly in danger or needs him, he goes back to her. 

One thing I did like is that this episode showed the true gravity of war. This is how the Targaryens conquered Westeros - fire and blood. 

The dragons, power, political game etc. seem less glamourous when we truly see the effects. 

Also, Clegane Bowl was visually stunning but fan shenanigans and unnecessary. Stop wasting precious HBO money D&D!!

This ending will be dumb. I bet Arya will kill Dany and Jon will be king and hate his job. 

Only the memes and edits on Black Twitter will give me solace. 

Yes!!!!! The entire problem with her arc is the pacing. The hints have always been there, but they should have started with the spiral two or three seasons ago to really make it believable! If they had cut most of or that entire Dorne clusterfuck out, for example, they’d have had more time to devote to developing other more important storylines instead. I’m still pretty convinced the entire Dorne plot was only included so they could kill Myrcella, which could have been done easily any other number of ways and still would have been devastating to Cersei.  

It’s sloppy writing and story planning. That’s the entire problem they’ve had since running out of source material to work with. Visually the episodes have been stunning and if you’re watching without reading the books it’s likely enjoyable enough, but that’s about the best that can be said about it all. They’ve messed up badly. 

But yes. I think this episode was extremely important in showing the actual cost of war on a grand and an intimate scale. You see the overall breathtaking destruction Drogon causes as he destroys the city and that’s important because it shows wide scale damage, but then you also get those heartbreaking up close moments as well - like when Arya is with the mom and daughter or you see Jon and Davos realizing their men are literally sacking and raping the city. It drives the carnage home on a more personal level that makes it difficult to really excuse away. You start to realize that the good guys, the ones you’ve been cheering for all this time, really aren’t all that great because none of them have really cared that much for the common person (the exception being Varys, who is dead, and Jon, who did actually die due to his decision to save the common folk from beyond the wall.) For me, that goes for the characters who don’t act badly in this episode too because it makes you think about what they’ve done in the past too. Even goody two shoes Jon - as @BernRulpointed out he had Ollie executed with the Night’s Watch men who murdered him despite the fact that Ollie had the most solid reason for doing so and was still, you know, a child. 

Maybe Davos doesn’t have much bad stuff in his past. He seems to have acted pretty morally all throughout the story from what I remember and he put himself at risk multiple times to save or advocate for others, notably Gendry and Princess Shireen. He might be the only main character in the city I can say that about though. 

I hope the finale is better than I’m expecting. 

@BernRul I’ll agree to disagree. That seems more than fair enough to me. ?

I do agree with a lot of what you’re saying on this thread. I don’t think Dany has gone mad either, but I don’t know if that really makes it better to be honest. If she’s sane then she’s willingly choosing to act this way and that’s a scary thought considering just how much damage she’s capable of inflicting on anyone who crosses her. It also means she’s capable of acting this way on purpose again as well, which doesn’t really bode well for the people of Westeros. 

This story arc had so much potential and it’s disappointing to see it handled so badly. Emilia Clarke is a wonderful actor and she played this spiral as beautifully as possible under the circumstances. Everyone they’ve cast has been fantastic actually, but the material has unfortunately just really suffered since around Season Five. They could have done it so much better if they devoted more time to really building the foundation of Dany’s downward spiral - like showing her really wrestling with her sanity or actions starting when she’s in Mereen or something. The hints they’ve planted all along just aren’t enough to explain it, though at least it didn’t feel like it literally came out of nowhere I guess. It just seems cheap and rushed at this point. I wish that Martin could have finished the books prior to the show starting because I feel like it’d be much more believable the way he’d end up writing it. 

[BernRul]

45 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

 

@BernRul I’ll agree to disagree. That seems more than fair enough to me. ?

I do agree with a lot of what you’re saying on this thread. I don’t think Dany has gone mad either, but I don’t know if that really makes it better to be honest. If she’s sane then she’s willingly choosing to act this way and that’s a scary thought considering just how much damage she’s capable of inflicting on anyone who crosses her. It also means she’s capable of acting this way on purpose again as well, which doesn’t really bode well for the people of Westeros. 

This story arc had so much potential and it’s disappointing to see it handled so badly. Emilia Clarke is a wonderful actor and she played this spiral as beautifully as possible under the circumstances. Everyone they’ve cast has been fantastic actually, but the material has unfortunately just really suffered since around Season Five. They could have done it so much better if they devoted more time to really building the foundation of Dany’s downward spiral - like showing her really wrestling with her sanity or actions starting when she’s in Mereen or something. The hints they’ve planted all along just aren’t enough to explain it, though at least it didn’t feel like it literally came out of nowhere I guess. It just seems cheap and rushed at this point. I wish that Martin could have finished the books prior to the show starting because I feel like it’d be much more believable the way he’d end up writing it. 

I also think the arc had potential. I don't think any of the protagonists--except for Brienne, she's a perfect angel who deserved better--are meant to come out looking good. They can all be decisive. But for some reason they decided to make most of them heroes (nevermind that Arya is a broken shell of a person in the books or that Tyrion wants to rape Cersei and actually did rape a prostitute) and Dany a hero until season 8, when suddenly everyone calls her a mad Targaryen monster until she suddenly snaps. 

It's like what happened when Tyrion killed Shae. In the books, it's a huge downward step for him. He literally kills his lover, a prostitute he was deluded into thinking loved him back, because she's in Tywin's bed. I love Tyrion, but he's always felt entitled to women's bodies and that's an example of it. It is, undoubtedly, an evil act, though a lot of readers can understand what led him to it/still like him anyway. In the show, Shae tries to stab him. There's no morallly gray area as far as Tyrion's concerned--that might actually make the audience have to think, and feel bad. So they take away the gray area, and reassure us that our loveable quipping rouge is still a good guy afterall.

But with Dany, they're going the opposite way. Instead of letting us see her potentially lose her cool this season, we get told by other characters (who as I said before, are acting suddenly very woke) that she's bad. Then when she does something bad, they frame it as unquestionably evil. They don't give us possible humanizing scenarios, like Rhaegal dying this episode during the seige or Dany losing instead of winning, or one that still leaves some debate, like Dany setting off Cersei's wildfire in her impatience and desire for revenge. Instead, she directly burns civilians for no reason. No nuance their either. We're spoonfed she's bad, no room for debate. She may have been a beloved character and hero for nearly a decade, but now we say she's evil so she is.

I also wish Martin told the story. From his nuanced writing. I think we'll get both a more complicated and satisfying story. Just like he did wiht Tyrion, Arya, and Jaime, though the show's butchered that too. 

[Maggie Mae]

I think that there are several things going on here.  First and foremost, I think that the show runners are anxious to move on. They are also anxious to give HBO a show with lots of "gotcha" moments and fundamentally misunderstand why the show they adapted from a fantasy novel was popular. I also think that 'running out of book material' is kind of bullshit. Because they could do 8 seasons with the material they have now. 

But back to the fundamental misunderstanding. They wanted to adapt A Game of Thrones, and the Red Wedding. They appear to not understand that the reason the Red Wedding was such a powerful moment was not because it was "unexpected" but because it was plausible. There were things that happened that lead to that moment. I think that they also got stuck trying to keep actors on due to their ratings, even when it doesn't make a lot of sense. 

I don't doubt for a second that Dany will go mad queen in the books & burn King's Landing. But I think the steps to get her to that place will be vastly different. For one, the show eliminated Aegon (Or Fake Aegon.) Who is the exact opposite of Jon. If Aegon is a pretender, it doesn't really matter. He's been raised to be a good king. He's taught history, worked with the small folk, had to endure attacks on his life, he knows what it's like to be hungry. There are similar to Egg's travels in the Dunk & Egg novels. Jon was raised as a bastard, but also sheltered and brought up in a Lord's house, which is why he is insufferable in A Game of Thrones once he arrives at the wall. Anyway, beyond being a third Targ, Aegon's plot means that Dany would likely be removing him from the Throne, and he would have the support of Dorne and the Stormland, and probably took King's Landing from Cersei. This means that Dany would be in the North, losing her people to the Others. Then when they beat the army of the dead, and the south still is like "whatever" she can be upset ... and there's a fake Targaryan on the throne. 

I also think they need more/some women in their writers room. Brienne wouldn't sleep with Jaime and go out ugly crying into the cold in her bathrobe after him. 

There's also so much history about these characters that's just missing from the show. They skipped Tyrion's dark times altogether, not that anyone wants to see him rape a prostitute and wander around drunk, but seeing him laugh with Jaime about his "first wife" was just sad. 

I'm not very coherent and I waited until I thought I might be but I just have so many thoughts and I'm kind of super mad at the writers/showrunners for asking for fewer episodes, because so much could be avoided. I'm reading stuff online that makes a lot more sense than what we got. 

It's a show with great acting, production value, awesome music, sound, cinematography, and absolutely painful writing. Why was there a kid playing with a toy car? Why the sudden change in dialogue to modern slang? Why wouldn't there be a scorpion in the Red Keep? Why did Euron look at the camera to laugh about killing Jaime Lannister? 

[VelociRapture]

The show is going downhill, but luckily the memes aren’t:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

That last one is pretty appropriate given the great discussion on here. ?

[TuringMachine]

I love this person's recaps:

https://imgur.com/a/CoyWKMP

[JenniferJuniper]

I'm not spoiling much, but you shouldn't be reading out here if you don't want to spoiled!

I knew it was going to be hard to wrap the show up in 6 episodes.  But I don't think I could have imagined just how bad the writing was going to get.  We've come to know these characters, followed them for years, watched their relationships develop and became wrapped up in their arcs only to see them collapse for the sake of winding everything down in a hurry. 

I'll just pick on one relatively minor one.  Arya. 

Spoiler

The bad ass fearless hero.  The Hound "Girl, you best skeedaddle if you don't want to die".  Arya "Thanks, Sandor!  I'm going run off like a scared little girl now!"   WTAF.

 

[Maggie Mae]

7 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

 

I'll just pick on one relatively minor one.  Arya. 

  Hide contents

The bad ass fearless hero.  The Hound "Girl, you best skeedaddle if you don't want to die".  Arya "Thanks, Sandor!  I'm going run off like a scared little girl now!"   WTAF.

 

And then, instead of remembering how she lived in King's Landing, explored the Red Keep, chased cats and went deep into the tunnels and found a secret way out, she decides to wander around the streets while the city is being sacked. 

[JenniferJuniper]

3 minutes ago, Maggie Mae said:

And then, instead of remembering how she lived in King's Landing, explored the Red Keep, chased cats and went deep into the tunnels and found a secret way out, she decides to wander around the streets while the city is being sacked. 

And still

Spoiler

manages to survive when everyone else is turned to ashes.  

Don't get me started on Jaime. 

And Dany...

Spoiler

Did I say "break" the wheel.  My bad.  I meant "burn" the wheel.  And everything else with it. 

 

[Maggie Mae]

Maybe her getting on to that white horse was her death. 

Maybe they are all dead and this is just Dr Strange Bran looking at all the possible outcomes. 

For real though, one of the showrunners said that they wanted to show the perspective of the smallfolk and wanted to use Arya to do it. They couldn't pick a random person, like in Hardhome. Or show the effect it has on Davos, who grew up in Flea Bottom. Or Jon Snow. Nope, has to be Arya. The faceless assassin who is trained in getting in and out of places unseen. 

Why didn't they adapt her season 2 and 3 character to follow the books, then? That was her entire story - see what the effect war has on smallfolk. Same with Brienne's in book 4, which they didn't even touch. 

I guess we'll never know what/who Varys had in that box way back when, or what he did with it or what he saw in the fires. 

[AliceInFundyland]

I found Jon's looks of horror much more appropriate to his character and what was going on.. Arya's presence was silly. Nobody believed she was going to kill Cersei. And her goodbye to the Hound didn't warrant the rest of it.

I bet there was much more about her resolution and path back to family from faceless killer and revenge bent adolescent that we're missing.

Meanwhile, based on what we've seen on the show - Davos is very sympathetic to children. You're right @Maggie Mae he would have worked better to show all that chaos from the ground.

I'm listening to the audio books since I packed my copies.

Oh George. Some interview I read reached out to him for a comment. They used an expression to describe his response like "pained and palpable sigh of frustration"

 I'll renew my faith in you good sir. We will still see what you wanted.

I am never going to give up my love of Peter Dinklage. He was the first one cast. He may be more handsome and suave than book Tyrion, but I love him. I was thrilled by that. 

I was bummed about Varys. I sort of wanted the two of them to outlive everyone else with the hidden third Targaryen.

Also, if we aren't rewarded with some gratuitous shot of a happy Yara on her throne (perhaps with a nice lady partner) I'll be sad. Her tv plot has gone quite well. She worked hard. And really, she should get to have her islands with no logistical issues at this point.

Edited May 14, 2019 by AliceInFundyland

[NakedKnees]

17 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

I don’t know how ethically or intelligently Greyworm is acting though. He knew the bells ringing were the signal that the city had surrendered. He stopped fighting when he heard them and allowed the Lannister soldiers to surrender. But the second Dany chose to continue attacking the city he picked up a spear and impaled a soldier. He willingly chose to slaughter soldiers and innocent civilians who had surrendered, all of them people who had no say in Missandei’s death. That’s not ethical in any sense of the word. It’s not intelligent either since more of their soldiers died than necessary by continuing the fight and they might very well need those soldiers if the rest of the country doesn’t accept Dany as Queen or if they have to fight Jon and the North after what they witnessed at King’s Landing.

As for Jon and Dany, it’s as consistent with his character for him not to be able to have a relationship with her as it is for hers to be fine with it. I know it’s fictional, but I just can’t bring myself to blame Jon for not being able to be with her to avoid war. We could as easily argue that Dany shouldn’t have put him in a position where he had to make a choice between warfare and incest - had she accepted that he really doesn’t want the throne and proven that she was a worthy leader maybe Varys wouldn’t have switched his allegiance and other characters wouldn’t be muttering around her.

Like others, I don’t think Dany is insane. She’s acting out of a desire for revenge and anger, but she’s still sane. That, in my opinion, is much scarier than Dany being insane because it means she knows exactly what she’s doing and she doesn’t care about who gets hurt. I don’t know if she even has morals or ethics left at this point. When you purposely choose to continue killing people who have surrendered, a vast number of them unarmed civilians who don’t have a bone in this fight other than not wanting to die, can you really claim to have any morals left? 

I think it’s an interesting turn for the show. It’s consistent with Martin’s theme of power corrupting and with the hints planted about Dany all along. And with his insistence that the dragons are forces of pure destruction, not good. What in their world can offer more power than a fully grown dragon? I don’t think it’s a mistake that it’s Dany who becomes corrupted at this point, not when she has ambition for ruling and what amounts to a flying WMD. But the show absolutely went about it so poorly that it feels rushed and disjointed and unrealistic. Given more time they could have really expanded on those hints and explored Dany’s spiral more fully, as well as developed a more realistic romance between Dany and Jon, but they were so focused on finishing now that this is the result we get. 

I’m starting to think they purposely sacrificed Jamie’s redemption arc for that brief show of humanity we got out of Cersei. Who else would she have turned to with that reaction in a moment like that? No one. It wouldn’t have felt genuine and at the very least those last scenes between Jamie and Cersei did feel genuine and true to their characters. Jamie fought so hard to escape that toxic relationship and it’s upsetting he ultimately gave in to it at the end, but it’s somewhat consistent with who he is. He’s always struggled to do the right thing and he’s always struggled to be a better man and at the very end all he could do was what he knew best - return to Cersei and comfort her in those last moments they had together. 

I did like Arya’s last moments with The Hound though and how his last lesson for her was not to become obsessed with revenge because it only leads to one thing. That last moment where she uses his real name was beautiful - you can see just how much they care about one another and how sad she is to lose her another father figure. It reminded me of when Syrio sacrificed himself to protect her during Season One. 

So I'm feeling disappointed overall. They could have handled Dany’s arc with so much more care than they have and really developed it into something special. Instead they’re just going for cheap storytelling because they backed themselves into a corner by only have eight seasons total. I am glad that two major characters actually died this week, but I think more of them should have considering the absolute chaos that was King’s landing being attacked by a fully grown Dragon. I just find it kind of unbelievable that Arya in particular would survive when she was right in the heart of the attack, just like I find it unrealistic that Jon survived Viserion when he was breathing ice fire onto the half-wall thing Jon was hiding behind during the Battle of Winterfell or how it’s unrealistic to show Tyrion getting hit on the head by the mast last episode only to have nothing come of it because he survives too. 

I am curious how they intend to end it all. I think it’s clear that Dany isn’t going to survive at this point and Jon will likely be the one to kill her. I’m more curious about the other characters though and what kind of further destruction Dany will cause before she dies. Will she manage to kill Sansa for snitching to Tyrion? If she dies then she’s lost the North and the Starks completely - there’d be no avoiding war at that point, especially if their family in the Vale (Sweet Robin) and the Riverlands (is Edmure Tully even alive?) join with them. Will she kill Tyrion for telling Varys and for setting Jamie free? Will Davos die because he speaks out against her publicly due to what he saw? Will Greyworm die because of her poor choices like all the other brown people on the show have recently? Will Drogon die for remaining loyal to his Mother or will Jon be able to control him because he has Targaryen blood? What will happen to Brienne and Podrick? Will they remain loyal to the Starks or switch to Dany if they need to? How about Yara and the Reeds? Do they even matter now? I feel like they don’t because they would have played a role at this point if they did. Are there even any other characters left that I’m forgetting at this point?

ETA: Just got through this article and it’s dead on with the three different assessments in my opinion. The problem isn’t the direction the show has taken, it’s with how they went about doing it:

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2019/05/game-thrones-season-8-episode-5-review/589297/

Side note: This response started in reply to @VelociRapture's reply to my post, but as I wrote I realized I was replying to a lot of general discussion here. This was a great conversation to check back in on, FJ is awesome, but I hope noting this explains why it got a bit lengthy.

Regarding Grey Worm, you make some really good points. Looking back, "ethical" wasn't the correct word for me to use, but I do think his deep loyalty to Dany is what I was trying to refer to. I'm not an expert on warfare and lean pacifist personally, but what was he supposed to do when his leader clearly continued the attack after the city surrendered? This universe's code for soldiers hasn't seemed to have much space for disobeying orders, although I realize it's a stretch to call Dany's decision to keep fighting after the bells were rung "orders." I haven't rewatched the episode so I could be remembering incorrectly, but didn't Jon and Davos and everyone else continue to fight (at least initially) after Grey Worm attacked the unarmed Lannister front lines? Basically, I used the term "ethical" too loosely but I do think it will be interesting to see where genuine loyalties to Dany lie next week (and Grey Worm is still the only one I think will be fully on her side).

I also know you're right regarding Jon's right to not continue an incestuous relationship, and I tried to frame my comment as light heartedly as I could. I realize it's something that perhaps can never be framed light heartedly. On the subject of their romantic relationship though, I'm not really happy with how much Jon is refusing to even talk about it. It makes sense that he doesn't want to continue it, but I would think the obvious solution of marrying and ruling together a la the old-fashioned Targaryens at least merits a conversation. Tyrion is the only one who has suggested it so far. It wasn't that important this past episode, but it may still be important for the ending, although the horror of the sacking of King's Landing and the risky position Sansa is in will probably have affected Jon enough that a peaceful relationship between him and Dany is entirely off the table now.

I don't consider Dany insane either, although the term "mad" is probably more accurate for this discussion due to her mental state is constantly compared to her father's (within the universe itself as well as fandom). To talk about it in terms of sanity sounds either subjective or armchair-diagnose-ish to me. I realize it's fiction, but I just don't think I have the knowledge base to accurately describe what "sanity" is for a person, real or not. 

I do think her decision to attack the city after its surrender was most likely made spontaneously, which is why I'd describe it as "snapping." It would have taken a lot of self control that her character has never particularly had to just roll back her attack when the bells rang. Regardless of whether her decision to continue attacking was premeditated or not, I think she'll stand by it in the final episode. Is her behavior in Westeros profoundly different from The Mad King's last words of "burn them all" and assassination of Rickard and Brandon Stark? Not really, but if you mix in how much she did to help stop the Night King plus her past anti-slavery actions, you could have a utilitarian argument for her still having more than a shred of ethics, at least when compared with Cersei and the Mad King.

Maybe I'll see some more nuance with the end of Jamie's character arc with time, but I still think we could have gotten that same reaction out of Cersei in the end with Jamie still "standing his ground" and having actually grown out of their relationship emotionally. I see how it wasn't exactly unrealistic- their relationship was toxic and abusive but they were both obsessed with it- it's just not a satisfying end to their story for me.

A bit random, but have we seen any traumatic brain injuries in Game of Thrones? Hodor? That circumstance was so much more fantastical than the carnage and physical destruction featured in the last episode though. I honestly don't think it's completely impossible that some individuals such as Arya could have survived the attack from the ground of King's landing, but that was still a lot of rubble falling and a lot of times to go unconscious. 

[47of74]

A priest friend of mine realized something was interesting about the Lannister coat of arms;

(Yeah he was being sarcastic about dear friend)

[VelociRapture]

10 hours ago, NakedKnees said:

Side note: This response started in reply to @VelociRapture's reply to my post, but as I wrote I realized I was replying to a lot of general discussion here. This was a great conversation to check back in on, FJ is awesome, but I hope noting this explains why it got a bit lengthy.

Regarding Grey Worm, you make some really good points. Looking back, "ethical" wasn't the correct word for me to use, but I do think his deep loyalty to Dany is what I was trying to refer to. I'm not an expert on warfare and lean pacifist personally, but what was he supposed to do when his leader clearly continued the attack after the city surrendered? This universe's code for soldiers hasn't seemed to have much space for disobeying orders, although I realize it's a stretch to call Dany's decision to keep fighting after the bells were rung "orders." I haven't rewatched the episode so I could be remembering incorrectly, but didn't Jon and Davos and everyone else continue to fight (at least initially) after Grey Worm attacked the unarmed Lannister front lines? Basically, I used the term "ethical" too loosely but I do think it will be interesting to see where genuine loyalties to Dany lie next week (and Grey Worm is still the only one I think will be fully on her side).

I also know you're right regarding Jon's right to not continue an incestuous relationship, and I tried to frame my comment as light heartedly as I could. I realize it's something that perhaps can never be framed light heartedly. On the subject of their romantic relationship though, I'm not really happy with how much Jon is refusing to even talk about it. It makes sense that he doesn't want to continue it, but I would think the obvious solution of marrying and ruling together a la the old-fashioned Targaryens at least merits a conversation. Tyrion is the only one who has suggested it so far. It wasn't that important this past episode, but it may still be important for the ending, although the horror of the sacking of King's Landing and the risky position Sansa is in will probably have affected Jon enough that a peaceful relationship between him and Dany is entirely off the table now.

I don't consider Dany insane either, although the term "mad" is probably more accurate for this discussion due to her mental state is constantly compared to her father's (within the universe itself as well as fandom). To talk about it in terms of sanity sounds either subjective or armchair-diagnose-ish to me. I realize it's fiction, but I just don't think I have the knowledge base to accurately describe what "sanity" is for a person, real or not. 

I do think her decision to attack the city after its surrender was most likely made spontaneously, which is why I'd describe it as "snapping." It would have taken a lot of self control that her character has never particularly had to just roll back her attack when the bells rang. Regardless of whether her decision to continue attacking was premeditated or not, I think she'll stand by it in the final episode. Is her behavior in Westeros profoundly different from The Mad King's last words of "burn them all" and assassination of Rickard and Brandon Stark? Not really, but if you mix in how much she did to help stop the Night King plus her past anti-slavery actions, you could have a utilitarian argument for her still having more than a shred of ethics, at least when compared with Cersei and the Mad King.

Maybe I'll see some more nuance with the end of Jamie's character arc with time, but I still think we could have gotten that same reaction out of Cersei in the end with Jamie still "standing his ground" and having actually grown out of their relationship emotionally. I see how it wasn't exactly unrealistic- their relationship was toxic and abusive but they were both obsessed with it- it's just not a satisfying end to their story for me.

A bit random, but have we seen any traumatic brain injuries in Game of Thrones? Hodor? That circumstance was so much more fantastical than the carnage and physical destruction featured in the last episode though. I honestly don't think it's completely impossible that some individuals such as Arya could have survived the attack from the ground of King's landing, but that was still a lot of rubble falling and a lot of times to go unconscious. 

I see your point. Loyalty to Dany is definitely a strong characteristic of Greyworm’s. But ethical definitely would have been not continuing on to slaughter countless unarmed citizens or soldiers who had surrendered though. The Lannister soldiers wouldn’t have thrown down their arms if they didn’t expect to be taken prisoner, so I honestly don’t think what happened is per the usual rules of warfare even for Westeros. 

Jon and Davos did not continue the attack initially. They attempted to stop their men from joining in, another sign this wasn’t warfare as expected. They only rejoined when the enemy soldiers began fighting back because then they had to defend themselves. They wouldn’t have rejoined the fight otherwise. 

I honestly see why Jon doesn’t even want to talk about a relationship with Dany. He was raised in the North by his mother’s family - incest is not the nor there and he was raised to view it in a very negative light. I honestly wouldn’t be shocked if he’s struggling with a great deal of shame and guilt over having ever had a relationship with her now that he knows - but I also think he’s struggling a great deal with still being attracted to her at the same time. He’s likely got a bunch of conflicting emotions bouncing around and I know just how tough it can be for me to talk about stuff when that happens to me. I know you were 100% joking. I’ve seen people seriously or half-jokingly suggest that he should have just slept with her to avoid what happened and it honestly just makes me very uncomfortable because that would be an ethical grey area - would it be considered consenting if he felt he had no choice? Or would it be considered rape because he felt he had no other way of saving people, meaning he felt forced? I don't know. I’m glad they didn’t go there though. 

And I agree with pretty much your entire point about Dany. She’s not mad, she’s seriously pissed off and dealing with a LOT emotionally this season. I do think she was planning to follow a scorched earth policy ahead of time anyways, but I don’t think she decided that for sure until the bells were ringing like you stated. She saw the Red Keep, the symbol of everything her family had and lost, and I think it was just too much for her to deal with given the circumstances. That’s understandable enough because everyone has been there at some point - most people just don’t have armies and dragons to wreak absolute havoc with thankfully. That doesn’t excuse her (and mainly the show runners) though. She still willingly chose to kill countless unarmed civilians when she didn’t necessarily have to. She’s not her father by any means, but she’s not really much better than him in some ways either. 

[Chickenbutt]

So Mr. Butt said this...…"Could Brienne be pregnant and carrying a Lannister baby? More shows in the future?"

Crazy man. 

[Maggie Mae]

9 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I honestly see why Jon doesn’t even want to talk about a relationship with Dany. He was raised in the North by his mother’s family - incest is not the nor there and he was raised to view it in a very negative light. 

That's the problem with this season, IMO. No one is talking to each other*. I would have liked to have seen some more scenes with people interacting and talking about succession. Let's say that Dany does take the throne. We've been told (by an unreliable person) that she can not bear children. What's her end game? Who is her heir, if she's claiming her throne again and means to rule? 

What about Arya? How has no one asked her what she plans to do next? I mean, she doesn't want to be a Lady, but you'd think Sansa/Bran would want to know if they need to keep a room for her or find her a mate or plan on keeping her around. What's Sansa's plan? I'd guess they are all waiting for the outcome of the Battle for King's Landing, but in the mean time, there are castles to distribute in the North and people to feed and people to manage. She's got a good relationship with the Vale, but who is holding Riverrun, her mother's ancestral home? (And the liege lords of the Twins, which would have been a good castle to offer Brann when he was like "do you have two castles for me?" "why, yes, we do, actually.") Even a conversation where Sansa knew that Gendry proposed and asks Arya what her plan is. Would Sansa understand? Or would she try and push the relationship because she's changed? She's still practical, and Gendry** would not be a bad husband. Maybe while Sansa's away, she's falling in love with the Blacksmith Lord of Storm's End. 

*I'm also not sure that Aunt/Nephew political marriages would be frowned upon in the North, but because Varys said it was, I guess that's the shows view. 

** Did Dany require him to fight? I hope not, I'd think his skills as a blacksmith would be more valuable to her. 

I think I have trouble separating the show from the book, and the show portrays a much less brutal world. Not that we need to see people being wed to infants and Lady Hornwood eating her own fingers, but a little more emphasis on the way these arranged marriages have fucked everyone over would be nice.

1 minute ago, Chickenbutt said:

So Mr. Butt said this...…"Could Brienne be pregnant and carrying a Lannister baby? More shows in the future?"

Crazy man. 

In theory, Dany, Brienne, and Arya could all be pregnant. 

I really don't want a super special twist at the end where Jon and Dany live together in the North after faking her death and flying away on a dragon. I don't want anymore stupid pregnancy storylines, the Cersei one was dumb enough. 

 

*There will be more shows, though! There are a couple of spin-offs/prequels in the works at HBO 

[clueliss]

The problem with Jon just sleeping with Dany to prevent what he thought might happen - is that isn't Jon.  Jon is the guy who was honest to a fault when Cersei asked him to bend the knee and he said he'd already bended the knee to Dany leaving Davos and Tyrion both sputtering.  He ticked his own men off at the wall because the 'right' thing to do was keep the Wildings on to help.    

 

[VelociRapture]

Heres an interesting article. It’s an interview with a History Professor at Cornell:

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2019/05/real-history-explains-game-throness-latest-twist/589357/

In it, he talks about similarities between the Battle at King’s Landing and battles in history. He says that Dany’s statement about their mercy benefitting future generations struck him as sounding like something the Nazis would say (ouch!) He also points out two instances of cities resisting Athens in the ancient world and his they compare to this battle, as well as talking about the use of WMDs (or dragons.) 

[clueliss]

reading now and I flinched at the Hiroshima bit.  ouch and well yeah.  We did that.  

And, I did reflect over the last two days that in light of Dany 'breaking the wheel' that it is somewhat fitting that King's Landing & the red keep get razed if they are indeed heading in the direction of breaking the wheel, inventing something new.  Also a bit fitting in that Aegon I conquered Westeros there etc etc etc and therefore in a way she's setting fire to her family  history.

[AliceInFundyland]

I do not want more shows out of HBO.

Nope.

They managed to do 50/50 on what they had with great source material.

And burnt out the creative directors.

All I want now is George's version.

I do not want this to become a some sort of epic thing.

Nonononom