Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon

[Jinder Roles]

@Maggie Mae Yes!. I’m really disappointed by the lack of use of magic these past two seasons. I’d like to know what Melisandre did in Essos, more about the NK, more about the crypts, The Children and Quaithe. 

They could have easily gotten two more seasons on GOT, but I think D&D are over it. 

The Night King really waited 8000 years to go out like that. Lmao. He needs to have a chat with his security detail. 

And yeah, more main characters definitely should have died. The fact that Sam and Jaime are even alive. 

The Dothraki charge was beautiful though. We’ve seen how devastating a charge can be and to see them run back scared illustrated how formidable the enemy was.  

Edited to ask: Do we still need to post under spoilers when the thread title warns of spoilers??

Edited April 29, 2019 by Jinder Roles

[Silas]

Spoiler

I have a lot of thoughts about last night's episode and not even sure where to start.

The ending did nothing for me. I understand Arya was training for this moment pretty much all of her life but I am not a fan of the last-minute hero saves the day trope. The heroes are losing ground, all hope looks lost, everyone is in a corner and...bam! Out pops a person flying in to save the day. (She literally flew too, had no idea Arya was part flying squirrel). It's a tale literally as old as time and I was hoping GoT would have something a little different up their sleeve. I actually laughed when I saw Arya and laughter, I'm pretty sure, was not their desired reaction from the audience. I'm sorry y'all lol I just...the execution was bad for me.

There's also the issue of pacing, for me anyway. The opening was amazing but after that it just felt like flapping around for a good sixty minutes. Straining to see what happened put me even more on edge only for...nothing to really happen for a very, very long time into the episode. There was all of this super fast paced action sequences that were hard to keep up with in the dark and nothing really major happened during them. I refused to blink for no reason! Also while I typically despise people who just want MoRe DeAth...I can't really believe only a few of our semi-major characters were lost? All of this hype and nothing. They battled an army of the undead! But I am lowkey butthurt that Jorah's death took up about .2 seconds of an extended episode.

It wasn't a bad episode...I just felt like it didn't deliver on my expectations. Which is fine, not everything can. At the end of the day I find the political maneuvering far more interesting anyway so the next few episodes will probably be more my speed! 

*Also this is my first time using a spoiler tag so hopefully it worked. 

 

[VelociRapture]

4 hours ago, TuringMachine said:

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I'm not disappointed that Arya killed the night king, but I'm disappointed Jon didn't do anything heroic.  The night king was his fight, and he barely participated. So what's the point of his character? Why did the lord of light bring him back? What's the point of him being the heir to the iron throne?

I'm also very confused with the let's just immediately wipe out all the Dothraki. What was the strategy there? They knew they didn't have a big enough army to fight the wights so they send a subset of the army on a suicide mission with no obvious benefit? I don't get it.

As for the crypts, that made me so mad. The Starks are the ones that built the wall with magic to stop the dead from coming, they kept manning the wall for generations anticipated their return, their motto was a warning about the night king, and then they just bury their dead like normal? Why didn't they have a tradition of burning the bodies? Or putting some of the wall magic in the crypts? It doesn't make any sense to me.

I have to give this episode credit though, it did surprise me. I was certain Grey Worm was toast. I did not think Jon was going to be insignificant to the fight (but I have mixed feelings on that one)

And Lyanna was the saddest death for me. She's my fav

 

Spoiler

Jon definitely thought the NK was his fight... the NK obviously didn’t agree that Jon was his fight though. We only ever get Jon’s perspective and he very clearly views himself as the hero in most situations (which is actually pretty normal), but the NK had other plans and goals that didn’t include him at all. This was never really about Jon and the NK - it was always going to be about the NK and the Three Eyed Raven. It’s a good reminder that we can sometimes get blinded by our own importance in the overall story of life.

As for the Starks and the Wall, I think it’s only alleged that they helped build it with the Children of the Forest and the giants. I don’t know if that was ever confirmed. Even if it was, though, it was built 8,000 years prior to ASOFAI even begins. Truth easily becomes legend in that length of time and their motto clearly changed to refer to the actual changing of the seasons. It’s absolutely possible that their traditions of disposing if their dead also changed in that time as they began to forget the truth and start to believe it was all just a legend to scare children into behaving. 

 

[TuringMachine]

19 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

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Jon definitely thought the NK was his fight... the NK obviously didn’t agree that Jon was his fight though. We only ever get Jon’s perspective and he very clearly views himself as the hero in most situations (which is actually pretty normal), but the NK had other plans and goals that didn’t include him at all. This was never really about Jon and the NK - it was always going to be about the NK and the Three Eyed Raven. It’s a good reminder that we can sometimes get blinded by our own importance in the overall story of life.

As for the Starks and the Wall, I think it’s only alleged that they helped build it with the Children of the Forest and the giants. I don’t know if that was ever confirmed. Even if it was, though, it was built 8,000 years prior to ASOFAI even begins. Truth easily becomes legend in that length of time and their motto clearly changed to refer to the actual changing of the seasons. It’s absolutely possible that their traditions of disposing if their dead also changed in that time as they began to forget the truth and start to believe it was all just a legend to scare children into behaving. 

 

Spoiler

You do make a lot of valid points.  I'm trying to hold off making final judgements about this episode until we see the rest of the season, because a lot could still happen. But I need there to be more to Jon's story. The lord of light brought him back. His conception and birth is why the rebellion happened. The three eyed raven thought it was very important Jon knew who he was (in the little time he had left, the first three eyed raven felt it important that Bran see what happened at the tower of joy, after becoming the three eyed raven Bran still thought it was important to see, then he made sure Sam told Jon before the battle). I thought that was all leading up to Jon being the one who would defeat the night king. I'm ok with that not being the case, but if it leads to something else. 

 

[VelociRapture]

11 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

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You do make a lot of valid points.  I'm trying to hold off making final judgements about this episode until we see the rest of the season, because a lot could still happen. But I need there to be more to Jon's story. The lord of light brought him back. His conception and birth is why the rebellion happened. The three eyed raven thought it was very important Jon knew who he was (in the little time he had left, the first three eyed raven felt it important that Bran see what happened at the tower of joy, after becoming the three eyed raven Bran still thought it was important to see, then he made sure Sam told Jon before the battle). I thought that was all leading up to Jon being the one who would defeat the night king. I'm ok with that not being the case, but if it leads to something else. 

 

Spoiler

I agree. There’s been so much buildup surrounding Jon’s parentage and background. It’s definitely leading up to something big and I’m kind of excited to see just what that is at this point. I don’t think it’d be enough to just defeat Cersei. I think it’s likely he’ll end up ruling in some capacity, with or without Daenerys. 

 

[LittleOwl]

Spoiler

My main question is, like for the battle of Helms Deep in LOTR : WHO IS THE POOR SOUL WHO HAS TO CLEAN UP!? 

Will it be like Mr Filch and his broom sweeping up at the end of the Battle of Hogwarts? 

 

[clueliss]

The Ringer is mostly a sports site - but I follow them because of their coverage of GOT (and the in depth knowledge of the material I can find there).  (Don't read the link below if you haven't seen ep 3 and don't want spoilers)

https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/4/30/18523472/ask-the-maester-night-king-dragonfire-targaryen-valyrian-steel-bran

 

[VelociRapture]

2 hours ago, LittleOwl said:

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My main question is, like for the battle of Helms Deep in LOTR : WHO IS THE POOR SOUL WHO HAS TO CLEAN UP!? 

Will it be like Mr Filch and his broom sweeping up at the end of the Battle of Hogwarts? 

 

Spoiler

I actually mentioned to my husband how badly I feel for the servants at Winterfell last night. Can you imagine surviving what amounts to the apocalypse, watching people you love die horribly, see your place of employment destroyed, and then be expected to make the beds and serve fresh tea immediately afterwards? All while walking around calmly and like nothing weird happened? And yeah, that’s not even mentioning all the corpses that have to be piled up and destroyed now. 

 

Spoiler

 

@clueliss I’ve only read the opening part about Jon and I can’t stop laughing at how ridiculously accurate that is. Dany definitely deserves a good deal of blame as well for episode 3 - they both acted impulsively and didn’t have a solid plan for battle. I saw this though and I feel like this is actually a fairly accurate summation of Jon Snow:

Seriously. It seems like there’s always a woman close by ready to save his ass when he messes something up. That’s why he died at Castle Black and Melisandre had to bring him back - no women around to stop the assassination from happening in the first place. ?

 

 

[clueliss]

Love that meme - although it leaves out Ygritte (would he have survived behind the wall without her?)

[LittleOwl]

Spoiler

@VelociRapture How many of the serving class actually made it?  Jon has some serious dusting to do. 

 

[VelociRapture]

3 hours ago, LittleOwl said:

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@VelociRapture How many of the serving class actually made it?  Jon has some serious dusting to do. 

 

Spoiler

I’d give such good money to see the ruling class have to actually do basic chores on that show. I have a feeling it’s go a lot like this:

- Dany tries lighting a Fire in the fireplace, so food can be made - but she uses her dragon and accidentally burns down half the Great Hall.

- Jon tries using a feather duster, but has no clue what to do. He gets frustrated, tells Sansa to do it instead (she always seems to do his job for him lately), and runs off to do something “heroic” (like mope around the castle or hunt for food they don’t actually need - basically something useless.) 

- Arya is asked to sew some blankets or clothes or something, but it pisses her off so she stabs the person with needle and hides their body with the ones that already need to be burnt. 

- Tyrion is asked to hand out ale to the thirsty workers, but he drinks it all himself and has to be put to bed to sleep it off.

- Varys disappears before anyone can ask him to help, only to reappear when the work is done with fresh information he says is from his Little Birds (it’s not - he made it up so he didn’t have to help.) 

- Bran would be asked to help and would respond by saying, “I’m going to go now,” before warging into a group of ravens for a reason not explained. 

 

[AliceInFundyland]

When the LOTR battle for Helms Deep began I remember being more invested and excited for a battle than any battle sequence in the history of time.

And that adaptation was so damn good.. It was

Battle for Hogwarts... Pretty much the same thing.

This battle should have been written down by the author first.

That's what's wrong. It needed to be adapted... Not.. Envisioned.

It was still OK. But in the book everyone would have been defined and we would have known what their fates were supposed to be! 7 books in we'd know.

[bird]

I read the books nearly 9 years ago and had theories and ideas for how things might turn out but the series is so different I've completely forgotten who I thought the 3rd person was (I think he doesn't exist in the show) or why I thought it. I've never discussed it (or any TV show to be honest) with anyone before but last night after watching the recent episode I just couldn't wind down. I've never been so tense watching anything before!! So I came to read your opinions. Didn't help me sleep but has left me wondering if we will ever get the books. I'd really like the conclusion! 

[clueliss]

Interesting analysis

https://www.yahoo.com/news/game-thrones-survivors-share-suspicious-153910343.html

[VelociRapture]

On 5/1/2019 at 6:03 AM, bird said:

I read the books nearly 9 years ago and had theories and ideas for how things might turn out but the series is so different I've completely forgotten who I thought the 3rd person was (I think he doesn't exist in the show) or why I thought it. I've never discussed it (or any TV show to be honest) with anyone before but last night after watching the recent episode I just couldn't wind down. I've never been so tense watching anything before!! So I came to read your opinions. Didn't help me sleep but has left me wondering if we will ever get the books. I'd really like the conclusion! 

In the books Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar and Elia, is switched with another baby right before the sack of the Red Keep. He’s raised in Essos in secret by a Knight or servant loyal to the Targaryens and had only just landed and started his attack on Westeros when the last book ended. He was not included on the show beyond being killed offscreen as an infant, though they did opt to give Jon his name - which still doesn’t make sense to me since Rhaegar already had a kid named Aegon, but whatever.

Jon still hasn’t been revealed as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna in the books. As far as the books are concerned he’s still a bastard and Lyanna was still kidnapped by Rhaegar. And Dany is still in Essos doing whatever it is she’s doing.

So the three riders of the Dragons in the books would be Dany, Aegon, and Jon.  

On 4/30/2019 at 10:56 PM, AliceInFundyland said:

When the LOTR battle for Helms Deep began I remember being more invested and excited for a battle than any battle sequence in the history of time.

And that adaptation was so damn good.. It was

Battle for Hogwarts... Pretty much the same thing.

This battle should have been written down by the author first.

That's what's wrong. It needed to be adapted... Not.. Envisioned.

It was still OK. But in the book everyone would have been defined and we would have known what their fates were supposed to be! 7 books in we'd know.

I think the show has definitely suffered without material from Martin to draw from. I know he’s was in some sort of contact with them and he told them certain things that will happen in the story (like the burning of Shireen apparently), but without more direct involvement and finished books the show has floundered badly at times. The Dorne storyline is pretty much the perfect example of that. In the books it’s actually a pretty great storyline and has way more developed characters, but the show mangled the characters and storyline so badly. They cast fantastic actors (as they have for pretty much every role), but the Dorne actors were given really bad storylines to work with unfortunately and I feel like that entire storyline really dragged things down in prior seasons.

Battle of Hogwarts was decent. I think some of the changes they made were pretty poor ones and it impacted how I view the battle as a whole, but it could have been worse. 

Helm’s Deep was a phenomenal adaptation. The Director of Episode 3 actually said he studied Helm’s Deep to get a sense of how to pace the action of such a length battle sequence. I think that part he definitely excelled at - there was a great balance between the action and the quieter (but still creepy) scenes. It helped keep people invested in the story and characters. 

[clueliss]

I keep seeing - related to the Battle of Winterfell

Quote

criticism of the number of major characters making it through the battle of Winterfell.

But as I think of it.  It is Martin who is notorious for killing off big characters.  David & Dan, without having Martin to 'crib' off of would not necessarily be so inclined since that is not a Hollywood sort of notition (nor is is typical of mainstream publishing).  And while they may have spent 3 days (or so I heard) with Martin getting the high points is not the same as having legitimate source material to build off of.  Heck for that matter I believe in the books, Beric Dondarrion is not alive in the novels but was alive until S3 in the HBO series.  

All this to say - this is why I'm looking forward to the day when Winds of Winter will finally be published.

 

 

[bird]

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

In the books Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar and Elia, is switched with another baby right before the sack of the Red Keep. He’s raised in Essos in secret by a Knight or servant loyal to the Targaryens and had only just landed and started his attack on Westeros when the last book ended. He was not included on the show beyond being killed offscreen as an infant, though they did opt to give Jon his name - which still doesn’t make sense to me since Rhaegar already had a kid named Aegon, but whatever.

Jon still hasn’t been revealed as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna in the books. As far as the books are concerned he’s still a bastard and Lyanna was still kidnapped by Rhaegar. And Dany is still in Essos doing whatever it is she’s doing.

So the three riders of the Dragons in the books would be Dany, Aegon, and Jon.  

I think the show has definitely suffered without material from Martin to draw from.

Thanks!!! How do you remember all these details? I got so confused once the show took a different turn and started to forget the books. But I knew there needed to be a third person so I started to wonder if the night king was a dead third person since he rode a dragon. But mainly I've had very few theories and much confusion. I wish I had the next book instead. 

[clueliss]

I recently found this site: https://www.westeros.org/  It has a GOT Wiki.  Covers books and tv.  Run by GRRM's co-authors of The World of Fire & Ice (which I'm currently reading)  (I may have been over there a few minutes ago fact-checking something someone keeps saying about The Golden Company - another of those vastly different between books and tv areas)

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, bird said:

Thanks!!! How do you remember all these details? I got so confused once the show took a different turn and started to forget the books. But I knew there needed to be a third person so I started to wonder if the night king was a dead third person since he rode a dragon. But mainly I've had very few theories and much confusion. I wish I had the next book instead. 

Lol! I honestly don’t remember much. The books are massive and so in-depth that it’s impossible to remember everything. I remember Aegon though because I just thought it was weird that they’d give Jon the same exact name rather than a different one.

2 hours ago, clueliss said:

I keep seeing - related to the Battle of Winterfell

 

Yes, that’s very accurate. Martin is notorious for killing off characters without warning and that’s one of the biggest reasons he’s been so successful - it adds a big dose of realism to his work because death is unpredictable. 

And yes, Beric died for good long ago in the books. The show version kept him alive and he partially took over the role that Lady Stoneheart, zombie Catelyn Stark, had in the books. 

I hope he is able to finish the books. I won’t blame him if he can’t because they’re so massive and in-depth and inspiration can be so fleeting. It’d be nice to eventually see where his version ends up though because I have a feeling the show might leave me feeling disappointed. Martin seems to be hinting and working towards no one getting the throne, whereas I don’t get that feeling with the show.

ETA: I really need to read those books again at some point. I love how Martin writes his female characters as multi-dimensional and complex human beings with brains and ambitions of their own. 

Edited May 2, 2019 by VelociRapture

[clueliss]

I hadn't remembered the Aegon bit at all and have read the books.  I'm wanting to reread the series but in audio this time.  I'm waiting for the tv series to end before I start.  

Granted, it does make me reflect on actual history and all of the princes in the tower pretenders that popped up in English history.  (also the Romanov pretenders).  And makes me wonder if Dave and Dan in the tv series combined them into 1.  

[bird]

I hope I'm not speaking out of turn because I really enjoyed the books but... perhaps if Martin spent a little less time describing the clothing, armour, banners and such of every person he was just about to kill we might have an ending by now. For me it sort of became the cheese sandwiches, coffee and Billy's pan pizza of Westeros. 

[Sacrilicious Twerk-a-Work]

Commence more memeage. I;m a little behind on this thread.

No one: 

Bran: (Samuel L. Jackson 'Black Snake Moan' stare)

Ain't gonna lie. I am still holding out for Nymeria & her pack to swing in at the 11th Hour a la the Vulture Squadron from 'Flash Gordon'. "SQUADRON 42---DIIIIIIIVEE!!!!" *Brian Blessed's cavernous mouth foooorr daaaayyys*

Ghost such good boi. Smooshsmoosh the cuddley bloody-murder pupper ❤️❤️❤️ 

[NakedKnees]

Alright, talking about it this soon after air definitely merits a spoiler.

Spoiler

Missandei! MISSANDEI! MISS. AN. DEI. WHY. NO. WHY. WHY. WHY.

It's crazy that I thought she had a really high chance of dying in episode 3 so I thought I was ready for this, but the way it was delivered in this episode was painful. I think it was the most painful death since Shireen Baratheon, for me at least.

Interesting how relatively quiet Rhaegal's death was in comparison, although that dragon has taken a real beating. I think it indicates that a tidy little marriage between Jon and Dany is not in the cards.

 

[TuringMachine]

Spoiler

My biggest takeaway of the night: How could Jon not hug Ghost goodbye!  He's a monster!

 

[VelociRapture]

6 hours ago, TuringMachine said:

  Reveal hidden contents

My biggest takeaway of the night: How could Jon not hug Ghost goodbye!  He's a monster!

 

Spoiler

I was SO angry about this. I’m glad Jon is sending him North with Tormund because he’ll  e very happy there, but he couldn’t even go over and give him a proper farewell after everything they’ve been through?! I told my husband I hope Jon dies now because it just pissed me off that much.

 

7 hours ago, NakedKnees said:

Alright, talking about it this soon after air definitely merits a spoiler.

  Reveal hidden contents

Missandei! MISSANDEI! MISS. AN. DEI. WHY. NO. WHY. WHY. WHY.

It's crazy that I thought she had a really high chance of dying in episode 3 so I thought I was ready for this, but the way it was delivered in this episode was painful. I think it was the most painful death since Shireen Baratheon, for me at least.

Interesting how relatively quiet Rhaegal's death was in comparison, although that dragon has taken a real beating. I think it indicates that a tidy little marriage between Jon and Dany is not in the cards.

 

Spoiler

This actually pissed be off a lot. I knew either Greyworm or Missandei would die before the end, but I’m really angry it was Missandei. Once again, a female character (Missandei) is being killed off to help propel the storyline of a grief stricken and enraged man (Greyworm.) It’s twice as problematic when you consider Missandei was one of only two named characters of color left on the whole damn show, especially when coupled with Dany’s white savior complex problem that she’s had going on for a long time. Dany’s grief and anger really doesn’t strike true for me - we saw just how expendable the Dothraki and Unsullied were to her last week and the fact that she has a history of abandoning the people of color in Essos when it’s no longer convenient to rule them. Why should I believe she honestly still cared about Missandei at this point?

Theres also the fact that Dany is looking more and more like an idiot and incompetent leader in the last two seasons. I 100% get her motivation and anger - she has worked for this her entire life, has been through some horrific things to get here at all, and suddenly some random guy she barely knows comes forward with a better claim? I’d be pretty furious in her shoes too. But she’s made so many stupid mistakes, especially her decision to throw down with Sansa this week over marching to King’s Landing immediately when, once again, Sansa was making extremely valid points. I think the part where Sansa flat out told Dany that the Northerners are the people Dany hopes to rule and Dany basically not giving a shit is pretty telling about her motivations at this point. She wants what she wants and fuck anyone who won’t worship the ground she walks on as she gets it. I’m not feeling invested in her character at this point and I’m firmly on Varys’ side at this point. I really don’t even want her to survive the show at this point.

The show has done a massive disservice to he character, but maybe this is what Martin was planning all along. Not only has Dany consistently sought power throughout the books and struggled with the responsibilities associated with it, but one of the themes in the books is how power can be such a corrupting influence and Dany is kind of turning out to be the perfect example of that unfortunately.