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Game of Thrones Season 7 & 8 (SPOILERS)


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VelociRapture
16 hours ago, JenniferJuniper said:

I think little Sam is the prince who was promised.

I love him and Gilly. If anything happens to them I’m going to riot. 

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Can i say how much i fucking love Arya?  And that was the most gratuitous cameo ever

A few things: 1. The writing and plot have absolutely suffered since Season Five. This is partly because Martin had to step back from helping them write scripts so he could focus on other project

Lyanna Mormont is still badass.  I want to be here when I grow up.  

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Maggie Mae

I think I'm going to be disappointed, and that the show won't be very similar to the book ending. 

I have hope (but realistically know it won't happen) that George finished the books (both of them) and is waiting for the show to finish before he sends them to his editor. I know it's silly, but it seems like the show stopped adapting and started its own thing after the red wedding, even though there were still two and a half books to adapt from. 

I also really like the magic stuff, and that's all been downplayed on the show. Which is fine, show is for mass audiences and the books are for a rather niche audience of people who want to read tomes of fake history that include a city in the shadow of a mountain where children don't exist, and "oily stone" thrones, prophecies, servants who died and speak only in riddles, vengeful reanimated mothers, direwolves, and mysterious histories of people not alive anymore. Some of it doesn't translate well to screen, some of it is confusing, and I'm sure that if the adapted all of the story lines, it wouldn't be as popular and there would be complaints. 

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AliceInFundyland

Yes. I was hoping for the story of the vengeful reanimated mother.

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Maggie Mae
6 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

Yes. I was hoping for the story of the vengeful reanimated mother.

That one was very surprising as even reading it, i thought "this was meant for tv." 

 

Which makes sense because George got his start writing for TV. 

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Dreadcrumbs
On 4/15/2019 at 2:12 PM, AliceInFundyland said:

@singsingsing There were more boobies at the beginning. And throughout there have been some rather wretched and sickeningly graphic violent scenes. (To women as well) And - just plain violent. At some point Emilia Clarke (Dany) was like, eff this, I am not going to be naked anymore, and the world cheered for her.

The gratuitous violence (especially the violence against women) is why I stopped watching.

It's a shame, because I did find the world and characters to be very interesting. Hell, I started reading the series after watching the first two seasons but I stopped reading in the middle of the second book because I realized GRRM is never going to actually finish the series.

Part of me wants to go back and try again because I was enjoying the story for the most part, and part of me just wants to just use my time to watch other things instead.

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JenniferJuniper
39 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

Yes. I was hoping for the story of the vengeful reanimated mother.

 I think it is possible that we will. Isn't Cat buried in the crypts? There's a promo scene showing Arya running through the crypts absolutely terrified in a very non Arya fashion.

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clueliss

I’ve thought for some time that GRRM has been holding the books until the series is done.  (And season 7 was a rushed mess of a timeline)

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Jinder Roles
Spoiler

Aaaaannnd Jon continues to be dumb. 

I LOVE TORMUND SO MUCH! A shame she and Jaime are in love. 

Also, this episode was rather underwhelming to me (most of the scenes dragged)and filled with fluff. 

I question how D&D could possibly wrap up the story in a nuanced and satisfying way in just 4 more episodes. 

I’m worried they’re going to completely ruin it. 

 

 

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47of74

 

10 hours ago, Jinder Roles said:
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Aaaaannnd Jon continues to be dumb. 

I LOVE TORMUND SO MUCH! A shame she and Jaime are in love. 

Also, this episode was rather underwhelming to me (most of the scenes dragged)and filled with fluff. 

I question how D&D could possibly wrap up the story in a nuanced and satisfying way in just 4 more episodes. 

I’m worried they’re going to completely ruin it. 

 

 

Last night we also had...

Spoiler

A girl has no virginity.

Nearly all the coolest characters sitting around a fire.  All that was missing was the crossing of the streams that would've resulted if The Hound had been in the room.   That would have been a perfect time for Tyrion to finally finish the joke about taking a honeycomb into a house of ill repute.

And my question is what the fornicate is taking so long?  The previous season made it seem like the army of the dead would reach Winterfell in a matter of hours and had people zipping around Westeros like they all had access to private jets.  Now it takes months to go anywhere.

Last night's episode had its moments but I hope the TPTB get on their A game pretty goddamn soon.

 

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TuringMachine

After last night I'm feeling like:

Spoiler

Greyworm is suuuuuper dead. Doesn't he know you can't make plans for the future if you want to survive this show?

I'm very concerned about Brienne now.  Jamie too, That scene was very heartwarming. 

I'm also now moderately concerned that Dany will kill or let Jon die.  Right before you're about to fight for your lives was not the time to tell her you stand in her way of becoming queen bro.

I feel pretty confident that Bran and Dany are safe though. Bran because I don't think they're going for the Night King wins ending and Dany because they need her for post Night King drama.

Everyone else is a toss up for me.

 

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clueliss
Spoiler

Theon is totally toast.  Brienne is likely gone (mentally confirmed for me when Jamie Knighted her).  Tyrion will live but only because Bronn was sent north with the crossbow to off him.  Arya will live because per my rewatch Melissandre told Arya when they met when she took Gendry that they would meet again (and they have not) and since red woman is not in Winerfell there's still that.  Agreed on Grey Worm.  And the last place I would hunker down is the crypts (because they keep saying go there, it's the safest place).  

I've become a bit meh re Moody Jon an Dany as well.

Moments that made the tears well up:  Theon and Sansa reuion.  Brienne standing up for Jamie.  Sam giving Heart's Bane to Jorah.  

 

 

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NakedKnees

I really liked last night's episode. Other spare thoughts:

Spoiler
  • The pacing isn't bothering me. I figure a good chunk of these characters are going to die next episode, so when we look back on the series as a whole, these last two episodes will actually have a lot more resolutions than we're seeing on initial viewing right now.
  • Jamie knighting Brienne was so beautiful. The fireplace, the character choices, her reactions. Just so, so, so beautiful. I think this is an example of the resolution of a plotline.
  • Arya and Gendry! At first I was uncomfortable because I can never remember how "aged up" younger characters are from the books. I like that SOMEONE thought to have sex their last night on earth. I like that everyone around Arya is having trouble really seeing what she's been through and it hits Gendry like a brick- that was emotional for me. I also like how the show seems to have more consensual, enthusiastic, female-driven sex than it used to (also thinking about depictions of Greyworm/Missandei and Dany/Jon last season)
  • I like Theon and Sansa's relationship. I don't really care where exactly it goes, but if they both survive (long shot), I hope they remain close. I've been saying this for years, but they both carry extreme sexualized trauma from the same person, and I think the show would be remiss to not at least recognize the weight of them having that in common.

Predictions:

  • Dragon fire won't kill the Night King
  • The Night King will either be onto the Bran-as-Bait plan, or Bran will have been wrong. 
  • The creation of the Night King is somehow connected to the creation of the three-eyed-raven. 
  • There are going to be some really, really, really tragic zombie versions of characters we love.

 

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Maggie Mae

I wanted Brienne to turn around and Knight Pod, but no. That entire scene was well done, her ancestor Ser Duncan the Tall would be so proud! Between the song - Jenny's Song! The fact that she was being knighted by a Stark sword in Stark hall, while she held the other half of that sword, and the fact that she finally got what she always wanted... yeah, she's super dead. Maybe she'll be a wight soon and Jaime or Pod will have to kill her. 

Dany is having a really hard time realizing that she's not the only person in the room/world with a history. I kept wanting to ask her if she knew why Robert's Rebellion started - and it's not because of the Rhaegar/Lyanna "kidnapping" (wedding). She's coming from outside into a world that she's been told is her birthright, but all these people who grew up and were educated there know more about the world, and who will help who and most importantly - why. Should birthright matter? She should have stayed in Essos. 

She needs to take their alliances and histories into consideration. Yeah, her father was killed by Jaime, but that was after the mad king burned Brandon and Rickard Stark alive. And word on the street (but not the show) was that Rhaegar was calling for a Great Council and the removal of her father. 

I also don't see how Dany, who lost one of her dragons north of the wall and knows the threat to the 7 kingdoms, can still complain about Cersei Lannister holding her throne. How is she more concerned about that then the coming battle with the Army of the Dead? 

Was she jealous of Sansa and Theon? Jesus, girl, get a grip. They were both survivors of Ramsey Bolton and they grew up together. Though, I guess she wouldn't know that. She just wants people do as she says because she says so, with no interest in them at all. I guess that makes sense if her long-term plan was to "break the wheel" by destroying all of the houses. 

Bran or whatever he is now is weird and creepy and I want to know why no one is talking to him about everything they can.  Or about him. 

I would think Sam (or Tyrion), at least, would have been able to grasp the concept of "the White Walkers raises the dead" and said something like "hey, maybe we shouldn't hide our women and children in the crypts" 

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NakedKnees

Just a thought- and not sure if I need to tag a helpmeet or admin for this-  but should we change the name of this thread to "Game of Thrones (SPOILER ALERT)" or something like that? I'm loving this thread but I don't think the title of it is super accurate.

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Maggie Mae
7 minutes ago, NakedKnees said:

Just a thought- and not sure if I need to tag a helpmeet or admin for this-  but should we change the name of this thread to "Game of Thrones (SPOILER ALERT)" or something like that? I'm loving this thread but I don't think the title of it is super accurate.

At the very least, we're on season 8 now. And I think spoilers should be assumed. 

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VelociRapture

Thoughts (SPOILERS AHEAD!):

Spoiler

I actually really like the slower pace of this season so far. It’s reminding me more of the earlier seasons where things took longer to happen and the focus was more on the characters than the action. I don’t think they had much choice other than to speed things up so drastically last season just because they needed to set the stage for the ending. But yeah, I really enjoyed how big a focus there was on the characters and their various relationships with one another last night. 

I’m starting to think that the way they’re portraying Dany as insecure and irritable might not be entirely because of tyrant foreshadowing. She’s finally back in Westeros, but she has no clue how to act or what to expect and I feel like she’s proven herself to be a better conqueror than leader - I think the writing is more a reflection of her unease over finally being home again while coming to the realization that she’s viewed as a foreigner and that no one trusts or knows her and that taking back the throne is going to be much harder than she might have initially thought. She’s completely out of her element and doesn’t know what to do. 

Highlights:

- Pretty much every scene with Jamie. I think this episode made it very clear that he’s not the person he was during his last visit to Winterfell, that he feels remorse for a lot of things he’s done, and he wants to do what he can to atone for it. I have a feeling he isn’t going to make it out of the show alive, but I’ve really enjoyed watching his character grow and develop and I’m curious to see just what type of ending is in store for him.  

- Gwendoline Christie played that knighting scene to absolute perfection. You could see every single individual emotion Brienne felt as it crossed her face from skepticism to disbelief to absolute joy at finally being recognized for all her effort by someone she clearly loves and respects. That was probably one of the best acted scenes of the entire show for me. 

- The scene between Sansa and Dany was well done too. I like that it shows that Dany is still capable of taking advice from others (so she isn’t fully on her way to being a tyrant) since it’s heavily implied Jorah counseled her on how to talk to Sansa. I like that the two did find some common ground between them, but that Sansa also stood up for Brienne and Tyrion while also calling Dany out for her hypocrisy - she was angry at Tyrion for trusting Cersei and being fooled by her when Dany was fooled by Cersei too. I’m also glad to see that Sansa isn’t just rolling over and giving Dany whatever she wants in regards to the North’s future as well. Sansa worked extremely hard to reclaim her home and I don’t blame her for being skeptical and protective of it now that her family is back where they belong. I am curious about how Dany was going to respond to her before they were interrupted. It looked like she was just about to lose her cool. 

- The scene with Missandei and Greyworm. Not because it was bittersweet (it was because one of them is obviously doomed), but because it subtly addressed the fact that racism and prejudice exists in their world too. I don’t blame them for wanting to escape somewhere where kids don’t look at them like scary monsters.

- Theon being reunited with Sansa and the pair choosing to spend those last few hours eating dinner together. I don’t know why, but it was just kind of touching to see him embraced by a member of the House he once betrayed in that way. He’s absolutely going to die defending Bran (and I loved the part where he offered to do that too) and his redemption arc will be poetically completed, but I really just liked how human those little moments were between them. 

- Arya and Gendry. I wasn’t really sure about their sex scene at first, but that was because I’ve gotten so used to seeing her as a cold and isolated person who purposely rejects getting close to others out of survival. It was weird seeing her reach out for love and connection the way she did, but it also kind of makes sense a bit too - she’s back where she feels safest among her remaining family and friends, so she can finally afford to let her guard down a bit. I guess it’s just nice to see that more human side of her again this season and realize she isn’t simply a robotic little assassin, but a complex human being with needs. 

- That entire sequence of scenes with the characters by the fire. I love how randomly and organically they all came into the room, the various personalities that were at play, and Podrick’s beautiful singing. Tormund’s giant milk story was absolutely hysterical in the most WTF way possible too.

- Gilly and Davos convincing that little girl to protect everyone in the crypts. I don’t know why it struck me as a highlight. Maybe because it showed some genuine compassion and protectiveness over a stranger on both their parts, while also helping her feel like she was still doing something truly important. That’s one of the things I love most about Davos - the fact that he has no trouble connecting with others and he has genuine affection for kids. 

- Lady Lyanna Mormont having no time for a fully grown man telling her what to do and Jorah simply accepting her decision rather than attempting to force her to hide in the crypts. Lyanna is definitely one of my favorite characters on the show (which obviously means nothing good for her since it’s GOT and we can’t have nice things.)

- That brief shot of Sam and Gilly looking at each other as Little Sam sleeps. They’re the only major couple there raising a small child and it just drives home the type of fear the parents there must feel for their children. It was a very quiet moment, but incredibly sad too because there’s a good chance it’s the last time they’ll be together as a family. 

Biggest WTF Moments:

- Jon telling Dany the truth right before the battle starts. Dany needs to keep her head in the game and focus on the battle, not be distracted by the fact that she’s been unknowingly screwing her long lost nephew and he has the better claim to the throne. It was just such a classically stupid Jon Snow move and I wouldn’t really blame Dany at this point if she “accidentally” let him die or offed him herself during the battle. I think he’s shown he’s a bit too stupid to be King or Lord of Winterfell at this point. He’s got too much of that Ned Stark honor that got both Ned and Robb killed. 

- Dany’s reaction to Jon’s news. It’s not shock over finding out she has another living relative or anger that he’s dropping a bomb on her right before a major battle. No, once again the only thing she cares about is what this means for her chances at the throne. I get that this is her life’s ambition and all, but I just find it so utterly selfish and tiring that that’s what she’s focused on in that moment. There are more important things to deal with first - like ensuring the safety of the people she hoped to rule over - before she should be focused on taking the throne. 

My Death Predictions this season:

- Jamie. 

- Theon

- At least one member of the Sam and Gilly family. If they off Little Sam I will riot. I still haven’t gotten over Shireen, Rickon, or Baby Bolton’s deaths and anything happening to Little Sam would probably wreck me emotionally because he’s so little and cute. I could see either of his parents willingly dying to protect him, but I’ll go with Gilly this time. Sam will survive and have Little Sam raised at his family's home as heir to the House. 

- One more Stark family member. I’m not sure who exactly. I could see Arya dying due to her drive for revenge. I could see Jon dying out of pure stupidity the way he was by the Night’s Watch and almost again at the Battle of the Bastards. I could see Sansa being offed by Dany. And I could see Bran dying, though I’m not too sure of the reason. If I had to choose one though... I’m leaning towards Arya. I could see the other three having defined purposes in the post-white walker world, but I’m not sure what role Arya would have. I hope no more Starks die, but they’re major characters and major characters have to be sacrificed at this point to make the stakes more real. 

- I could see Gendry dying if Arya doesn’t. Because, again, no one in Westeros can ever be happy for more than a few minutes. He’s also the last of his father’s line and I could see them wanting to kill off another House completely that way. 

- At least one more member of Dany's Inner circle of advisors. I’m going with Jorah since his redemption story is pretty much complete and his loss (and Greyworm’s) would genuinely devastate Dany at this point. 

- Beric Dondarrion. He’ll die achieving whatever purpose he was brought back for so many times. 

- Possibly Brienne and/or Tormund. I could easily see them killing Podrick instead though - it’d be a crushing blow to Brienne right after she was finally recognized for all her work. They’ve been together for so long and I think it’s clear she’s very fond of and proud of him despite being so tough on him. 

- Cersei. 

- This is just my weird little theory, but either Ghost or Rhaegal. I think it’ll be a symbolic way of showing which side of the family Jon will embrace if he lives. If Ghost dies it’ll indicate he’s embracing the Targaryen in him and he intends to claim the throne. If Rhaegal dies he'll stay true to the Starks and give up his claim, choosing to either be Dany's consort (symbolically uniting South and North) or to keep his identity secret and remain Lord of Winterfell.

- Euron Greyjoy, aka Westerosi Jack Sparrow.

- The Mountain. For real this time. 

Who I Think Has Good Survival Odds:

- Davos. He’s the ultimate survivor despite not having much battle training. I want him to survive because he’s got a lot of common sense and he’d be a genuine asset to whoever winds up ruling.

- Bran. They made it clear he’s the memory of Westeros and I doubt they’re going with the complete annihilation of all living beings ending. Bran - or someone else - will be needed to keep the history of the world safe.

- Sansa. Regardless of what happens she’ll be needed to continue the stability her leadership has provided the North recently, especially as they recover from the destruction of the Night King. Like all her siblings she has a lot of Ned’s honor in her, but she’s also got far more cunning and political saavy than the others do. She’s learned a lot over the years and I think she’ll make it to the end.

- Tyrion. I just have a gut feeling the last Lannister standing will be the one hated and underestimated his entire life. It’d at least make me laugh picturing how Tywin would have reacted at least. I’d kind of love it if Cersei dies giving birth and he ends up raising her child, but that won’t happen because Cersei isn’t that pregnant yet (if at all) and there’s no way that kid wouldn’t be killed as a threat to the next monarch.

- Yara. She’ll be needed to lead the Ironborn and she’d be well suited to it. It would also continue the theme of strong females coming into power that GOT has been cultivating for a few seasons now. 

One Thing I Hope Happens:

- Zombie Ned Stark, simply for the Zombie Ned (Flanders) jokes. Picture this, but with GOT characters:

8039C415-405F-44E4-8120-F76C497D367A.thumb.jpeg.591aa231d0fc05e754421eec4a471dc3.jpeg

 

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HermioneSparrow

The whole bashing Daenerys at this point is getting ridiculous, not saying you guys here though but I've seen way too many hypocritical and mysoginistic crap against Dany that makes me root for her (I'm a sucker for underdogs).

The scene with Sansa was foreshadowing her future reaction to the news, honestly I don't think she will go mad Queen at all. Daenerys is a damn human who's been told her whole life is a lie, that the man she loves is her nephew and on top of that, the real heir to the throne, why does everyone think she should be happy and step aside immediately when all she's done in her life is fighting to regain her family's throne? And suddenly everything is a lie? It must be overwhelming! It was for Jon, who avoided her because he was trying to process everything and no one is bashing him. She certainly showed unity and strength by putting everything aside for the time being, let her process this whole thing, she will come around. Dany won't go crazy, it was hella obvious in this episode, she has grown in many ways. 

If anything I see more ambition in Sansa, she learned from Cersei and LF, and it's clear she wants to take over Winterfell. Which is fine, go for it Sansa, the more women in power, the better.

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VelociRapture
36 minutes ago, HermioneSparrow said:

The whole bashing Daenerys at this point is getting ridiculous, not saying you guys here though but I've seen way too many hypocritical and mysoginistic crap against Dany that makes me root for her (I'm a sucker for underdogs).

The scene with Sansa was foreshadowing her future reaction to the news, honestly I don't think she will go mad Queen at all. Daenerys is a damn human who's been told her whole life is a lie, that the man she loves is her nephew and on top of that, the real heir to the throne, why does everyone think she should be happy and step aside immediately when all she's done in her life is fighting to regain her family's throne? And suddenly everything is a lie? It must be overwhelming! It was for Jon, who avoided her because he was trying to process everything and no one is bashing him. She certainly showed unity and strength by putting everything aside for the time being, let her process this whole thing, she will come around. Dany won't go crazy, it was hella obvious in this episode, she has grown in many ways. 

If anything I see more ambition in Sansa, she learned from Cersei and LF, and it's clear she wants to take over Winterfell. Which is fine, go for it Sansa, the more women in power, the better.

Spoiler

 

People have been bashing Jon though. Pretty much every article or comment I’ve seen has been criticizing him for picking the absolute worst moment possible to drop a massive bomb on Dany. I fully expected him to do something like that because he’s Jon Snow and Jon Snow is kind of a massive idiot, but I still had hoped he wouldn’t go full Jon Snow with so much at stake. To be fair, Sam dropped a huge bomb on Jon and he needed time to come to terms with what it all meant. He might not have been thinking very clearly when he told her because he was in the midst of an extremely stressful situation. But yeah, he definitely hasn’t gotten off free from what I’ve seen. People were legitimately pissed he’d do that. 

With Sansa there’s definitely ambition, but I think most of what we’re seeing is just genuine concern for what remains of her family and her people. The Starks have been through a lot, as have the people of the North. Sansa has been ruling competently and effectively both alongside Jon and in his absence. She has a great deal emotionally invested in the welfare of her House and people and I honestly don’t blame her for how skeptical and wary she is of Dany. She knows next to nothing about her when Dany first shows up with an army and two dragons Sansa didn’t anticipate needing to feed, a legitimate concern considering its winter and Sansa is attempting to plan for their long term survival. There’s also the fact that Jon didn’t bother consulting her or the Northern Lords prior to bending the knee. I think he made the right call at the time, but Northerners are stubborn and extremely untrusting of Southerners. Had he consulted Sansa and gotten her on his side she could have helped him sell the idea of Dany as Queen. She’s better at PR and political reasoning than he is. And there’s also the fact that no one knows how Dany’s relationship with Jon will end up affecting things either. 

As far as Sansa knows, the last time the Starks interacted with the Targaryens two of them wound up brutally murdered (at the hands of Dany's father) and one was kidnapped, raped, and wound up dead as well (at the hands of her brother.) The audience (and now Dany) knows that isn’t what actually happened to Lyanna, but Sansa doesn’t know that and can’t be blamed for what she doesn’t know. There’s a lot of history between their families that’s very likely adding to the tension on both sides. 

As for Dany herself, I really think the writing for her this season and last season is a reflection of how uneasy and uncertain Dany has seemed ever since she landed in Westeros. I think Dany is very aware of the fact that she isn’t at home in the place she long considered home and that has to be pretty unnerving. She’s very much a foreigner, especially in the North, and I think she’s dealing with some level of shock over the fact that taking the throne may not be as simple as she might have originally thought. I think she’s used to be enthusiastically greeted by the masses and it’s been an adjustment that the North has not greeted her warmly. She’s going to have to really work to earn the trust of the people and I’m interested to see if she’ll be able to balance her temper well enough to do that. 

 

 

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Maggie Mae
4 hours ago, HermioneSparrow said:

The scene with Sansa was foreshadowing her future reaction to the news, honestly I don't think she will go mad Queen at all. Daenerys is a damn human who's been told her whole life is a lie, that the man she loves is her nephew and on top of that, the real heir to the throne, why does everyone think she should be happy and step aside immediately when all she's done in her life is fighting to regain her family's throne? And suddenly everything is a lie? It must be overwhelming!

I don't know about that. We've seen time and time again that Daenerys is blinded by her birthright. She wants to "break the wheel" by ... participating in the wheel. She's kind of a metaphor for the US. She thinks she's great and the hero. Readers/viewers think she's awesome. She's invaded city-states, used torture, killed indiscriminately, conquered and left, leaving a giant mess in her wake. While the slaving culture is nothing to be desired, there's an argument that she left these cities in worse shape after conquering and destroying their economy than they were before. Plus the torture. And then she opened the fighting pits. And closed her doors to Astapor refugees. 

I kind of wonder if perhaps this is some sort of point that the author wants to make. We love her. She's tough and pretty and been through hell. But she's kind of the villain here. Her thirst for revenge and power is putting all of Westeros and the world at risk. Just because the white walkers can't swim doesn't mean they can't freeze water and walk to the Iron Islands/Essos. Or walk on the floor of the sea. Or get on a boat.  

Her life is a tragedy, for sure. But she's also not qualified to rule Westeros.  Maybe they need a council - someone from each major house? She doesn't have the history to do it. 

 

4 hours ago, HermioneSparrow said:

It was for Jon, who avoided her because he was trying to process everything and no one is bashing him. She certainly showed unity and strength by putting everything aside for the time being, let her process this whole thing, she will come around. Dany won't go crazy, it was hella obvious in this episode, she has grown in many ways. 

Jon's a bit of dolt at times. We laughed so hard when someone asked "warden of the north, what do you think" and it appeared like he wasn't paying attention at all. Which he probably wasn't. He's also not much of a reader, he's a fighter. Like Robert Baratheon, he's not much for "counting coppers." I don't think he will be a very good ruler of the seven kingdoms either. Nor would any one person from any one house. Maybe Bran. But he's not really a person anymore, is he? 

Just like the office of POTUS - the best person for the office is the least likely to actually want it. 

4 hours ago, HermioneSparrow said:

If anything I see more ambition in Sansa, she learned from Cersei and LF, and it's clear she wants to take over Winterfell. Which is fine, go for it Sansa, the more women in power, the better.

 

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VelociRapture
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Yeah, I have to agree with @Maggie Mae. Dany is a legitimately strong and inspiring character, but she’s also incredibly problematic as well. She sometimes reminds me of the Fundies we discuss here in how rigid she can be in her beliefs and outlook, though Dany usually acts that way because she’s attempting to do good in the world. That rigidness has led to her making some significant mistakes, such as the mess she left behind in Essos and her execution of the Tarlys. I hope she’s learned from both those experiences, but I don’t know if she really has. Like many of the male characters she seems convinced of her own greatness - unlike many of them, she still appears somewhat ready to listen to those who know more about Westeros than she does though. It’ll be interesting to see whether that continues to be the case or if she decides to ignore everyone and do what she wants. That could have devastating results for both her and the people of Westeros if she opts to ignore Tyrion’s advice by using her dragons to take back the throne. 

She and Jon are interesting. I think they both resemble Robert Baratheon in a way - they’re all very effective at killing and winning battles, but they don’t seem as effective at actually ruling once they gain power. Robert left the treasury a disaster, Dany left a mess in Essos, and Sansa is the one who has been providing real stability to the North as Jon gallivanted around Westeros seeking allies. I think the pair of them could possibly rule better together than they would alone because they could balance the other’s weaknesses, but I don’t get the sense that Dany wants to share power at this point. It’ll be very interesting to see how this all plays out.

I did find myself disappointed in her during the Sansa scene. She was doing relatively well at bridging the gap between them, something I think Sansa would like to do as well. I think they’re both aware that they have much more in common than they have differences, the biggest two being the love they share for Jon (well, maybe that’s the love they shared at this point. We’ll have to see what the fallout of Jon’s big mouth is) and the fact that they’re both women who have taken on male jobs in a very patriarchal society (something they now also share with Lyanna Mormont, Yara Greyjoy, and Cersei herself.) I was glad that Dany allowed Sansa to point out her hypocrisy regarding Tyrion and how she allowed her to explain her steadfast belief in Brienne’s opinion, but I found myself disappointed by that tiny fist clenching moment after Sansa pressed her on the North's future. It could be that Dany was just steeling herself to make some sort of peace offering she’d rather not make, but I get the feeling she didn’t prepare for Sansa to press her on the topic. I think she assumed she’d win Sansa over by discussing what they have in common and talking about how much she loves her brother and the topic of the North would just be ignored for a time - and if that’s the case then she seriously underestimated Sansa and her dedication to her job and her family. I feel like that’s a bit unusual for Dany. In the past she’s always seemed more prepared for stuff like that. I have enjoyed seeing two ambitious and politically driven women go head to head and try to find common ground though. I think they’ll eventually come to some sort of compromise because they’re both practical in some ways and I think they’ll realize they need one another to survive. 

I said earlier that I do think part of Dany's writing right now is a reflection of how uneasy she is in Westeros. She doesn’t fit in there the way she did in Essos, mostly because she didn’t grow up in Westeros. Everything she has known up to this point came second hand from Viserys and her advisors, all of whom clearly had their own agendas. She has had a steep learning curve from the second she stepped onto Dragonstone and i think she’s floundering a bit trying to find solid footing. I think her writing also reflects a deep longing for family and home in her that’s only been made worse in seeing Jon amongst his family. She’s never had strong family ties the way he does with Sansa, Arya, and (to an extent because he’s creepy now) Bran. The only bond Dany has ever had like that was with Viserys, but while he knew her her entire life Viserys was also emotionally and physically abusive towards her, attempted to sexually assault her at least once, and sold her into marriage for his own gain. It’s got to be tough for her to realize she’s never had the safety, security, and love the Starks clearly have for one another. I think that’s something she really longs for and that’s one of the biggest motivating factors in her drive for the throne - finally feeling safe in a dangerous world. 

I will say that this entire conversation is why I love Martin’s writing so much. He writes female characters so well because he treats them as the complex and multi-layered human beings that they are rather than as two dimensional stereotypes as so many other authors do. None of them are wholly good or evil. Even Cersei had her redeeming qualities and valid motivations for doing what she had done. The show has moved past the books and there’s no way to tell how things will turn out, but the characters were given their strong foundations by Martin and I think it’s a credit to his writing that the show runners were able to develop these female characters as they have. 

 

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HermioneSparrow

@VelociRapture 

Spoiler

 

I completely agree with you about everything and this is why I come to FJ to have level-headed discussions. I don't think she's fit to rule, and neither is Jon. I do have faith in her, everyone is expecting her to go all mad and I don't think that will be the case, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

At this point Westeros should be a democracy, no one there is fit to rule anything. 

 

 

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VelociRapture
3 hours ago, HermioneSparrow said:

@VelociRapture 

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I completely agree with you about everything and this is why I come to FJ to have level-headed discussions. I don't think she's fit to rule, and neither is Jon. I do have faith in her, everyone is expecting her to go all mad and I don't think that will be the case, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

At this point Westeros should be a democracy, no one there is fit to rule anything. 

 

 

Spoiler

I think a lot of people are saying that for good reason though. The writing for Dany has clearly hinted towards that at times, though they’ve balanced it out by showing she can still be reasonable and listen to the advice of those she trusts. My theory is that they plan to build that tension to a breaking point where Dany ultimately faces a choice between being a true Dragon or going off the deep end like Aerys and Viserys. With the more feminist feel the series has had in recent seasons, I’d say you’re probably right that they’ll likely have her choose reason and compromise over just doing anything to get what she wants. But if they want to make a statement about absolute power corrupting absolutely then the seeds are already planted in some of Dany’s actions for that too. 

And yeah, I don’t really know who is fit to rule at this point. Robert was a crap King, but at least Westeros was pretty consistently at peace during his reign. I feel like both Dany and Jon would constantly be fending off challenges to their reigns and wouldn’t know how to effectively govern - if they managed to hold the throne they each could stand a chance of learning eventually, but I think everyone would suffer for it for a while. I’m convinced that Cersei isn’t making it out of this season alive, but at this point she only really cares about her own survival - so she isn’t fit to rule even if she lives. Sansa? She’s very effective in the North where the people know and respect her and where she’s viewed as one of them. I don’t think she’d be interested in the Iron Throne after everything she’s been through to get back home, but even if she were I think she’d be better as Warden of the North and Lady of Winterfell. Tyrion? He has a brilliant mind and he’s proven himself to be a decent leader, but I don’t think the people would go along with another Lannister monarch - especially one who is a Dwarf since they’re society is pretty horrible to anyone even a little different. Gendry? He’s the last of the Baratheons, but he’s a bastard and that’d rule him out very fast. Even if it didn’t I don’t get the sense he’d be interested - I think he’s genuinely happiest working in the forge and creating things with his hands. Plus he has no experience ruling anything, so that would count against him.

Other than that I honestly can’t think of anyone left who could have a claim. I think I’d like to see the seven kingdoms split up or see the Iron throne ultimately destroyed and a new system of governance that’s fairer to everyone implemented. To get there though I think both Cersei and Dany might need to die. Out of the three leading contenders I think Jon might be the only one really open to the idea of the monarch not having sole power. Cersei definitely wouldn’t go for that. Dany might, but it all depends on how she ultimately chooses to view Jon’s parentage and what Jon intends to do with his claim. 

 

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AliceInFundyland

To me that episode was very much TV plot driven. What would all the major characters be doing the night before the biggest battle ever?

Lots of good scenes though. Including some that indicate almost certain death.

My own favorite was the only one that I believe explained everything - the night King is after Bran. Because he wants the world to forget. That's got to be from the books. All the characters standing there and realizing that made me a bit teary.

Brienne, Jorah, Greyworm die.

Tyrion lives.

I hope we see some serious ass kicking from Lady Lyanna. She is due for a moment.

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Maggie Mae

 

21 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

Brienne, Jorah, Greyworm die.

I think Greyworm will live but Missandri of Naath will die. He will take his people back to Narth and protect her people. Finale. Boom. Jorah was smiling like he's gone, though. However, why cure his greyscale to just kill him off before he does anything of note? 

Brienne surviving the coming battle would be a surprise. 

21 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

Tyrion lives.

Yeah, Tyrion will live. He's going to take down some wights though and be glad that someone is in the crypts. I don't think he'll make it through the series, though. 

21 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

I hope we see some serious ass kicking from Lady Lyanna. She is due for a moment.

I'm afraid Jorah will go down protecting her. She might be fierce and tough and formidable, but she's still a preteen. 

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AliceInFundyland

That's a good point. The one thing Tyrion has not gotten to do is kill anything/anyone. (in battle-I don't think he counts dad ) It's the necessary piece of his character arc. I still think he makes it all the way to the end, or close to it. But he does need to kill something.

Jorah. Poor guy. He's a protector of his dear ladies. He's done.

We have too many knightly types floating around

Sad deaths. No matter what the plot adaptation has been I liked the casting of most everyone.

And, the knights were the loyalest. Gwendolyn Christie has been spectacular.

This battle will be brutal.

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