Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon

[47of74]

Well I’m just glad it’s over so I can cancel HBO for a while now. That’s all I really kept it for.

[clueliss]

I'm canceling my HBO Now - but after Chernobyl finishes (yes they hooked me with that one)

[Maggie Mae]

6 minutes ago, clueliss said:

I'm canceling my HBO Now - but after Chernobyl finishes (yes they hooked me with that one)

I thought about it, but I'm excited for His Dark Materials. I'm curious about the Chernobyl show - is it a miniseries? I don't know how you could drag out this story from history.

I also do like a lot of HBOs other content - Big Love, The Wire, Girls, some of the standups.  Im sure they'll have another hit show soon. 

[clueliss]

Chernobyl is a mini-series.  And so far there is enough material.  Tonight is episode 3.  

[front hugs > duggs]

Totally different from Thrones, but I really like Big Little Lies! Meryl is joining for the second season, and I'm super stoked for that. For anyone keeping their HBO subscription, I believe the first season was only 10 episodes - I recommend for what it's worth

I also wonder what the point was of Jon being a Targaryan, or Aria's ability to wear face (I guess just for Walder Fray? But I thought it would become relevant again this season). Why does Jon have to be sent or kept away once Greyworm heads towards Naath? Just to keep a promise? Considering Jon was a Targaryan, wouldn't he have claim to the throne even if he did kill Dany? 

Is Bran Stark Bran the builder? Was that just an empty theory/rumor? What did the Night King really want? 

I feel like we'd get many  more answers in the books. I haven't read them, but I'm really interested. Though I think I would be crushed if I read 1-5 and never got the end of the books, so I think I'll hold out for now.

[Destiny]

Before you cancel hbo y’all, see if you want to join the Church of John Oliver, a recently canonized saint of FJ.

[NakedKnees]

I feel like HBO was really pushing His Dark Materials and Watchmen to maintain the lit geek viewers now that Game of Thrones is over. I don't have an HBO subscription (been watching with friends or at bars) but those would keep me interested. They're really swooping up some of my favorite pieces .

[VelociRapture]

34 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

Perhaps I was drunk or a toke or two over the line last night, but was that actually GOT or did I get it mixed up with a Lifetime movie?   So tidy and convenient.

  Hide contents

Maybe if Sam had been taken seriously about a true democracy and something radically different was put in place, but it all falls flat for me.  All those years of anticipating major changes in Westeros and we end up with Bran the Weird Tree Boy?  With all the shit he encountered, why would anyone trust his sly little smirk?  Why assume he'll be good?  He's not Brandon Stark anymore, he's the three eyed raven.  But what exactly IS a three eyed raven?  I'm also still confused about the children of the forest and the Night King.  (haven't read the books).  The whole thing reeks of story line convenience.

I feel the same way about the demise of the Night King.   Years of terrifying build up.  And then Arya just sticks him with the pointy end.

Blah.

 

Spoiler

Reading the books wouldn’t help you with the Night King. He was a character created for the show. He’s based very loosely off the legend of the Night’s King that is mentioned in the books, but they’re two different characters and the book version was not existed way back in the day. 

I think they picked Bran because he clearly doesn’t care about “worldly” things the way others do. He doesn’t have the same ambitions and motivations. I think the reasoning is that he’ll be a good King because he won’t be distracted by one upping anyone else or by trying to seize more power than he already has or anything like that. But yeah, that’s kind of a hell of a bet to make. 

They really did a shit job of explaining a lot of things properly. I’m ok with how it ultimately ended though. I think that’s where Martin is heading with the books and he’s having trouble getting there because he wants to do it right, not just finish for the sake of finishing.

Spoiler

I kind of like that Jon got no say in his fate. Homeboy was touted as an epic hero for so long and disappointed me so often in recent seasons that I think it was fitting he had no actual say. I also think it’s fitting he ended the story where he began it as well - at the Wall with Ghost. I do wish they’d have explained why the Night’s Watch is even needed now and who is responsible for manning it now that Sansa is Queen in the North. 

 

[Maggie Mae]

9 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

Totally different from Thrones, but I really like Big Little Lies! Meryl is joining for the second season, and I'm super stoked for that. For anyone keeping their HBO subscription, I believe the first season was only 10 episodes - I recommend for what it's worth

I watched this show when it first came out and it was so good I read the book around episode 5 and then never finished the show ?

9 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

I also wonder what the point was of Jon being a Targaryan, or Aria's ability to wear face (I guess just for Walder Fray? But I thought it would become relevant again this season). Why does Jon have to be sent or kept away once Greyworm heads towards Naath? Just to keep a promise? Considering Jon was a Targaryan, wouldn't he have claim to the throne even if he did kill Dany? 

This is the stuff I just have to forget about while watching the show and think "this isn't about the story, it's about the visuals." Otherwise I'll just be annoyed! 

9 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

I feel like we'd get many  more answers in the books. I haven't read them, but I'm really interested. Though I think I would be crushed if I read 1-5 and never got the end of the books, so I think I'll hold out for now.

I think you'll find the existing books enjoyable but they are very different from the show. I found a lot of people appreciate them more due to the show, as putting faces to names helps keep the long list of characters straight in your head. There are so many characters and storylines it can get confusing, but it's a very rich world that will leave you speculating for hours. And we'll get at least one more book. Apparently The Winds of Winter was almost done but he wasn't happy with it so he's rewriting.  I started a readalong on FJ a million years ago but stopped. Maybe I'll start that again, but make it more simple. Or see if others want to do sort of a book club. 

16 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

Is Bran Stark Bran the builder? Was that just an empty theory/rumor? What did the Night King really want? 

There is no official Night King in the books. The Others are very different. They have a language, they appear to have a purpose, but they are also a sort of hidden enemy. There might be a couple of stories from legend about a "Night's King" but that isn't a present day character just yet. 

[Mela99]

I really wonder how close to GRRM'S ending this will be ...

[Maggie Mae]

4 hours ago, Destiny said:

Before you cancel hbo y’all, see if you want to join the Church of John Oliver, a recently canonized saint of FJ.

I didn't even realize that was on HBO, I always watch him on YouTube. 

[Maggie Mae]

8 minutes ago, Mela99 said:

I really wonder how close to GRRM'S ending this will be ..

Books Spoilers; 

Spoiler

Me too. I don't think it will be that close. There's prophecy, Griff, Tyrion is a completely different character. The only thing I really see happening is Daeny burning down King's Landing and embracing her conquering side. Euron is a completely different character. There are more Tyrells. There are more Sand Snakes and D&D said (creepily) that they changed that plotline to show off the actress who played Ellaria. Bronn and the Hound's character arcs are done in the books. Gilly's arc is very different. Sam's in Oldtown and Oldtown is about to be sacked.

 

There's no plot armor in GRRM's books. 

[clueliss]

And don't forget

Spoiler

D&D totally screwed over all plot lines related to Dorne.  I've also seen noted in video interviews with GRRM that Littlefinger in the series has been made a manipulative villain while Littlefinger in the books is loved by everyone (granted still manipulative) - so there's a difference there as well.  

I think we'll get to the same big high points just not the same way and definitely minus the big bad unexplained motive night king since he's not really in the books.  

 

[VelociRapture]

2 hours ago, clueliss said:

And don't forget

  Hide contents

D&D totally screwed over all plot lines related to Dorne.  I've also seen noted in video interviews with GRRM that Littlefinger in the series has been made a manipulative villain while Littlefinger in the books is loved by everyone (granted still manipulative) - so there's a difference there as well.  

I think we'll get to the same big high points just not the same way and definitely minus the big bad unexplained motive night king since he's not really in the books.  

 

Martin himself said in his latest blog post that the ending will be the same, but different. Most of that is due to characters being alive (or dead) in the books while they were killed off on the show - like Ser Barristan Selmy, for example. There’s also the fact that some characters were written out of the show entirely - such as Jeyne Poole, who’s storyline partly became Sansa’s, or Lady StoneHeart, who’s storyline became Beric Dondarrion’s. 

I think the spirit of the ending in the books will likely be the same or very similar to what we saw this season, but there are bound to be differences. That’s why I’m hoping he is able to finish them at some point, though I get how tough it can be to write considering the scope of the story he wants to tell and the fact that he wants to tell it properly. 

[VelociRapture]

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/game-thrones-emilia-clarke-did-213548160.html

Emilia really did do a beautiful job this season. That last scene especially was very well done by both her and Kit. It’s a shame the writers and producers left her, and the other actors and the crew, kind of flailing the way they did. 

[BernRul]

Martin said the ending is "the same but different" which could mean a lot.

For example, will Dany die at the end? Almost cetainly. Will she be stabbed by Jon? Probably, but maybe not. Will she die as a "Mad Queen" or a complex ruler? Will her death be so black and white as in the show? Will she even die in KL, or will she be killed in the process of fighting the Others? Maybe Jon will kill her--but Dany will willing sacrifice herself to fulfill the Azor Ahai/Nisa Nisa prophecy.

Will Bran become king? Again, almost certainly. But will he be elected by Tyrion? Maybe, but that part seems weird. Will all of the lords vote for him with no other consideration? Probably not. Will Bran be some just king who doesn't want it? Probably not, the "just/perfect" ruler isn't Martin's style. Will Bran in fact be the Three Eyed Raven/ Bloodraven, the old Targaryen bastard who is a villian in the prequel novels, who is controlling Bran? This theory isn't without merit.

So you see what I mean? We don't know the extent of what counts as the same. So many changes to the characters/plot points that I don't think they will even look similar, only on the surface level.

Edited May 21, 2019 by BernRul

[BernRul]

The finale only works by having characters act OOC  and forget already established rules of the world.They tell but don't show.

1. If Dany is so mad and evil, why doesn't she immediately roast Tyrion when he throws down the hand of the king pin. He humiliated her in public. That's what a bloodthirsty tyrant would do, right? She already ordered Grey Worm to execute soldiers without trial, and did the same for Varys one episode ago? Why not Tyrion?

2. Why is Jon searched for weapons before speaking to Tyrion, but not when talking to the Queen? 

3. Tyrion has to explain Dany's character arc because it is not explained in the show. Tell don't show.

4. We're told that Dany, a beloved character up til 8.4, is more evil than Tywin and Cersei to justify having a worse death. 

4. Dany is so paranoid but she doesn't bother with a guard?!

5. Drogon does not immediately kill Jon on the spot is OOC for a dragon bonded to its rider and mother. It isn't because he's a Targaryen either--in Targaryen civil wars, they've killed each other with their dragons. Queen Rhaenyra (whom Dany reminds me of) was fed to her brother's dragon.

6. Grey Worm doesn't kill Jon on the spot. He just killed unnarmed soliders ten minutes ago. He loves Dany ,killed civilians for her, and lost Missandei. He seriously doesn't kill him? Guess he and Tyrion wear the same foolproof plot armor. 

7. Why do the lords of the 7 kingdoms care what the Unsullied want?

8. Why do the Unsullied care what the lords want? I can't get over the fact that we're supposed to believe that Tyrion and Jon (especially Jon) weren't immediately executed.

9. Bran is appointed king partially because he can't have children. Lovely. Now a civil war for succession will happen once he dies.

10. In a feudilistic society, not one single lord objects to a crippled uncharismatic boy with no claim to the throne becoming king? There isn't even one nay? 

11. Why didn't anyone suggest Jon? Varys sent the letters saying he's a Targ, and blood is important in this society--it's why Robert became king (he had Targ blood).

12. Bran immediately gives his sister independence. Um, all the other kingdoms were independent as long as the North. Dorne was independent longest. There's no way the Iron Islands and Dorne don't immediately demand independence at the very least. 

13. No one cares that Sam is openly breaking his maester vows by living with a woman and fathering children? Remember that Jaime was hated because everyone believed taht even if Aerys was evil, it is more evil to betray your vows. 

14. No one would accept lowborn sellsword Bronn as lord of Highgarden. So the Reach is having civil unrest over that, probably open rebellion. Also, Bronn is immoral and only cares about money, so he's definitely bankrupting the realm and stealing gold from the treasury. 

15. The no master of war comment implies that they won't need one. There's at least 3 seperate civil wars going on now (Iron Islands, Dorne, the Reach) but I guess we're just ignoring that. 

16. Tyrion has made nothing but bad decisions as hand the past two seasons. Once again he fails upwards, probably because he's become a Mary Sue for Benioff (Benioff says he identifies with Tyrion the most). Tyiron is so unrecognizeable from his book counterpart that I seriously doubt this will happen in the books. Honestly, I think that Tyrion is 1 dying in the books and 2 egging on Dany's crueler side based on his desire for revenge. But that's my opinion. 

Sorry for the long post. This might feel nitpicky but it's not: it's basic character motivation/development and story structure. The finale only works by disregarding both.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by BernRul

[47of74]

31 minutes ago, BernRul said:

The finale only works by having characters act OOC  and forget already established rules of the world.They tell but don't show.

1. If Dany is so mad and evil, why doesn't she immediately roast Tyrion when he throws down the hand of the king pin. He humiliated her in public. That's what a bloodthirsty tyrant would do, right? She already ordered Grey Worm to execute soldiers without trial, and did the same for Varys one episode ago? Why not Tyrion?

2. Why is Jon searched for weapons before speaking to Tyrion, but not when talking to the Queen? 

3. Tyrion has to explain Dany's character arc because it is not explained in the show. Tell don't show.

4. We're told that Dany, a beloved character up til 8.4, is more evil than Tywin and Cersei to justify having a worse death. 

4. Dany is so paranoid but she doesn't bother with a guard?!

5. Drogon does not immediately kill Jon on the spot is OOC for a dragon bonded to its rider and mother. It isn't because he's a Targaryen either--in Targaryen civil wars, they've killed each other with their dragons. Queen Rhaenyra (whom Dany reminds me of) was fed to her brother's dragon.

6. Grey Worm doesn't kill Jon on the spot. He just killed unnarmed soliders ten minutes ago. He loves Dany ,killed civilians for her, and lost Missandei. He seriously doesn't kill him? Guess he and Tyrion wear the same foolproof plot armor. 

7. Why do the lords of the 7 kingdoms care what the Unsullied want?

8. Why do the Unsullied care what the lords want? I can't get over the fact that we're supposed to believe that Tyrion and Jon (especially Jon) weren't immediately executed.

9. Bran is appointed king partially because he can't have children. Lovely. Now a civil war for succession will happen once he dies.

10. In a feudilistic society, not one single lord objects to a crippled uncharismatic boy with no claim to the throne becoming king? There isn't even one nay? 

11. Why didn't anyone suggest Jon? Varys sent the letters saying he's a Targ, and blood is important in this society--it's why Robert became king (he had Targ blood).

12. Bran immediately gives his sister independence. Um, all the other kingdoms were independent as long as the North. Dorne was independent longest. There's no way the Iron Islands and Dorne don't immediately demand independence at the very least. 

13. No one cares that Sam is openly breaking his maester vows by living with a woman and fathering children? Remember that Jaime was hated because everyone believed taht even if Aerys was evil, it is more evil to betray your vows. 

14. No one would accept lowborn sellsword Bronn as lord of Highgarden. So the Reach is having civil unrest over that, probably open rebellion. Also, Bronn is immoral and only cares about money, so he's definitely bankrupting the realm and stealing gold from the treasury. 

15. The no master of war comment implies that they won't need one. There's at least 3 seperate civil wars going on now (Iron Islands, Dorne, the Reach) but I guess we're just ignoring that. 

16. Tyrion has made nothing but bad decisions as hand the past two seasons. Once again he fails upwards, probably because he's become a Mary Sue for Benioff (Benioff says he identifies with Tyrion the most). Tyiron is so unrecognizeable from his book counterpart that I seriously doubt this will happen in the books. Honestly, I think that Tyrion is 1 dying in the books and 2 egging on Dany's crueler side based on his desire for revenge. But that's my opinion. 

Sorry for the long post. This might feel nitpicky but it's not: it's basic character motivation/development and story structure. The finale only works by disregarding both.

 

 

With point 5 I was wondering for a couple minutes if Drogon was actually going to speak in English to Jon to explain himself and/or tell Jon off.  Drogon looked like he had recognized that Dany had tipped over and Jon had no choice but to do what he had done.

I'm also wondering how Grey Worm and the Unsullied knew that Jon had killed Dany?  If they had the pair under observation the entire time that would have explained things.  Or they weren't watching if he had told Grey Worm what he had done.  If they weren't watching he could have said nothing beyond just saying Dany had suddenly just left on Drogon.

As for points 7 and 8 I think it was because neither side really wanted to keep fighting and knew that if Jon was harmed they'd have a fight to the death.  Point 11 probably would have provoked the unsullied into a fight.

Point 15 - the Iron Island wars were over at this point with Yara having retaken the islands themselves, Euron's fleet smashed, and Euron himself dead.

What I'd  kind of like to see is a Game of Thrones sequel with a modern setting to see the long term consequences of all this and how it affected the development of their world.

[BernRul]

21 minutes ago, 47of74 said:

With point 5 I was wondering for a couple minutes if Drogon was actually going to speak in English to Jon to explain himself and/or tell Jon off.  Drogon looked like he had recognized that Dany had tipped over and Jon had no choice but to do what he had done.

I'm also wondering how Grey Worm and the Unsullied knew that Jon had killed Dany?  If they had the pair under observation the entire time that would have explained things.  Or they weren't watching if he had told Grey Worm what he had done.  If they weren't watching he could have said nothing beyond just saying Dany had suddenly just left on Drogon.

As for points 7 and 8 I think it was because neither side really wanted to keep fighting and knew that if Jon was harmed they'd have a fight to the death.  Point 11 probably would have provoked the unsullied into a fight.

Point 15 - the Iron Island wars were over at this point with Yara having retaken the islands themselves, Euron's fleet smashed, and Euron himself dead.

What I'd  kind of like to see is a Game of Thrones sequel with a modern setting to see the long term consequences of all this and how it affected the development of their world.

Drogon's an animal, he can't recognize that. That's been confirmed that dragons are no more intelligent than animals. 

Apparently Jon told Grey Worm. Doesn't make sense to me, but they've written Jon as being stupidly honorable. 

Why do the Unsullied matter to the lords of Westeros? They're a foreign invading army, especially without Dany. There's no reason for them not to just do things their own way. Once the Unsullied leave they can do what they want. 

Yara/Asha specifically pledged fealty to Dany for independence. She absolutely wants to be independent, like all Iron Islanders at that point. Just like Dorne only joined the realm via marriage through the Targaryens. Without the Targs there's no reason to stay. 

[VelociRapture]

12 hours ago, BernRul said:

The finale only works by having characters act OOC  and forget already established rules of the world.They tell but don't show.

1. If Dany is so mad and evil, why doesn't she immediately roast Tyrion when he throws down the hand of the king pin. He humiliated her in public. That's what a bloodthirsty tyrant would do, right? She already ordered Grey Worm to execute soldiers without trial, and did the same for Varys one episode ago? Why not Tyrion?

2. Why is Jon searched for weapons before speaking to Tyrion, but not when talking to the Queen? 

3. Tyrion has to explain Dany's character arc because it is not explained in the show. Tell don't show.

4. We're told that Dany, a beloved character up til 8.4, is more evil than Tywin and Cersei to justify having a worse death. 

4. Dany is so paranoid but she doesn't bother with a guard?!

5. Drogon does not immediately kill Jon on the spot is OOC for a dragon bonded to its rider and mother. It isn't because he's a Targaryen either--in Targaryen civil wars, they've killed each other with their dragons. Queen Rhaenyra (whom Dany reminds me of) was fed to her brother's dragon.

6. Grey Worm doesn't kill Jon on the spot. He just killed unnarmed soliders ten minutes ago. He loves Dany ,killed civilians for her, and lost Missandei. He seriously doesn't kill him? Guess he and Tyrion wear the same foolproof plot armor. 

7. Why do the lords of the 7 kingdoms care what the Unsullied want?

8. Why do the Unsullied care what the lords want? I can't get over the fact that we're supposed to believe that Tyrion and Jon (especially Jon) weren't immediately executed.

9. Bran is appointed king partially because he can't have children. Lovely. Now a civil war for succession will happen once he dies.

10. In a feudilistic society, not one single lord objects to a crippled uncharismatic boy with no claim to the throne becoming king? There isn't even one nay? 

11. Why didn't anyone suggest Jon? Varys sent the letters saying he's a Targ, and blood is important in this society--it's why Robert became king (he had Targ blood).

12. Bran immediately gives his sister independence. Um, all the other kingdoms were independent as long as the North. Dorne was independent longest. There's no way the Iron Islands and Dorne don't immediately demand independence at the very least. 

13. No one cares that Sam is openly breaking his maester vows by living with a woman and fathering children? Remember that Jaime was hated because everyone believed taht even if Aerys was evil, it is more evil to betray your vows. 

14. No one would accept lowborn sellsword Bronn as lord of Highgarden. So the Reach is having civil unrest over that, probably open rebellion. Also, Bronn is immoral and only cares about money, so he's definitely bankrupting the realm and stealing gold from the treasury. 

15. The no master of war comment implies that they won't need one. There's at least 3 seperate civil wars going on now (Iron Islands, Dorne, the Reach) but I guess we're just ignoring that. 

16. Tyrion has made nothing but bad decisions as hand the past two seasons. Once again he fails upwards, probably because he's become a Mary Sue for Benioff (Benioff says he identifies with Tyrion the most). Tyiron is so unrecognizeable from his book counterpart that I seriously doubt this will happen in the books. Honestly, I think that Tyrion is 1 dying in the books and 2 egging on Dany's crueler side based on his desire for revenge. But that's my opinion. 

Sorry for the long post. This might feel nitpicky but it's not: it's basic character motivation/development and story structure. The finale only works by disregarding both.

 

 

These are great questions. I actually thought a few of these myself since watching the finale. Here are some responses I’ve come up with:

1. This bothered me. I actually mentioned it to my husband. My only explanation is they needed Tyrion alive, while they no longer needed Varys, which is kind of a crappy reason. I think Martin would have offed him immediately under those circumstances or he would have had Tyrion resign in a way that allowed Dany to imprison him instead so he could stick with character development consistency. But I also don’t think Tyrion would have resigned in the books either. His character is very different between the show and the books. 

2. I don’t think she was being guarded by anyone other than Drogon. I’m guessing they didn’t feel it was necessary because he’s a dragon and can easily neutralize any threat... except, of course, the one threat he didn’t realize was a threat. That’s the only reason I can imagine why he wasn’t searched before speaking to her. 

3. Yep! This is basic Storytelling 101 and a clear example of why so many people have issues with the show lately. I don’t mind if Tyrion has to spell it out a bit for Jon, who is a knucklehead, but it shouldn’t have needed to be so blatant. 

4.  I don’t think she was universally beloved. Definitely more beloved than some characters, but she had a history of violence just like the others. The writing absolutely failed to reconcile how quickly characters appeared to flip on her though. The only one I think was done ok is Varys and that’s because he made it very clear early on that he would flat out tell her when she was making a major mistake. I don’t think his opposition cane out of the blue the way it seemed to from other characters. 

5. It was weird. I get it was supposed to be symbolic, but I don’t think it made much sense. He could have torched the Throne and Jon before flying off. 

6. I don’t know who actually arrested Jon because that’s not shown. It’s possible the presence of the Northmen in the city caused Greyworm to think prior to acting, but I don’t know if that’s really consistent with his character at this point. I could completely see Jon turning himself in though because he’s Jon Snow and Jon Snow is an honorable idiot.

7. I think because they don’t want more fighting if it can be avoided. The Unsullied hold the capital as well as two high value prisoners, one of whom is the Lord of Winterfell. They probably wanted to try negotiations prior to having more outright hostilities. It’s also possible that the remaining Lords were divided over Jon’s fate and this was the best compromise they could come up with to keep the peace. That seemed to be the case as Yara was calling for Jon’s head while the Starks clearly wanted him alive. 

8. I’m not sure about this either and I can’t really come up with a solution other than the writers needing to wrap things up unfortunately. 

9. I think the thought process is that the Lords will elect each monarch from now on. I doubt that’s going to go well for long though. Too many egos and conflicting ambitions among the six remaining kingdoms. Sansa was smart to get the North officially the fuck out when she did. 

10. But he’s white and male. Isn’t that enough (she says sarcastically)? But yeah, I do agree with you. So much was made out of Tyrion being physically different that you’d think someone would be a dick about it. 

On a related note, no one objected to Brienne being made Commander of the King’s Guard? I think she deserves it, but she’s a woman and it’s a patriarchal society. Wouldn’t someone have objected to that? 

11. They wanted the Unsullied and Dothraki gone. Rewarding Jon would have caused outright violence. I think that’s why.

12. I’m guessing he didn’t grant it because they didn’t ask, plus the North had already related independence prior to this. Sansa’s announcement and Bran’s acceptance just made it official. But yeah, I don’t get why other kingdoms didn’t declare either, especially the two you pointed out.

13. Maybe the rules have been changed? They’re trying to sell the idea that they’re building a new society (not really buying it to be honest), so maybe that was part of it.

14. Are there enough nobles left to oppose it though? Cersei blew up a lot of them in the Sept and the recent wars likely killed a bunch more. Bronn is definitely going to bankrupt the Crown though, no questions there. He will built the most beautifully brothels you’ve ever seen though, so it’s all good. 

15. I don’t think there are three civil wars though. Those Kingdoms have new rulers now and they didn’t declare independence when they had the chance at that Council. Tyrion also pointed out that they’re looking for someone to fill that position and the Master of Spies position as well - that and access to clean water should take precedence over the brothels (looking at you Bronn.)

16. Agreed completely.

I also want to know how the fuck King’s Landing was looking so good when Jon is released despite the fact that it was supposedly just a few weeks later. Also, what does the Night’s Watch even do now? I’m guessing that Bran, Tyrion, Sansa, and the others realized the Watch wasn’t really needed and that Jon would just head beyond the Wall. He’d still be in exile and they likely think his honor would prevent him from causing trouble, but still. What does the Watch actually do without a threat from the North and with a huge hole in the Wall? And why is Yara so pissy about Dany dying when she couldn’t even be bothered to show up to the battle for King’s Landing in order to fight for her Queen?  

I will say, I’m still getting an unreasonable amount of pleasure over Sansa’s, “Uncle, please sit,” comment and Arya’s resulting smirk of amusement. Hands down one of the most politely savage moments on the show and I loved it. ?

Edited May 22, 2019 by VelociRapture

[TuringMachine]

So here's what I've been able to come up with (/gathered from others) with the whole nights watch thing. 

I'm guessing the pro Jon lords are the ones who fought against the Night King, i.e. the Starks, Robyn and Royce, Davos, Sam (speaking of which, why is he here? Shouldn't his sister be the head of house Tarly?), and Gendry.  So Yara, the Dorne guy and Edmure are anti Jon. I dunno who the other three dudes were (does anyone?) are how the feel.  Basically my thinking is that the ones that didn't fight in the battle maybe weren't aware that the freefolk love Jon and therefore the night's watch isn't really a thing anymore? So the pro Jon camp was kinda tricking the others into thinking it was a punishment, when in reality Jon was being exiled to beyond the wall, something he probably actually wanted.  That would explain Sansa's sadness, castle black is visitable, beyond the wall is less so. I kinda like the idea of Jon replacing Mance. 

A couple of other questions I've thought of: 

1. Why did Brienne leave Sansa? Isn't that breaking her vow to Catelyn?
2. What happened to Howland Reed? Jon said the only people who knew about him were Sam and Bran, but Howland would know too. He was there. Also shouldn't he have shown up to fight along with Meera?
3. Did anyone check that Ellaria was dead? Wasn't she in a cell somewhere?

[VelociRapture]

4 hours ago, TuringMachine said:

So here's what I've been able to come up with (/gathered from others) with the whole nights watch thing. 

I'm guessing the pro Jon lords are the ones who fought against the Night King, i.e. the Starks, Robyn and Royce, Davos, Sam (speaking of which, why is he here? Shouldn't his sister be the head of house Tarly?), and Gendry.  So Yara, the Dorne guy and Edmure are anti Jon. I dunno who the other three dudes were (does anyone?) are how the feel.  Basically my thinking is that the ones that didn't fight in the battle maybe weren't aware that the freefolk love Jon and therefore the night's watch isn't really a thing anymore? So the pro Jon camp was kinda tricking the others into thinking it was a punishment, when in reality Jon was being exiled to beyond the wall, something he probably actually wanted.  That would explain Sansa's sadness, castle black is visitable, beyond the wall is less so. I kinda like the idea of Jon replacing Mance. 

A couple of other questions I've thought of: 

1. Why did Brienne leave Sansa? Isn't that breaking her vow to Catelyn?
2. What happened to Howland Reed? Jon said the only people who knew about him were Sam and Bran, but Howland would know too. He was there. Also shouldn't he have shown up to fight along with Meera?
3. Did anyone check that Ellaria was dead? Wasn't she in a cell somewhere?

I know two of the Lords were from the Vale. I think we saw one of them (the older man) speaking with Sansa at Winterfell this season, but I could be mistaken. The other, younger man is Robbin Arryn - who appears to have pulled a Neville Longbottom since the last time he was seen on the show. 

I would think it’d be ok for Brienne to leave Sansa because Sansa ends the show basically as safe as possible and Brienne is still protecting a Stark child. It’s possible Sansa was completely onboard with Brienne joining the King’s Guard as well - it’s a huge honor she absolutely deserves and Sansa likely feels better knowing her little brother is being protected by her. 

Ellaria is bound to be dead at this point. Last we saw her, she was locked in a cell where she was forced to watch her daughter die an agonizing death without being able to comfort her. If starvation didn’t kill her and she didn’t die as a result of suicide then she’d likely have died in the attack on the Red Keep.

And yes! Why were the Reeds never mentioned or seen again?! There was all this time spent on how Howland was the only person other than Ned to know and suddenly it doesn’t matter? 

[TuringMachine]

7 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I know two of the Lords were from the Vale. I think we saw one of them (the older man) speaking with Sansa at Winterfell this season, but I could be mistaken. The other, younger man is Robbin Arryn - who appears to have pulled a Neville Longbottom since the last time he was seen on the show. 

I recognized Robyn and Royce, but there are 3 actually 4 more men on the panel I don't recognize. Doesn't seem like anyone else knows either. This article has some speculation: https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a27528002/game-of-thrones-council-lords-final-episode/

[clueliss]

I watch a lot of tv with captions on.  They were listed in cc as man 1, man 2, man 3 and man 4.  Not sure if one of those four was the prince of dorne.  (And picking a nit, hello it is dorne and women can inherit the throne).  

[AliceInFundyland]

TV Bronn had a really great Q rating. I saw something specific from George referring to the fact that he didn't particularly like that he was getting so much screen time, since he wasn't so important in the books. (With no disrespect to the actor) But, audiences were loving him and thus he became far more involved.