27 Dresses - I Mean Duggar Threads (Now, with Duggar women lawsuit discussion!)

[moriah]

4 hours ago, Jess said:

The 14th amendment trumps FOAI not saying they win that cause of action but if they win winning the FOAI argument will not matter.

Due process was followed, is going to be the city's argument.  They consulted with a LOT of folks before releasing it.

[Jess]

1 minute ago, moriah said:

Due process was followed, is going to be the city's argument.  They consulted with a LOT of folks before releasing it.

The kind of due process I think your thinking of and the legal kind they are claiming were violated are different things. They are talking about substantive due process. Without getting into to many legal terms there are certain fundamental rights people have and the government can not interfere with them here they are talking about privacy. If the court funds there right to privacy was violated it doesn't matter if they followed FIOA or consulted every lawyer in Arkansas. 

Now I am not saying I think it was I am just saying it's not as clear cut as people here think. The girls do not have the best case ever seen but they don't have the worst either.

[TuringMachine]

So rereading the police report and TBH I can't tell who's saying what. Granted I cant stand reading particularly closely, but still. Do I have worse reading comprehension than most people here?

[HarleyQuinn]

Dwreck, Ben, Austin, and Jeremy believe all the same disgusting things as the Duggars and likely saw the gravy train as a perk. Why would they stand up against the parents/Josh? They'll side with them and probably say the press did worse.

[moriah]

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

"Josh (that fucking prick) touched a victim on X and Y. JB and Michelle (the biggest assholes in Arkansas) stated they found out when Josh (the aforementioned prick) tearfully confessed (because he's a douche who was probably hedging his bets and figured they wouldn't punish him as much if he confessed.)"

Under ATI, he had good reason for that bet.  That's why I think he's the one who jumped up, threw down the book, and called the parents on story time day (thought an older girl saw him) and confessed to then and to the laundry room thing then, too.

In their worldview, that undercut all the girls, his coming forward first. None of them were "blameless victims" after that, because they "didn't cry out" and didn't tell.  Which actually does explain of why Jessa and Jill want to believe they didn't remember anything, that they were only told, etc, even though one fold police in 2006 some fairly detailed information about the groping for just being told.  If they were asleep, if they didn't know, they didn't "fail to cry out".  

And it's even probably why creepy Michelle kept saying the girls didn't know they'd been abused, even though the younger ones were awake.  Since they DO believe a person can "be at fault" for being molested, they had to say why their girls weren't at fault.   They probably didn't know it WAS abuse, but they knew what happened.  And as Jessa herself says, he was "sly" so nobody caught on.  He was "sly" enough to know if he confessed first then the girls would be expected to forgive him.  

And sly enough not to touch the sibling who was oldest, most likely to understand and be believed, and most likely to tell if not JB/M than ask/mention it to her twin -- always believed that's why he never touched Jana but instead targeted three of the victims while they were still in single digits.  

[WhyNotJulie]

On 2017-05-21 at 3:35 PM, Lyle Lanley said:

What it breaks down to is if there was enough identifying information removed or not. That's going to be what it hinges on. I'm not sure how much more they could have blacked out without sending an entire blacked out report to the attorney who requested the records. And by law they were required to send the report once it had been requested. Otherwise the Springdale PD would have faced legal consequences at the time.

It's going to be interesting how it plays out. Trying to find an impartial jury is going to be hellish. I wonder if the Duggars asked for a judge and jury trial so that it would drag on for so long that InTouch and the City of Springdale would just settle for an undisclosed amount?

100%. Well put.

I bet the Duggars' counsel was off like a bat out of hell (so to speak) to have that Jury Notice filed as soon as the claim was served. 

[HarleyQuinn]

I always assumed Jill was the tattle. I never considered Josh calling his own parents after the story thing. That theory makes sense.

[moriah]

26 minutes ago, Jess said:

The kind of due process I think your thinking of and the legal kind they are claiming were violated are different things. They are talking about substantive due process. Without getting into to many legal terms there are certain fundamental rights people have and the government can not interfere with them here they are talking about privacy. If the court funds there right to privacy was violated it doesn't matter if they followed FIOA or consulted every lawyer in Arkansas. 

Now I am not saying I think it was I am just saying it's not as clear cut as people here think. The girls do not have the best case ever seen but they don't have the worst either.

I'm happy to go into legalese with you.  As a matter of fact, I was considering re-activating my PACER account to keep archives of the trial.  Do you already have an open account?  

If you're saying they're arguing the law isn't sufficient or at odds with rights even though things were done by the book,  that may fail when it becomes obvious that nothing identifying the fifth victim has ever been confirmed on any forum, and FJ probably is the anti-fan site with the most ethics insofar as trying to limit speculation about minor victims of crimes.  And if we're named in the lawsuit as the arbitrator of whether the redaction was sufficient, which they seemed to suggest by using the fact people here were able to speculate accurately to support their claim.... well, the same redactions were made for the fifth victim and her father, minus the address.  

As far as the address not being redacted, it's because the people making the FOIA request knew the address and used it as part of their requests -- several were made in reference to any police calls to that address, hence why the 911 tape ended up being released when DHS needed an escort onto the compound on the 27th.

If those redactions were sufficient to avoid disclosure of the other victim, then instead of asking for the same fairness of law everyone gets, they're suggesting they should have special privileges under the 14th Amendment because they are public figures.

And maybe it is insufficient.  If so, however, it's because the law allows people to drag minor children on TV for profit and to "minister" when they couldn't sign a legal contract, to become public figures in the first place.  A person on the "Family Research Council" doing, erm... well, I just squicked myself out.. would still be news and Josh's police report would have been fair game for a FOIA request even without the show.  But without the show, there wouldn't have been information online about the Duggars for people here to put things together.

[moriah]

23 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I always assumed Jill was the tattle. I never considered Josh calling his own parents after the story thing. That theory makes sense.

It's what the Duggars themselves have always said, that each time he confessed, that they were "lucky he still had a soft heart".   Jessa was far more accurate in her assessment as him being "sly".   It's unbelievable but in their indoctrinated cult bubble, is what people are supposed to do when they are guilty of "moral failings", and is part of how Gothard built the cult to function.  IBLP is so fubared it makes me sick, but it's no wonder given Gothard's own proclivities.  

[VelociRapture]

Interview Five - Fifth Victim Parent (P. 24)

Officer calls on phone requesting an interview with victim. Parent says they'll ask victim if they want to. States they would have taken care of it at the time if they thought it was a problem. States that victim is REDACTED and can make the choice to speak themself. 

States all is good between the families and everything is taken care of. Don't want to make it into a bigger deal. Officer gives parent her contact information and ends call.

Interview Six - Witness Statement One (P. 25-26)

Duggar Child. States Grandpa Ruark lives with them. This child (who we now know is Jana) states they like the kitchen, trying new recipes, and is working on her GED. She is in charge of making dinner. States if you can get along with your siblings, you can get along with anyone.

States she doesn't know what happened, but that it happened to REDACTED. States she wasn't really told anything, but Josh did something to someone. She was out eating with her parents and grandpa - all the kids from REDACTED up were apparently there. They received a call asking they return home because Josh did something - this was the storytime assault. Said person on phone stated Josh needed forgiveness (may have been Josh calling.) States she thinks REDACTED was sitting on Josh's lap and he touched her inappropriately.

States Josh later told the family he did something wrong. He then spoke with REDACTED NAMES, told them what he did, and asked for forgiveness. Josh was sent away for three months where he worked and read scripture. States that due to this incident REDACTED was called off.

States their dad took Josh to a State Trooper to confess what he did. Says Josh has been good since coming home and the family has drawn closer to God.

When asked if she's ever been touched inappropriately, she says no. States the only person she is concerned about is a REDACTED. States the person makes the REDACTED uncomfortable. States the person has put their hand on REDACTED hip in the past. End interview.

Interview Seven - Witness Statement Two (P. 26-27)

States they enjoy school and doesn't have a least favorite subject. Enjoys building things and working on cars. States they do not have their license when asked - meaning this is likely an interview with JD, since the other non-Josh kids old enough for a license have already been interviewed. Says they like training dogs, the family had one dog (named in they interviews as Jazmine), and this witness trained her.

States his parents told him that Josh touched REDACTED inappropriately, but Josh didn't discuss it with him. States there were two family meetings. At the first, they were told Josh had touched REDACTED. A year later, there was another meeting where they were told Josh touched REDACTED. States Josh went away for three months and spoke with State Trooper. Says Josh as been good since being home.

States that Grandma or a sister babysits them. Witness also states they sometimes babysit a short period of time. States Josh babysits with another family member. States Josh went to a Christian treatment center in Little Rock. Witness says that their father knows the guy in charge and Josh helped remodel the building. Witness refused to name which elders their father spoke to about the abuse. States the Officer will have to ask their father. End of interview.

Interview Eight - Witness Three (P. 28-29)

Witness states they like playing baseball with friends in the yard. States they like when their parents scratch their back and hugs are ok. Says they like kisses from mom and dad, but don't like high fives. States it's not ok to be touched on the "pee pee holder."

States sometimes they're spanked on the bottom. Says they use a rod, all the kids are spanked, and no bruises are left. States they aren't sure what's going on and parents haven't asked about if they've been touched inappropriately. End interview.

Interview Nine - Michelle (P. 29)

Officer made contact with Michelle on December 12th and handed her their contact information. Requested that REDACTED (likely Josh) be brought in for an interview. Michelle states they'd bring the person in on Wednesday December 13, 2006.

Officer asks about the training center Josh went to. Michelle states it wasn't really a training center. She confirms the person Josh spoke with there isn't a certified counselor. States he's a guy in Little Rock they know who is remodeling a building and he was more of a mentor figure. End interview.

Interview Ten - Victim Five (P. 30-31)

Victim states they know they are there because of what Josh did four years ago. States he apologized to them and it all came out because of a letter.

States it happened while they were asleep. Three and a half to four years ago, victim's parents received call from JB and Michelle saying they needed to talk. Later, Josh and his parents came and apologized. Josh said it only happened once. Victim says it happened in the Duggar's living room - they remember sleeping over, but not the assault. Josh told the victim where he touched them and victim has not been around Josh since the assault.

Josh called her while in Little Rock to apologize and ask for forgiveness. End interview.

Phone Call - Detective Hignite and Private Attorney Joel Huggins

Hignite receives call. Huggins states he has been contacted by JB about representing Josh. Huggins not sure he will, but requested to reschedule the interview for Thursday. Hignite agrees. Call ended.

Phone Call Two - Detective Hignite and Investigator Taylor (P. 32)

Taylor informs Hignite who wrote the letter that sparked the investigation. She spoke with REDACTED who said REDACTED wrote the letter. REDACTED was supposed to REDACTED with until the allegations. Letter was placed in a book and loaned to REDACTED from Elm Springs or Cave Springs. This person did not know REDACTED first names, but allegedly have the letter.

Taylor told him REDACTED sent the email to Oprah and us REDACTED. 

[moriah]

Thank you for going through all that squick for us.   Do you need a kitten video now?  I sadly can't give you a stiff drink over the Net.

[Jess]

1 hour ago, moriah said:

 

If you're saying they're arguing the law isn't sufficient or at odds with rights even though things were done by the book,  that may fail when it becomes obvious that nothing identifying the fifth victim has ever been...

There are several causes of action the FOIA law is one there are six others. One of there causes of action is based on the fourteenth amendment which is the one we are dealing with here. What they are arguing is that their substantive due process was violated specifically the right to privacy. Government whether city, county, state or federal can't violate your constitutional rights and then claim the law allowed it and we were just following the law, the constution wins every time in these cases. If they succeed in showing their fourteenth amendment rights were violated (and yes it's an if) then FOIA law doesn't matter. So, when looking at the fourteenth amendment claim FOIA doesn't matter. 

The fifth victim isn't a party to this case the fact the redactions protected her identity probably won't even be admissible at trial it's legally irrelevant. What is relevant is if their right privacy extends to preventing the release of the documents to in touch in the form they were released in. 

Its important to remember in order to win they only need to win one cause of action not all seven. All the causes of action are different some are related and some are not.

[front hugs > duggs]

Question- the specific dates mentioned in the interviews with the victims - were those added by the interviewer during note taking knowing when it happened ? I hope that question makes sense. It just sounds SO rehearsed - all liking broomball and English and hating math. Then on top of that knowing the exact date of the assault without even remembering the assault ? Maybe a degreed law professional can help!

[Italiangirl]

Why they love so much the 3 monts time ( 3 months away for Josh, 3 months of engagement, ecc)? And how they think that going always to do fisical work could help Josh?  Is not that He was a very active guy who needs to always have something to do or he become too full of energy. I really don't understand how their mind work. And now i need to go to trow up and i think i will use some Brian bleach to erase josh from my mind 

[SilverBeach]

The lawsuit should also include JB/Boobchelle as defendants if the logic was consistent. This whole thing is just more mess. 

[moriah]

39 minutes ago, Jess said:

The fifth victim isn't a party to this case the fact the redactions protected her identity probably won't even be admissible at trial it's legally irrelevant. 

Maybe so, maybe not. The defendants responsible for the redactions, the City, have the right to develop a defense.  If they wish to assert their redactions were the same as with any family and without them being public figures, would have been sufficient to protect an identity.... that may be something they bring up.

Overall, I just think it's sad that this ever had to happen, and people other than the city and media are a LOT more responsible for the trauma that they experienced,.  But at this point... I don't know.  I know from the origins of FJ we hoped that at least she would break free.  But I don't see this lawsuit helping them break free, or even just healing within the cult.  I see it as proof instead they are still blaming the only people it's safe to blame in their belief system, even though others failed them so many ways that made the final 2015 disclosure even possible.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, moriah said:

Thank you for going through all that squick for us.   Do you need a kitten video now?  I sadly can't give you a stiff drink over the Net.

Lol!

I actually could use one. Between the reports and the news coverage about the attack in Manchester... I held my baby for close to an hour when I should have been sleeping. I won't give details, but new mom hormones are tough and it was a bit of a rough night. I needed those snuggles bad.

@front hugs > duggsThe one specific date - March 30, 2003 - was remembered because Josh was immediately sent away. I don't find it too tough to believe they may have remembered that date easily enough.

[SilverBeach]

I have responded to FOIA inquiries (I'm a Fed). There is an entire department that manages these and reviews for legal compliance. They are not responded to willy-nilly and we could not judge whether we thought the request was moral or not. FOIA is LAW. I read all relevant documents when the scandal burst in 2015. It was stated that legal review had been done, and the rationale for the redaction methodology was given. There is little likelihood of finding that the FOIA was wrong unless there was procedural error. Just thinking that something was wrong doesn't make it so.

BTW, those police reports were so heavily redacted that I could hardly make sense of the damn things. I had to read them several times.

[moriah]

21 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I actually could use one. Between the reports and the news coverage about the attack in Manchester... I held my baby for close to an hour when I should have been sleeping. I won't give details, but new mom hormones are tough and it was a bit of a rough night. I needed those snuggles bad.

Baby snuggles are the best!

 

Hopefully this makes everyone who has to sleep after reading the reports have some minor brain bleach before REM cycles.

[FeministShrew]

Reading all this has made me realize just how shitty my mom and her reaction was.

When my older cousin was caught molesting me, I was punished, too, even though I was very young (4, I think? he's 8 years older).  My mom & grandma actually kept it from my dad & grandpa because they were afraid of what they would do to him. I don't remember the punishment (I've blocked out a good bit of that time), but I'm sure it was spanking with a switch (preferred method of the women in the family; the men used belts), and to this day I don't know if they told his mom, my dad's sister. My mom & grandma blamed it on the fact that his parents were divorced. I spent most of my life thinking I was just as much at fault, that I was a dirty little girl, which is what they told me at the time. 
I didn't find out until I was an adult that he had molested my sister, who was his age, and his brother, a year younger than me. Nothing was ever done about it. Of course, now I think that he was probably acting out because he'd been molested, too. 
The whole thing seriously fucked up my entire life.

[HarleyQuinn]

6 minutes ago, FeministShrew said:

My mom & grandma blamed it on the fact that his parents were divorced. 

I'm sorry this happened to you. My abuse also came from a cousin, though I was so young and didnt find out the truth until years later. His mother's excuse was "oh, he saw a dirty magazine. " it enrages me now even thinking about it. And it makes me even more angry seeing the Duggars excuse, excuse, excuse like they do.

[front hugs > duggs]

Sorry to derail the lawsuit topic but read this:

 

Mom and Dad Dugggar?!? What other Mom and Dads do they have? 

Don't answer that......

[Shadoewolf]

@VelociRapture here's some baby kitten snuggles. You're a champ for doing all that!

These are my current rescues (there are 4),  almost 2 weeks old and milk-drunk asleep

[mydoggoskeeper]

Wow, Jackson looks so much like Josie in that pic!

[Cleopatra7]

Man, Jackson is already thirteen? That makes me feel old. It also makes me feel weird knowing that Jackson was literally born and grew up on camera, though for different reasons. A real life Truman Show.