27 Dresses - I Mean Duggar Threads (Now, with Duggar women lawsuit discussion!)

[subsaharanafrica]

 

46 minutes ago, closetcagebaby said:

Are you talking about the 7 points mentioned earlier in the thread or something else? I'm curious what their other claims are.

They're on the last several pages of the complaint under the headings of First Cause of Action, Second Cause of Action, Etc. I can't remember off the top of my head but AFAIR a couple are based on différends Arkansas statutes, a couple are common law torts, and one is a Due Process claim under the Arkansas constitution. 

[OldFadedStar]

To the topic of Jill and Jessa...

Is it possible that they were still deeply ingrained in the family koolaid at the point Joshgate 1/Interviews happened? If they were told all their lives that it was just mild inappropriate touching... that is honestly what they probably believed it was at the time. We know that the Seewalds were angry after the scandal. Could Ben have helped Jessa realized what really happened to her? Could that have happened with Derrick and Jill as well? 

It's also been pretty obvious that Jeremy is not a big fan of JB. 

Is it possible that now the girls realized that they were sexually assaulted and not just inappropriately touched? We don't know if any of the four girls have any type of relationship with Josh and if they do what that dynamic is. 

I was just thinking that this could be why it came two years later. It may have taken Jill and Jessa time to process with their husbands. 

[JenniferJuniper]

10 minutes ago, Jess said:

They can and must be separated for the legal case. That Josh molested children is newsworthy he would never have a case. The issue is if it was newsworthy that the victims were his sisters. I am not saying it wasn't. What I am saying is that there is a legal argument that they didn't need to post the police reports they could have ran story saying they had obtained documents showing Josh had molested children etc and used excerpts that didn't identify the victims. They choose to release the reports which made it clear it was his sisters who were victims. There is certainly an argument that it was newsworthy who the victims were, but there is also a good argument that it wasn't. Ultimately, either a judge will decide it on motion or more likely a jury will decide and the jury instructions will almost certaintly call on the jury to make that distinction. 

I can make arguments on both sides here, but in the end, you are right, there are no clear answer and ultimately a judge or jury will have to make that determination.  

 

4 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

This, for me, is a what came first the chicken or the egg situation. They did lose their show because of the scandal but they wouldn't have been on TV if their parents hadn't pimped them out. If they weren't on TV, then it wouldn't be news. I still think they are blaming the wrong people but JB isn't going to sue himself. 

I don't think it will matter much from a lost income damages perspective that they were originally pimped out by their parents.  If a jury gets to the damages phase, they'll have to be convinced via documentation at 1) The show was cancelled because of the  news.  (Probably was). 2) Whether the individual plaintiffs lost earnings because of the cancellation (Questionable, if all the money was in reality routed to Boob and he was doling it out as he saw fit.  Also, Counting On may have actually landed more money in their pockets as JB, Michelle and most of the other kids in the family weren't featured. It was mostly just the victims and their families.  So arguably they may have actually gained financially.)

Bit sticky for Jim Bob as this could reveal how he's been running this operation.

[Buzzard]

I cant believe I go away for a week and all this goes down!

I read the complaint, and my opinion is that it is the usual Duggar drama.  They're going after the city, just like they said they would, immediately before the statute of limitations runs.  I find it amazingly awesome that this family that hid behind the SOL to protect Joshly is dancing on the line of it again for their own financial gain.  These people are so gross.

Predictions:  The girls show up on faux news again railing against the "fake news" and how intouch had to make a story out of their pain because ebil liberalz... persecuted christians.  There is absolutely no case against intouch.  They obtained the reports through a FOIA request, once it was in their hands they, as journalists (and I use that term loosely), get to publish it.  The information contained in the reports is true, was obtained legally, and was not protected by a court order.  Even AFTER the court order was issued, I do not recall Intouch being a party to that order or under the jurisdiction of that court in any way.  A judge cant order anyone who isnt before them to do/not do something.  The case against Intouch is garbage.

The cause of action against the city will wind its way through the courts and they'll hope for a settlement. Ultimately I dont see the Duggars winning, but they'll make themselves out to be martyrs once again.  I'm wondering if the TLC gravy train is ending, because if it wasnt I cant see them taking this path and reminding the public of the molestation again.

[Chickenbutt]

Derrick and Ben termed the consequences of Josh Duggar’s scandals “difficult” and “emotional” on the family.

(From the Inquistr article, bolding mine)

This comment seems to me to point the blame right where it belongs. On Josh. The scandals are his, not the City's or In Touch's. But for Josh, none of this would have happened and no one would be having "difficult and emotional" times.

 

[VelociRapture]

@OldFadedStarIts certainly possible it took a while for them to emotionally cope. I suggested something similar in an earlier post. I'm not sure how much the husband's or in-laws may have helped though. I certainly hope these women have people in their lives telling them that they aren't to blame and what happened was wrong in many ways.

I think a variety of factors likely played into the lawsuit happening now - having to emotionally process it all, the marriage status of the victims involved, Joy being a minor when the news first broke, needing time to collect evidence or information...

@JessI agree, but would anyone really have believed them if they didn't release the documents?  Even if they stated they had the documents to prove it?

I mean, it would have prevented the public from knowing who the victims might be - other than people who know just how limited Josh's opportunities would have been. If the Duggars had then tried saying the claims were false they could have released the documents as proof... but that's also pretty iffy ethics wise considering the material involved and the fact that it almost feels like blackmail in a way.

I would love if a lawyer practicing in Arkansas could give their professional opinion. To be honest, I feel like if this was as open a secret as it seems to have been in their area... I mean, it was going to come out at some point unfortunately. Their parents and Josh guaranteed that by being such assholes.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

@OldFadedStarOr maybe they were waiting for Joy?  Total  wakadoodal conspiracy theory (wishful thinking) they have been waiting for Joy to get married, and went behind Jim Boobs back and filed suit in hopes of getting money for themselves to get away from Boob?  I know I know total fan fiction stuff here but I can still dream. 

[Buzzard]

39 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

@JessI agree, but would anyone really have believed them if they didn't release the documents?  Even if they stated they had the documents to prove it?

I mean, it would have prevented the public from knowing who the victims might be - other than people who know just how limited Josh's opportunities would have been. If the Duggars had then tried saying the claims were false they could have released the documents as proof... but that's also pretty iffy ethics wise considering the material involved and the fact that it almost feels like blackmail in a way.

The day it all went down I think I posted that I didnt believe anything UNTIL they released the documents because they would have gotten them via FOIA.  The media's job isnt to parse public records.  They obtained it validly, its a government document, and if they hadnt published them someone else would have.  Sure, they could have redacted them further, but I dont think that they legally needed to do that. I agree that contacting the Duggars and telling them in advance would be ethically schetchy, but didnt we think that they had a heads up back then?  I cant remember why, but they did something that made us think they had a days or two notice.

I think of this a lot like an indictment.  Where a child is a victim of a sex offense their name is still in the indictment, a public record.  It isnt sealed or closed or hidden in any way.  Its a public record.  I also dont buy for a second that they were promised the records would be sealed.  If that were true, boob would have followed up.  He's Saavy enough to know how to get things sealed.

6 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

@OldFadedStarOr maybe they were waiting for Joy?  Total  wakadoodal conspiracy theory (wishful thinking) they have been waiting for Joy to get married, and went behind Jim Boobs back and filed suit in hopes of getting money for themselves to get away from Boob?  I know I know total fan fiction stuff here but I can still dream. 

They filed 2 days before the statute of limitations expired.  I think that was their sole reason for filing when they did.

[moriah]

2 hours ago, Jess said:

They can and must be separated for the legal case. That Josh molested children is newsworthy he would never have a case. The issue is if it was newsworthy that the victims were his sisters. I am not saying it wasn't. What I am saying is that there is a legal argument that they didn't need to post the police reports they could have ran story saying they had obtained documents showing Josh had molested children etc and used excerpts that didn't identify the victims. They choose to release the reports which made it clear it was his sisters who were victims. There is certainly an argument that it was newsworthy who the victims were, but there is also a good argument that it wasn't. Ultimately, either a judge will decide it on motion or more likely a jury will decide and the jury instructions will almost certaintly call on the jury to make that distinction. 

There's also a legal argument that had InTouch left the original article as it stood without providing evidence, no one would have believed it.  And that Judge Zimmerman never ordered InTouch to remove their reporting, and the police reports were legally obtained.  They had the right and a journalistic responsibility to provide their source material.

Another argument is that redactions were sufficient to make the non-family victim's identity remain unknown, even though her father was interviewed and that was in the report too.  There's no way InTouch could have reported, as they stuck with in the original article, simply that Josh was a sexual abuser and it was covered up, without eventually showing their sources, and therefore no way to avoid revealing four victims were family members.  

Whose fault is it that the date of birth of all of the Duggar children are on Wikipedia?  Aka, a comparative fault defense and request to joinder other parties responsible for their identities being able to be disclosed.  And we know that's JB and Michelle, if not Josh himself or Jim Holt for failing to follow through on mandated reporting proceedings, which would have made the police report a juvenile record automatically expunged before the 2015 FOIA.

Smuggar didn't resign on the 19th, but on the 21st, only after InTouch added their proof in the form of the police reports, which adds to their claim of journalistic necessity to provide the reports in order to exercise their First Amendment rights to investigate and inform the public that an adult public figure on the "Family Research Council" committed sexual crimes against children himself.

It's sad that the girls have suffered collateral damage.  But that's going to be InTouch's defense -- the damage suffered was not intentional, but unavoidable because of the actions of Josh, Jim Bob, and Michelle.

[flycat]

I wonder if becoming parents has impacted the timing as well. I think as parents they might now have an even more acute sense of how wrong Josh and their parents' actions truly were.  I know that I have a much more acute sense of how some things that happened when i was a kid were a huge deal that I couldn't see before I was a parent.

[FJismyheadship]

So.... they are upset about being identified....

As was previously stated, Jill and Jessa outed themselves, but something that hasn't been mentioned is that Jessa outed Jinger on Megyn Kelly as well...

 

[SassyPants]

Carm_88...Yep, because it's only about money.

[onekidanddone]

7 minutes ago, FJismyheadship said:

So.... they are upset about being identified....

As was previously stated, Jill and Jessa outed themselves, but something that hasn't been mentioned is that Jessa outed Jinger on Megyn Kelly as well...

 

She outed Jinger by name? Very shitty thing to do, and it rips yet another hole in their case.

[Shadoewolf]

@moriah I found and posted those same jury instructions yesterday, great minds think a like! The big one I bloded was #3, "the extent to which (plaintiff) voluntarily placed himself/herself into a position of public notoriety" By being on reality TV they've certainly done that, with the exception of Joy being underage and unable to say no. 

But that's where I could see this all derailing on JB. I imagine the girls testimony would be filled with "but our father said"..."we deferred to our father, etc.

Then comes the question of who had knowledge of the abuse. Didn't Anna publicly state she and her parents were aware of the situation before they got married? Based on Pa Keller's job, would he be a mandated reporter too? And if so, wouldn't he be complicit for not reporting it? Seems to me like everyone knew and just kept it to themselves. 

[Hmmm_idolatry]

10 hours ago, Lurky said:

I didn't understand how the 4 girls could get dames based on loss of earnings, because while 19K&C was cancelled, Counting On is focused on them, rather than their parents - especially the first one being "Jill and Jessa Counting On" - and even if it's a smaller show/fewer episodes, there are fewer people to split the earnings between.

 

I couldn't agree more.  The argument claiming loss of earnings is utter BS, and completely nullified by the fact that they literally got another show after the first one was cancelled.  In addition to that, they've sold photos and interviews to People magazine.  Counting On is still being produced and filmed.  They've lost nothing.  Absolutely nothing.

Yet again, another reason why this case is BS.  The victims outed themselves publicly in the media; the authorities did not out them; InTouch did not out them.  The victims never lost their revenue stream; rather, they were offered a brand new show in the wake of the abuse scandal.  

However, JB and Michelle DID lose their show.  They did lose revenue, and rightly so.  JB doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of successfully suing anybody over this, but in his fat delusional head, he's not at all above throwing the victims out to the wolves in a desperate last bid to bring back his income source.  I doubt it would ever come to this, but if anything, JB owes the city and InTouch an apology.  In a perfect world, he'd have to pay out millions for every body else's pain and suffering that HE, his wife, and his mentally ill son have caused. 

The more I think about this, the more I find myself hoping a judge tears JB a new asshole (so to speak-not literally) for wasting everybody's time.  

[Lyle Lanley]

The Duggars were informed of the FOIA request as soon as it was made per Arkansas law. Going back through the articles (including the WaPo article I posted earlier) it looks like In Touch's attorneys received other documents relating to the Duggars within days of being hired before finding the molestation documents. So the Duggars should have been informed of those as well. Which begs the question why didn't the Duggars themselves find out what was public record/what wasn't public record immediately and then go to court to have the documents and recordings destroyed? It was quite obvious someone was pawing through their history with the City of Springdale and Springdale PD. They knew enough at the time of the interviews to not have Josh interviewed and made sure that Josh had legal representation to avoid being interviewed. Did they sincerely believe the documents were not public record or were they arrogant enough to believe that people would stop at that and not buy the "sin in the camp" rumor?

That and how did TLC not advise them to go through to see what was/wasn't public record when the Duggars became their cash cow? Several people on the internet stated it was public record and anyone could obtain them as far back as 2007. It's just no one did because people outside of Springdale believed "the sin in the camp" was just a malicious rumor. Josh Duggar is a hateful person, Michelle and Jim Bob are awful people but would they really go on national television with a son that molested four of his sisters?

They obviously read the various forums on themselves or have underlings read for them. Someone had to know that people were saying that the documents were available to the public for years. How did they not have the documents destroyed as soon as people were claiming anyone could obtain them?

[nokidsmom]

Well, finally catching up on this lawsuit business.  I am with other posters that JB is most likely behind this and that it's pretty much a cash grab.    Perhaps JB is seeing the writing on the wall re: future income and that he's not going to be able to support a bunch of kids, plus spouses and kids, which is pretty much what he has been doing with the possible exception of Jeremy/Jinger.

Now, I understand that the girls have suffered collateral damage and by now have had some time to process it all. Marriage and parenthood could have aided that process as well, but I still find the timing suspect.   It reminds me of when I worked in insurance claims and the many, many times I saw lawsuits filed just before the SOL for filing expired.   It happened so many times it was predictable.  So I am a bit cynical over the motivations on this.

I actually am a bit concerned for the girls because as others have pointed out, they will find the process to be more emotionally draining than they think.  They are upset over being outed which is understandable but the lawsuit puts the whole business back in the public's eye again.   They may be subjected to some intense questions and I don't think any of them are prepared for that, or can even fathom it.  It also puts their husbands in a position where they will have to hear, perhaps over and over, what happened to their wives.   That certainly won't be healthy and this family is enough of a toxic mess as it is.

ETA:  Filing this lawsuit isn't exactly going to endear the family to their local community so everyone, including the girls, are going to find themselves becoming bigger pariahs then if they just let it go.   

[SassyPants]

Why didn't the Duggars...the Duggars are not proactive people at all. They are last minute, lazy, entitled and reactive. They slug through life and react to issues at the last possible moment; Duggar Time in live and living color.

The only reason I hope those girls gets some green is so they can turn away from this caustic lifestyle and DO BETTER for their own families.

I could not care less if JB and M end up hungry, lonely and living on the streets. They should be in jail for what they did to, and did not do for those kids, and now they are unleashing unskilled and ill-prepared adults into society.

[Lyle Lanley]

1 minute ago, SassyPants said:

Why didn't the Duggars...the Duggars are not proactive people at all. They are last minute, lazy, entitled and reactive. They slug through life and react to issues at the last possible moment; Duggar Time in live and living color.

Yet they knew enough to get Josh legal representation at the time of the interviews with the police and that he was not legally required to be interviewed by Springdale PD.

It's like they are advised on some things and not advised on others. TLC is complicit in this as well mind you. It was their cash cow, they more than likely knew the rumors. Did they not advise the Duggars to make sure no skeletons could be discovered or were the Duggars too arrogant to listen?

[nokidsmom]

2 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

The only reason I hope those girls gets some green is so they can turn away from this caustic lifestyle and DO BETTER for their own families.

That would be great if they could do that but unfortunately even with money in their pockets, they are still seriously enmeshed with their FOO and most of all, enamored of Daddy.  No amount of money is going to break the emotional chains they have with their toxic family.  

I would seriously like to see them find a better life, I really do and if any of them manage it...great.  But after seeing Jill and Jessa's interviews after the molestations came out it hit me how limited these young women really are.   They have some serious challenges before them to break out of that lifestyle, they are too used to it and they have no tools to forge another way.   Pissing off folks in their local community by filing a lawsuit is only going to encourage that martyr complex and stick closer to their family than before.  

5 minutes ago, Lyle Lanley said:

were the Duggars too arrogant to listen?

This.  Per the Kelly interviews, JB and J'chelle said "it was all taken care of" so I guess they thought no nothing to see here, move along.  Both parents seemed totally clueless about the seriousness and how it would be perceived by the public.

[Chickenbutt]

If I am not mistaken, I could very well be wrong, didn't one of the girls say that they never knew anything had happened until JB and Michelle told them? Or am I making that up?

Wonder how the girls (and JB and Michelle) will reconcile that fact (if it happened like that). Kinda hard to sue for something that you don't remember happening.

Now I know this is a lawsuit against the city, In Touch and the police, but unfortunately, to show they are damaged, the girls will have to go through the whole mess over and over again. How do you respond? "Well my mom and dad told me my brother molested me. I have no memory of it."

And the "no big deal, it happens in 2/3 (?) of all families". How do you explain that line of thinking?

[Jess]

Guys I wouldn't put so much stock in the last minute filing indicating anything there could be lots of things we just don't know. They could have gotten lawyers shortly after the incident. Usually the lawyers will write letters and make contact with potential defendants to see if it could be settled being putting it into suit. Not to mention their LA lawyers had to not only find local counsel admitted to practice in Arkansas they had to be admitted in federal court, its an easy but separate process that not all lawyers bother to do lawyers are people and they could have delayed filing to the last minute because of their only lazyiness. 

[moriah]

1 hour ago, Chickenbutt said:

Now I know this is a lawsuit against the city, In Touch and the police, but unfortunately, to show they are damaged, the girls will have to go through the whole mess over and over again. How do you respond? "Well my mom and dad told me my brother molested me. I have no memory of it."

If nothing else, they are claiming "paparazzi" harassment, embarrassment, and the shame that their ATI upbringing undoubtedly made them feel about the whole affair even moreso than in other families.  They're literally told they're at fault if they didn't "cry out" -- and from appearances Josh knew this ATI rule well enough to "confess" first each time.  So not remembering -- oh boy, what if you didn't cry out?  What if you were told you didn't cry out?

Quote

And the "no big deal, it happens in 2/3 (?) of all families". How do you explain that line of thinking?

I'm praying that was somehow a misinterpretation of a comment meant to suggest that having survived sexual abuse or having had it happen in your family doesn't/shouldn't taint the innocent -- and while 47.9% of statistics are male bovine manure (including that one), that it's happened in many families.  Which is true.

But if you haven't read the Recovering Grace series about how these girls have been indoctrinated given they were in ATI from their first memories, it explains a lot of why they can believe.  It's sad.  Even without the money... they've had so much incentive given to staying with the ATI system that challenges to it, like the allegations coming out, are naturally going to make them dig deeper into ATI teaching to figure out what they/their parents did "wrong" and think it'll never happen to them if they just do ATI/IBLP "right".

I see this lawsuit not as any sign of them accepting agency for themselves, but instead a symptom of the fact that within their worldview they can't be angry at Josh or their parents or they're being sinful.  A corrupt liberal government and a tabloid that damaged the reputation of the family and the cause of Christ, however, is a safe target.  And if they stay in the bubble the potential horrors that await them on a witness stand will be reinforced by the pride that can be taken in martyrdom to such awful forces.

I hope I'm wrong, but it's hard to leave a cult when you're born into it, especially if you are a woman, marry, and have babies you're raising into the cult way of life.  Their women aren't allowed to get marketable joh skills, and how many women can support as many babies as they instruct newly married couples in the cult to make even with a real college degree if they decide the cult isn't for them? 

[Kittikatz]

The thing I found interesting about this was the narrative that Jill and Jessa gave during their interview was that they presented events quite differently than what appeared in the police reports. I understand that time morphs memories and there may have been some repression and/or coaching involved, but that they were so arrogant or clueless that they didn't even realise they would have been better served having what they said to fox line up with what was said in the police reports is just appalling. 

I don't have a lot of sympathy for this lawsuit. It smacks of JB's greed and I am very worried that the questioning (esp in deposition) and process is going to be a lot harder on the girls than they imagine. Especially for Jill, who seems to be hanging by a thread at the best of times. I'm betting JB's imagining that inTouch is going to settle out, like Josh is probably trying to do with that DJ whose face he misappropriated. It's a shame they don't seem to realize that suing the government and a major media outlet is on a whole other level.

[HarleyQuinn]

1 hour ago, Chickenbutt said:

If I am not mistaken, I could very well be wrong, didn't one of the girls say that they never knew anything had happened until JB and Michelle told them? Or am I making that up?

 

No, I'm fairly sure Jessa said that in the Megyn interview because she and Jill outed themselves as the ones that slept through it. I think they were told after the fact.