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Wine time!
Maggie Mae

This showed up this week and seems relevant to FJ interests:

 What happens when the church comes for your kids?

It's a bit long, but I thought it was interesting. The polygamist show a few years ago with Bill Paxton did not even being to show the level of control the leaders had in Juniper Short Creek. 

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Howl

Thanks for posting this.  I got my print copy of High Country News a few days ago and read the article yesterday.  I don't think the FLDS will ever completely die out, but it has been seriously impacted in recent years in Short Creek (the name for the twin towns of Hildale and Colorado City on the Utah/Arizona line). 

I was amazed at how close these towns are to a now pretty well known mountain biking area called Gooseberry Mesa and close to Vermillion Cliffs National Monument as well. St. George, Utah is not so far away and is one of the fastest growing areas in Utah, if not the US. As the crow flies (but not as the tourist drives), they are close to Zion National Park.  If you read the article, outsiders are discovering that a canyon in Short Creek is a beautiful place to hike and coming to do just that. 

I suspect that once FLDS people escape or are kicked out and get exposed to outside culture, they are never going back.  The extent to which Warren Jeffs has fractured families (children sent away to be cared for by others, reassigned wives, men excommunicated and unable to communicate with wives/kids) is horrible. 

I'm curious if things are the same in Colorado City, which is actually across the state line in Arizona.  The big changes in Hildale are being done by the state of Utah.  Are there Federal actions affecting both communities?

Edited by Howl

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Wine time!
Maggie Mae
24 minutes ago, Howl said:

I was amazed at how close these towns are to a now pretty well known mountain biking area called Gooseberry Mesa and close to Vermillion Cliffs National Monument as well. St. George, Utah is not so far away and is one of the fastest growing areas in Utah, if not the US. As the crow flies (but not as the tourist drives), they are close to Zion National Park.  If you read the article, outsiders are discovering that a canyon in Short Creek is a beautiful place to hike and coming to do just that. 

I was surprised, as well. We've been looking at taking a trip to ZIon & doing some mountain biking; we've been hesitant to pull the trigger on that trip as it's going to be $$$. 

Warren Jeffs is losing power & it's being seized by other Jeffs family members. I know it's a cult and people are brainwashed from birth, but nothing lasts forever. Morals change with every generation and people see things that are unfair and they remember them and that knowledge is passed down through generations. And as people discover that it's the church that is taking away loved ones, (or liked ones), people will rebel. It's in our nature. 

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Howl

Here's a Short Creek before and after:

Screenshot 2017-05-05 at 9.37.10 PM.png

Screenshot 2017-05-05 at 9.38.33 PM.png

Edited by Howl

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nokidsmom

Sister lives in St. George and sees FLDS all the time in the local Walmart, etc and for a short while there was an FLDS family renting the house next door.  She works across the street from the courthouse where Warren Jeff's 2007 trial took place and was working there when it happened. 

Have passed through Short Creek aka Colorado City / Hildale and it's a beautiful area.  Interesting going through town and noted the lack of normal outside activity (going in and out of stores / gas stations) made it appear like it was deserted which of course we knew it was not.  

ETA:  Zion National Park is gorgeous, have been there several times.  Mr. No's favorite Natl Park of all the parks we have visited and that's a lot.   Spent our 20th anniversary there.  Hiked in the park and stayed in one of the hotels in Springdale, along the banks of the Virgin River. 

Edited by nokidsmom
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Red Jumper
42 minutes ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

I leaned into their table and said "You all got it wrong. It's not lipstick. It's dried blood"

:Yes:

On a serious note: your experience is chilling.

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nokidsmom

@Red Hair, Black Dress wow, that's quite the story.  They were that scared to call the dean or the elders?  Like he / they would be able to do anything. 

We have one from our 20th anniversary dinner at a local restaurant just outside of Zion.  Mr. No, is a beer drinker and likes to try the local brews when we travel.  He asked the waiter on what was available and among other offerings, the waiter mentioned Polygamy Porter from Wasatch Brewery.    He then when on to mention that some of the FLDS menfolk would frequent the restaurant and would react a bit to seeing this on the menu.  He also mentioned that to get around saying the full name of the brew, he would say "and....we have a porter".   I don't think he would have shared this if we were clearly not from the area. 

I guess depending on the person, they will be scared or willing to share.

 

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hilee

Wow not shocking though so sad. 

I did see this house in Hilldale https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Colorado-City-AZ/pmf,pf_pt/125131064_zpid/17531_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/37.009886,-112.923661,36.937201,-113.040905_rect/12_zm/ it's obviously a former polygamist home I mean I can't imagine another use for a 14 BR/17 BA house.  Be great for a group home or small in though. 

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quiversR4hunting
On Saturday, May 06, 2017 at 8:30 PM, hilee said:

Wow not shocking though so sad. 

I did see this house in Hilldale https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Colorado-City-AZ/pmf,pf_pt/125131064_zpid/17531_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/37.009886,-112.923661,36.937201,-113.040905_rect/12_zm/ it's obviously a former polygamist home I mean I can't imagine another use for a 14 BR/17 BA house.  Be great for a group home or small in though. 

Wow. 1. That would be an awesome sorority house. 2. Doesn't the FLDS say red is the color of the devil? Why so much red or pink carpet. 3. Looks like someone high up lived there because it was done and nice. On the tv shows it doesn't show a lot of homes as being complete. Let alone a pool. 

Edited by quiversR4hunting
Forgot about the pool

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meowfundiecatz
38 minutes ago, quiversR4hunting said:

Wow. 1. That would be an awesome sorority house. 2. Doesn't the FLDS say red is the color of the devil? Why so much red or pink carpet. 3. Looks like someone high up lived there because it was done and nice. On the tv shows it doesn't show a lot of homes as being complete. Let alone a pool. 

The pool looks like a baptistry IMO.

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quiversR4hunting
9 minutes ago, meowfundiecatz said:

The pool looks like a baptistry IMO.

Oh! Well that never entered my mind!

If it is, then that house was most definitely the house of a higher up in the cult.

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ak1188
The local police began following us the minute we hit the town limits and tailgated us until we were about 5 miles beyond the towns. 


This is so scary!! I'm fascinated by the FLDS and polygamy and I've always wanted to see what an FLDS town looks like in real life. I'll never go to one intentionally because I'm scared of being hassled by the God Squad, but your whole post sounds so surreal.

Mr. AK and I were going to take a trip that took us through Zion, Arches, and Bryce, but we ended up having some unexpected expenses. We talked about what it might be like for us in a place like Utah, though. We're an interracial couple, I'm multiracial myself, and Mr. AK has full tattoo sleeves on both arms. I can't imagine how they would react to us if they got so disturbed by your lipstick. Kudos to you for saying something to them!

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JermajestyDuggar
On 5/6/2017 at 8:30 PM, hilee said:

Wow not shocking though so sad. 

I did see this house in Hilldale https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Colorado-City-AZ/pmf,pf_pt/125131064_zpid/17531_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/37.009886,-112.923661,36.937201,-113.040905_rect/12_zm/ it's obviously a former polygamist home I mean I can't imagine another use for a 14 BR/17 BA house.  Be great for a group home or small in though. 

I looked closely at the pictures and it looks like it's not currently in an FLDS family. There was a picture in a bedroom of a couple that didn't look FLDS at all. And there was a giant tv mounted on the wall. Plus it said the whole first floor was renovated in 2014. So I'm guessing someone bought it in the last few years, did some renovating, and is now moving. Probably because they realized they are surrounded by a creepy cult. 

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Red Hair, Black Dress

AK1188. Our trip was 20 years ago so hopefully things have changed.  The cops tailgating was unnerving because we couldn't figure out why, We had a rental with NV plates so obviously weren't from there.  Mr. Dress drove the absolute exact speed limit and the cop kept pace with us.  We didn't realize we'd driven through the (in)famous  Short Creek until later that day as all the signs say Hildale/ Colorado City

Honestly the creepy guy at the gas station was what got to me, although in hindight he was young, maybe 20, and mostly likely wasn't used to seeing too many people from the outside "gentile" world"  We were off the highway and exploring back roads and little towns. 

I will say that UT was the least racially diverse place I've ever been (and that includes Maine), I cannot recall seeing a single person of color anywhere except in St George at the outlet mall and then only a few people.

All that said, go on your trip .  Bryce, Arches, ZIon are so amazing and there are so many other incredible things to see.  And I think that the insulated isolated Uthans need to be exposed to more outside people.  We're not out to corrupt or convert them, but they need to realize that tattoos and red lipstick do not a satanist make.  

 

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zee_four
On 5/6/2017 at 9:52 AM, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

Mr Dress and I did a southern Utah/northern AZ vacay years ago.  The scenery is gorgeous, --- Zion & Bryce Canyons, Fruita, etc.  But driving through Short Creek was .....um ..... a little disconcerting.  The highway bisects the 2 towns and you can see the huge houses  with tons of children swarming outside.  The local police began following us the minute we hit the town limits and tailgated us until we were about 5 miles beyond the towns. 

Mr. Dress joked that they were checking me out as more wives were needed.

Another time we stopped for gas in what was probably an FLDS town at a sort of general store with gas pumps.  I went in to find a ladies room and when I asked, the male clerk answered with "You're not from here are you? Why are you here? Are you alone? You're pretty." I got the restroom key, finished quickly and bolted to the car.

We were at dinner in Cedar City UT (home of Southern UT University) when my jeans, black tee, black jacket and red lipstick become the hot topic of conversation at the table of girl students right next to us. Speaking so I could hear them they speculated we must be from LA or Las Vegas. That the black clothes and red lipstick  meant I obviously wasn't Mormon, probably didn't believe in God and most likely worshipped Satan.  

Seriously, they were not joking.  They continued to speculate why we were in town, wondered if they should alert the elders of their ward, and the deans at the college, and in general felt that someone should ask us to leave town,

As we finished and left the restaurant I leaned into their table and said "You all got it wrong. It's not lipstick. It's dried blood" Horrified/terrified looks and gasps all round the group.

Probably mean of me, but they were exceedingly rude and yeah, I'm like that once in a while.

I'm from western CO and we raft down the Colorado to Westwater all the time.

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Howl
3 hours ago, zee_four said:

I'm from western CO and we raft down the Colorado to Westwater all the time.

Great stretch of river!  Reminds me that I need to spend some time checking out Dominguez and Escalante canyons, too. 

I was remembering an episode of my life from 1995.  After finishing a project based out of Green River, UT,  I decided to take the long and somewhat more scenic route home through Hanksville, UT,  where I stopped at a cafe for breakfast.  There were only guys in there and they all turned to stare.  And I do mean blatantly stare, like "there's a stranger and a woman, what the heck".  It was an uncomfortable situation and I just left.  Hanksville is not a polygamist community, but at the time it was a very geographically isolated place and uniformly Mormon. Women do not hang out in the town's cafe in the daytime.  That's for guys to hang out and drink coffee. 

I think times have changed.  I ran into some geologists recently who had bought a retirement house in Hanksville.  Property is cheap and it's about as scenic as a place can be. 

Edited by Howl

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Mischievous
ADoyle90815

I've been through those FLDS towns in what they call Short Creek, on a vacation with my mom and her husband after visiting the Grand Canyon. We didn't get followed by the God Squad, but Colorado City was still pretty creepy with the unfinished houses. I even wore a red t-shirt and jeans, since it was still relatively cold until we got to St George. That was where we stayed for one last night before returning to Las Vegas where my mom lives.

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zee_four
13 hours ago, Howl said:

Great stretch of river!  Reminds me that I need to spend some time checking out Dominguez and Escalante canyons, too. 

I was remembering an episode of my life from 1995.  After finishing a project based out of Green River, UT,  I decided to take the long and somewhat more scenic route home through Hanksville, UT,  where I stopped at a cafe for breakfast.  There were only guys in there and they all turned to stare.  And I do mean blatantly stare, like "there's a stranger and a woman, what the heck".  It was an uncomfortable situation and I just left.  Hanksville is not a polygamist community, but at the time it was a very geographically isolated place and uniformly Mormon. Women do not hang out in the town's cafe in the daytime.  That's for guys to hang out and drink coffee. 

I think times have changed.  I ran into some geologists recently who had bought a retirement house in Hanksville.  Property is cheap and it's about as scenic as a place can be. 

Isn't it?? I grew up in a ski town and have been really into boating (rafting and kayaking for non westerners). The two big guide companies in town are mostly employed by ski patrol from the 2 big mountains here. Every April they run ruby canyon to Westwater in a day to train their newbies. We do a 10 day fruits to Westwater float every year with a couple days of camping in ruby. 

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gustava

I was in Colorado City two years ago.  i had to buy stamps and walk my dogs.  No problems.

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Walking Cat Bed

Ohh, I hope my library (where I work) gets this copy of High Country News. It's on our "not retained" list, which means it gets recycled (and I'm allowed to recycle those items to myself, so long as they're already being recycled).

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Howl

Just checked in to the Salt Lake Tribune for FLDS news and there is a great article on how an LDS ward is establishing a presence in Colorado City.    Mormon church — the one that doesn’t practice polygamy — is becoming a fixture in a polygamous town

A nearby LDS ward (Apple Valley) is holding Tuesday night meetings in Colorado City

Quote

for ward-sponsored Cub and Boy Scouts troops and young women groups.  The ward's scoutmaster, Richard Fischer, said 33 boys from Colorado City and the surrounding communities signed up for Scouting at an April 26 informational barbecue. Some of the boys are from LDS households, Fischer said. Others are from polygamous households or families with a different religion or none at all.

The young women groups really caught my eye; I'm sure there are so many FLDS girls and young women in that area who could benefit from structured exposure to life outside of FLDS.  

 


 

 

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mstee

Having the LDS ward nearby will probably help the women of the FLDS-who want to leave- leave with support and with a religion that isn't too far off from what they are used to. 

I also wanted to add that I've been though the polygamous twin cities 5+ times between 5-10 years ago and never had any issues. It was more of a ghost town than anything. I knew people were there, but they were not out and about. The only time I really saw flds members was at the walmart in Hurricane/st George 

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Howl
1 hour ago, mstee said:

Having the LDS ward nearby will probably help the women of the FLDS-who want to leave- leave with support and with a religion that isn't too far off from what they are used to. 

It took me a little bit to realize that there was more story below an ad.  Hold on to your hats, folks, the LDS has sent Mormon MISSIONARIES to Short Creek.  No, I'm not making that up!  LDS is proselytizing FLDS!  They have the Book of Mormon in common, and FLDS know this forwards and backwards, but FLDS have teachings way outside even fringe LDS.  The missionaries say that it's a hard go.  

The Apple Valley folks have been providing a lot of support to many in Short Creek. 

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