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In Australia: IBLP sells; media call a cult a cult


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MamaJunebug

IBLP is selling at least part of its real estate in Oz, and if that isn't good news enough, a newspaper report calls the group a cult, describes the Duggars' show as "canned" (aka "cancelled") and also mentions the peccadilloes of Josh & Mr. G!!!

ETAsk, don't need to hide the image? I'm sorry if so! It's bunktime for me *and* my phone, I'm loopy.

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Edited by MamaJunebug
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nickelodeon

I guess even sending David Waller and the Bates (and the honeymooning Vuolos) there couldn't make Australia repent of its sinful ways. Alas!!!

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Palindrome
30 minutes ago, nickelodeon said:

I guess even sending David Waller and the Bates (and the honeymooning Vuolos) there couldn't make Australia repent of its sinful ways. Alas!!!

This is magical. After promoting the trip for weeks on their prospective Instagrams, all David Waller and co have managed to achieve is to get the place shut down. Hahahahaha! 

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I've been lurking for awhile, but I had to celebrate the closer and sale of the IBLP compound. You can't save our defrauding clothes wearing, alcohol drenched souls.

We're such a sinful nation, down under and closer to hell haha

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JermajestyDuggar

I just hope it keeps heading in this direction. Closing down and selling all of their buildings until all they have left is ALERT and headquarters in TX. 

I stay hopeful that no new fundies are sucked in while many of the newly grown cult members are leaving. This is very good news. 

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BlessingsVonFundiePants

I'm willing to bet that the visit to our fair shores was to finalise sale arrangements and sign contracts. The encouraging ministry sessions were spin spin spin 

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MamaJunebug

Newspaper also called the Duggars the "most notorious" of IBLP homeschooling graduates. Tell it like it is, Aussie journalists! Notorious means "famous or well known, typically for some bad quality or deed." Back in composition class, we were forbidden to use it unless the definition fit precisely. Which, in this case, ohyeah it does!!

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I just hope it keeps heading in this direction. Closing down and selling all of their buildings until all they have left is ALERT and headquarters in TX. 

(snipped)

Why even leave those? Let it ALL be gone!!! 

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formergothardite
1 hour ago, BlessingsVonFundiePants said:

I'm willing to bet that the visit to our fair shores was to finalise sale arrangements and sign contracts. The encouraging ministry sessions were spin spin spin 

ITA. Bringing in all the big guys like Pecan and the Bates was just a distraction from how bad the Australian endeavor was going. Gothard was so happy when he opened the Australian training center. He was sure he was going to save the entire continent. :laughing-jumpingpurple: 

I'm really surprised it hung on this long. They can't have that many training centers left, I think they will be down to Texas soon. 

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Feministe9000

http://www.realestate.com.au/news/controversial-american-religious-group-institute-in-basic-life-principles-selling-melbourne-base/

From article: "MBA Multisell director Mike Brown said the site was originally a Commonwealth Bank training facility and was bought by the IBLP in the 1990s.

“They’ve been running home schooling groups out of there as well as housing single mothers and certain homeless families on short term arrangements and obviously they have various functions for the IBLP once a year as well for the ministry,” he said.

“They’re basically selling it because the maintenance and cost of keeping the building is way too high and it’s starting to fall apart and they don’t really need that big a property. Mr Brown said the IBLP would use the proceeds of the sale to buy a smaller base in the area."

They arn't leaving Australia. They are using the proceeds of selling the big compound to buy a smaller version in the area....

 

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Lurky
2 hours ago, BlessingsVonFundiePants said:

I'm willing to bet that the visit to our fair shores was to finalise sale arrangements and sign contracts. The encouraging ministry sessions were spin spin spin 

Yes, this - sending folk out there to meet with lawyers/instruct estate agents etc etc.  Plus a nice holiday with other people babysitting the kids (both the ones back home, and the older Bateses babysitting the younger kids taken out there).  No way could they have sent anyone over to do that business without the excuse of the "mission", as flights to Aus are expensive!

(Which of the Holiday-makers are still on the Board?  I forget)

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JermajestyDuggar
1 hour ago, MamaJunebug said:

 

Why even leave those? Let it ALL be gone!!! 

I think that's all that will be left for quite some time. ALERT seems to be doing ok. So I'm guessing they will hang onto ALERT and the Texas headquarters for awhile. But I'm hoping the rest is shut down in the next few years.

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MamaJunebug
7 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think that's all that will be left for quite some time. ALERT seems to be doing ok. So I'm guessing they will hang onto ALERT and the Texas headquarters for awhile. But I'm hoping the rest is shut down in the next few years.

From your keyboard to all the ears!

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CyborgKin

Interesting.  I heard something about ATI existing in some form here Down Under (I heard second hand that someone I vaguely know is or was involved in some form), but never got to look into it very deeply.

If only I had 6mil to spare... :(

(except they'd the money, drat.)

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Palimpsest
On 4/28/2017 at 9:27 AM, Feministe9000 said:

“They’re basically selling it because the maintenance and cost of keeping the building is way too high and it’s starting to fall apart and they don’t really need that big a property. Mr Brown said the IBLP would use the proceeds of the sale to buy a smaller base in the area."

They arn't leaving Australia. They are using the proceeds of selling the big compound to buy a smaller version in the area....

Exactly. IBLP is down but not out.  It is going to end with a whimper not a bang. So @CyborgKin and our other FJ members Down Under can still go Fundie spotting at their leisure.  

On 4/28/2017 at 9:39 AM, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think that's all that will be left for quite some time. ALERT seems to be doing ok. So I'm guessing they will hang onto ALERT and the Texas headquarters for awhile. But I'm hoping the rest is shut down in the next few years.

Oh, IBLP has a LOT more property than that.  I think people forget, or perhaps never knew how big IBLP was in its heyday.  They invested in a lot of real estate over the years.  It is a way of making investments, appearing that they were growing, and convincing the IRS that they are actually doing something with donated money.  This is also a scam used by $cientology. 

The fact that they put the Oak Brook HQ, and other property in IL, up for sale was an attempt at getting assets out of IL because of the law suit.  I suppose the judge's order preventing those sales is still holding on that.

Looking at their "training centers" alone, not other property and residential housing for staff, they are still hanging on to:

  • Eagle Mountain Training Center, AR
  • Eagle Springs Training Center, OK
  • Indianapolis South Campus
  • Little Rock Training Center (where Josh Duggar did hard labor after molesting his sisters)
  • Northwoods Conference Center, MI (they are hanging on like grim death to this one)
  • Oklahoma City Training Center

and ALERT, of course.

If they start closing those down then it will give them enough money to keep going for some time.  Then there are the spin off properties and institutions like the School of Law, TELOS, Verity,  Embassy Media, and Character First.

Internationally it is not just Australia.  They also have the  Arahina Training Center in New Zealand, one in Romania and one in Mongolia. 

On 4/28/2017 at 9:30 AM, Lurky said:

(Which of the Holiday-makers are still on the Board?  I forget)

The present IBLP board is Tim Levendusky (president), Stephen Paine, Gil Bates, and David York.  The Pecan is "Director of ATI."

 

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sawasdee

I've read on FJ for a long time before I actually registered. And the thing I STILL cannot get my head around is the cognitive dissonance between the NT and what IBLP teaches.

Jesus said -  Judge not, lest you be judged - yeah, tell the LBTQ community that.

Jesus said - Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's. - That seems to say keep church and state separate.

Jesus first appeared after the resurrection to women - he obviously didn't consider them inferior.

And all the women being submissive stuff comes from 1 Timothy - which is regarded as a forgery by all reputable Bible scholars, as amongst other things, it contradicts what Paul said elsewhere, and cites theological ideas that came along much later.

According to the NT, Jesus says that prayer should be private, and those that make a show of their faith on earth have already been rewarded - it is those who pray in private that God sees.

So why don't they read their Bible?

Or do none of them have critical thinking skills?

They are following a false prophet.

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MamaJunebug
On 4/28/2017 at 8:27 AM, Feministe9000 said:

They arn't leaving Australia. They are using the proceeds of selling the big compound to buy a smaller version in the area....

Damn.

9 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

This is also a scam used by $cientology. 

"By their fruits you shall know them." Yup.

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BobTheWalrus
22 hours ago, sawasdee said:

 1 Timothy - which is regarded as a forgery by all reputable Bible scholars,

Umm.... no.

It is certainly debated as to what the meaning of the passages are, and there is a lot of debate about was it cultural, how does it fit with other things that Paul wrote. But to say it's considered a forgery by all reputable scholars is a complete nonsense. Unless you have a very different and limited definition of "reputable" unknown to most Christians.

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sawasdee

@BobTheWalrus

http://www.newsweek.com/2015/01/02/thats-not-what-bible-says-294018.html

 

"The next thing to check here is whether 1 Timothy was based on a forgery. And the answer to that is a resounding yes. In 1807, a German scholar named Friedrich Schleiermacher published a letter observing that 1 Timothy used arguments that clashed with other letters written by Paul. Moreover, 1 Timothy attacks false teachings, but they are not the types of teachings prevalent when Paul was writing—instead, they are more akin to the beliefs of the Gnostics, a sect that did not exist until long after Paul’s death. And at times, whoever wrote this letter uses the same words as Paul but means something completely different by them. Most biblical scholars agree that Paul did not write 1 Timothy."

Sorry, should have said most, not all.

 

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VelociRapture
On 4/30/2017 at 5:45 PM, sawasdee said:

 Jesus said - Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's. - That seems to say keep church and state separate.

There are actually a ton of interpretations about this. Some say it's separation of church and state, others say it's about tax evasion, or the importance of paying what you owe, etc.

Heres a Wikipedia page about the various interpretations if you're interested:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar

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sawasdee

Thanks, @VelociRapture! That was interesting - how many interpretations of less than twenty words can be made......some more convincing than others!

And that's just a few words of the NT - no wonder there are so many variations on Christianity :my_dodgy:

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Bethella
2 hours ago, sawasdee said:

Thanks, @VelociRapture! That was interesting - how many interpretations of less than twenty words can be made......some more convincing than others!

And that's just a few words of the NT - no wonder there are so many variations on Christianity :my_dodgy:

Yeah, if the Bible is the inerrant word of God- why couldn't he have been a little clearer about what he really meant?

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CyborgKin

Sooo I sent the link to the realestate.com.au article to my dad.  His response was along the lines of it being unfair to make it look like this Australian group had the problems the American group has, that it's wrong to call them a 'cult', and that the allegations against Gothard are "sad if true", but people often do that to successful people like what was done to Cliff Richard.

:o 

I guess that's not surprising since he still has DPiaT DVDs on the shelf and still recommends Divided which features DPiaT.

*sigh*

Oh, and regarding the Bible verses said to be added since the originals: he also recently said that the reasons some passages are missing from old Bible manuscripts may be because the manuscripts are old and those bits didn't survive.

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BobTheWalrus
7 hours ago, sawasdee said:

@BobTheWalrus

http://www.newsweek.com/2015/01/02/thats-not-what-bible-says-294018.html

 

"The next thing to check here is whether 1 Timothy was based on a forgery. And the answer to that is a resounding yes. In 1807, a German scholar named Friedrich Schleiermacher published a letter observing that 1 Timothy used arguments that clashed with other letters written by Paul. Moreover, 1 Timothy attacks false teachings, but they are not the types of teachings prevalent when Paul was writing—instead, they are more akin to the beliefs of the Gnostics, a sect that did not exist until long after Paul’s death. And at times, whoever wrote this letter uses the same words as Paul but means something completely different by them. Most biblical scholars agree that Paul did not write 1 Timothy."

Sorry, should have said most, not all.

 

There's so much nonsense in that article I can't even begin to address it all here. A lot of it is really just a rant against American fundamentalist Christianity, though, rather than being a helpful analysis of the Bible and Christianity in general. The author makes sweeping generalisations: did they actually call up every Bible scholar who had ever worked on origins and translation and run a poll to see how many thought that about 1 Timothy? I seriously doubt it. It's just a convenient statement to make Christians seem ignorant.  Are you seriously suggesting that MOST Bible scholars know they've dedicated their lives to a fraud and are doing nothing about it?

To give an example: this thing about the different manuscripts, and word changes and so on. That's not a secret to most Christians, or at least the ones I know. I'm sure there are people who try to act like it's a pagan conspiracy to bring down Christianity.  But my Bible, for example, has footnotes which say "this passage does not appear in the earliest manuscripts". It has notes saying "the meaning of this word is unclear", or telling that this word could also mean something else, and they've chosen the way they did because it seems to fit the context better. We know that it is the original writings in the original languages that are considered to be inspired, not the translations. Because yes, some translations are better than others. Some are more direct, but that often produces a clunkier, harder-to-read English version. Some are word for word, some are idea for idea translations. Some, like The Message, are paraphrases. I don't know anyone who would think the Message is an inspired translation, but it can be helpful for illuminating a passage in modern language. Several preachers at my church deliberately use multiple versions of the Bible for this very reason - different vocabulary choices in the translation can bring out different points or understandings.  And all things considered - the fact that these are ancient documents copied by hand over generations - the remarkable thing is how similar modern translations are, not how different.  These word discrepancies make very little difference to the overall story and picture of the Bible. It's about God's redemption towards mankind, and a small discussion about long hair versus head coverings doesn't make a huge amount of difference to that.

Someone from (?) Wycliffe Bible translators spoke once about having to translate the passage about "wash me and I shall be whiter than snow" into a Pacific island language that didn't have a word for snow because such a things didn't exist where they lived. So they rendered it "I shall be whiter than the inside of a coconut". Obviously that's not the inspired original! And that's why any future translations into that language would take into account the existing translation, but they would also want to refer back to the oldest and most reliable original manuscripts.

Another example: the fact that different people came to Jesus' tomb. Think about a court case where several eye witnesses give testimony. You would expect there to be overlap if they are telling the truth, but you would also expect there to be discrepancies. One person saw just Mary. Another person was there earlier and saw John, but not any of the Marys. One person saw Mary and some other people. Doesn't mean they're lying, it just means they saw different things. In fact, if there was too much similarity between their stories the police would suspect that they had colluded to make it up. It's important to remember that when we say the Scriptures are inspired, we don't mean that God dictated it word for word and so any discrepancies are extremely problematic. We mean that God inspired many people over a long period of time to write down their experiences of Him.

I'm sorry this has become a long essay, but I was amazed at how biased this article is. It goes on about certain issues as if Christians are hiding them from the world, when in actual fact most of us are well aware of them and take them into account when we read the Bible. And it lists a string of "inconsistencies" which, with proper understanding (something sadly lacking in many American fundamentalist groups) can be made sense of.

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