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Fundie vs Non-Fundie Real Life


pook

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On ‎19‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 4:50 PM, Tangy Bee said:

Let's talk about the big ass bow Suri Holmes is wearing in her 11th bday pic. Wait...is her dad even considered a fundie scientologist?? Well, I assume her mom is not raising her with scientology beliefs. But Suri has been spotted with these big, colorfull bows in her hair. Non fundie, using fundie accessories??

They seem to be in at the moment amongst girls in that age group, I see loads of kids wearing them lately.

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Fundie: Love to wear skirts and dresses. Hate dress pants so much I'd like to have a pants fire in my yard to get rid of all of them (they make me feel old; I don't find them flattering; and I may have a hangover from Catholic school where we did not have uniforms but a dress code that required them or skirts/dresses and getting dresses I liked to fit the dress code was a pain. Getting pants that fit me right was worse at that age as I was super thin with long legs and hips) . Won't be seen in leggings without a tunic or dress over them (I carry all my extra weight in my hips and  upper thighs--not a good look for me). 

Not fundie: Love jeans, too. Wear them all the time. All my dresses and skirts are above the knee because I have long nice legs (once we are below the hip/upper thigh area) and why hide my best feature in a maxi dress? Wear shorts that hit about four inches above the knee in summer. Wear strapless, sleeveless and spaghetti straps regularly in summer. Show some cleavage occasionally; especially for a date night with the husband. 

Fundie: Live in flip flops all summer, but would prefer being barefooted. 

Not Fundie: Mine are all $50 and up ones with arch supports and heel cushioning. Haven't worn cheap ones since I was in my 20s. My feet won't tolerate them. 

Fundie: Go to church every weekend and teach kids at church on Wednesday nights. 

Not Fundie: It's Catholic church and the kids are preparing for confirmation. 

Fundie: Long hair. "Bra strap" length as my previous stylist referred to it. 

Not Fundie: Had short hair from age 25 until I grew it out five years ago. Super short hair for some of those years. And I may cut it to just above shoulder length soon. I am contemplating it. 

Fundie: I love to cook and bake. 

Not Fundie: Husband does all the cleaning (besides dusting and cleaning mirrors--somehow those two are not on his agenda, so I do those but he seems to think we either have a dust free home and self-cleaning mirrors or fairies come do those two jobs, not sure which). I leave all of it for him because if I actually do it, he decides it wasn't done right and does it again. We can fight about it (because being told I don't do it right makes me pretty pissy), or I can just leave it for him to do and live in peace. 

Fundie: Love small kids and babies. 

Not Fundie: Never had my own thanks to marrying late and the recession of 2008 destroying us financially for the last of my fertile years. 

 

 

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Man, every time I read this thread I see something I should have put on my not-fudie list:

 

Take (and love) birth control pills

Best friends with a gay man (was the "hag of honor" -- no, wait the Groomsmaid -- as his wedding) and have lots of other LGBTQ friends

Fucking A, I swear!

MLMs: NO! 

Drink, on occasion

I don't use any recreational drugs, but I think they should be legal

Ears and a nose piercing (although I guess Kelly Bradrick had one too, before she was sent back to her daddy's care and his rules)

Not submissive, at all.

List keeps growing...

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15 minutes ago, Closed Womb said:

Man, every time I read this thread I see something I should have put on my not-fudie list:

 

Take (and love) birth control pills

Best friends with a gay man (was the "hag of honor" -- no, wait the Groomsmaid -- as his wedding) and have lots of other LGBTQ friends

Fucking A, I swear!

MLMs: NO! 

Drink, on occasion

I don't use any recreational drugs, but I think they should be legal

Ears and a nose piercing (although I guess Kelly Bradrick had one too, before she was sent back to her daddy's care and his rules)

Not submissive, at all.

List keeps growing...

My list keeps growing too so no worries.

Fundie:

*I feel naked in leggings and would rather wear a skirt.

*I love the idea of cloth diapers and cloth period pads...but too lazy, even though I can sew like nobody's business.

*My period is wonks this month and if it's not the change I would welcome another little "blessing".

*I have no piercings outside of my ears once only.

*I enjoy going to church (even though it's only for weddings and funerals).

*My children attend vacation bible school.

*I worked a fundie approved job as a nanny until I was 27 and then graduated from nursing school as a late bloomer.

*Mr. Pook does blue jobs around the house and I do pink ones.

*I do all the laundry.

Not Fundie:

*I really really want a tattoo.

*I had an abortion in my early 20s, for my own reasons, with absolutely no regrets.

*Last month I partially died my hair blue.

*I pay for someone to clean my house.

*Mr. Pook does most of the grocery shopping and more than half of the cooking.

 

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In the interest of thread drift and out of curiosity, a number of respondents have listed a preference for homeschooling.  May I inquire why?  Not trying to start a war, just wondering.

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11 hours ago, amandaaries said:

In the interest of thread drift and out of curiosity, a number of respondents have listed a preference for homeschooling.  May I inquire why?  Not trying to start a war, just wondering.

For me, I think homeschooling takes major dedication, motivation and skill - I'm looking at you JRod!  I just know that I don't have it in me to homeschool as it should be done and anyway the mini Pooks are thriving in public school.

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11 hours ago, amandaaries said:

In the interest of thread drift and out of curiosity, a number of respondents have listed a preference for homeschooling.  May I inquire why?  Not trying to start a war, just wondering.

If we had had kids, I would have seriously considered homeschooling at least through primary grades. My reasons:

*Most methods used in primary education in my area (and as a sub teacher I see it directly) is not age appropriate. There is too much paper and pencil, drill and skill instruction and not enough hands on learning. 

*Schools in my area are pushing kids too much academically in the early grades. Our local public school district, in an effort to raise test scores, requires kids to be reading and doing math at least one semester above grade level or they are placed in after school "enrichment" twice a week to bring them up to that standard (example: at the end of first grade, kids must be reading at level for the middle of second grade). Research has shown that due to developmental differences (perfectly normal ones), kids master basic reading at different ages. Most research shows that minor lags in grade level (as well as being a bit ahead) evens out by third grade where most kids reach grade level (in the absence of learning disabilities or other developmental issues--and of course some kids will remain ahead). Pushing them to be not just at grade level but ahead is unrealistic. Placing kids who are not above grade level in supplemental programs also sends them the message that they are behind and not doing well enough which is a bad way to start their education. 

*All day kindergarten is not all that beneficial. I say that having subbed in all day kindergarten quite frequently. Most kids are maxed out by about 1:30, even with a generous rest time. Pushing them to continue when they are exhausted little people is not benefiting them or getting their education off to a good, happy, healthy start. 

*The emphasis on testing and test prep. Our local public school district starts test prep activities like multiple choice worksheets, online practice programs, etc...right away in kindergarten. Time is taken away from developmentally appropriate learning activities to practice for tests from the start. 

Seeing testing up close this week as a sub--8th graders missing four periods of instructional time for one half of one test in one subject area (the ones we teach in religious ed told us they had 6 more of that set of tests to go and then had to do two days of another test), for example, complete with a BS talk from a teacher about how important the test was for their future when it is not--it is important for the school's funding and reputation and has no direct impact on the kids. Seeing a schedule at one high school where the two grades that do not have to test simply did not have school for two days while the others tested.... I was in a math classroom earlier this year where the schedule on the teacher's desk indicated they had spent two entire weeks doing nothing but practice tests in class. If we had had kids, I may have homeschooled longer than primary after all, if we could not have found a way to get them to a private school where learning is put ahead of testing. 

 

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I homeschooled my kids. Not for religious reasons, but because they did not do well in traditional school settings. Between the ADHD, the interest levels, and the ability levels, my kids were not well suited for a traditional school (especially since we lived in BFE Indiana and the schools SUCKED). I sent my kids back for high school and that was probably the biggest mistake I ever made. Not one of them graduated. (my bio kids). They're all very intelligent and have pursued challenging careers including graphic arts, IT, etc. They actually did better in college than anywhere else...but I think it was less emphasis on testing and the ability to pursue their interests. I DID have them tested yearly for progress/grade equivalent...and well...they were making good progress...at or above grade level. 

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Oooo, fun thread.  

Fundie-appearing traits:

I wear long skirts and cover my hair 90% of the time.

My kids never went to school; homeschooled all the way.

I read the Bible every morning.

I love a good casserole (but no tater tots please) and I love to bake bread.

I haven't had any TV reception in my home in well over a decade and have never had cable in my whole married life (almost 25 years).

I love to ogle period clothing and have a historical fashion board on Pinterest with over 2,000 pins.

(I used to have WAY more fundie traits but thankfully I chucked them all in the last decade)

NON-FUNDIE HEATHEN-LIKE BEHAVIOR:

I love classic rock and heavy metal; KISS and Disturbed are two of my all-time favorite bands.

My favorite TV show in the history of ever is Six Feet Under.

I swear.  A LOT.  

I smoke.

I drink (very occasionally because of medication/mental health issues).

The day marijuana gets legalized nationwide or the day I go to Colorado or California on vacation, whichever comes first, I will be a tokin' fool and HIGH AS A FUCKING KITE.  

The Bible verses I read each day are the prescribed ones from the Orthodox Liturgical Calendar, and Old Calendar at that, so I'm sure that somehow cancels out any benefit they might have, LOL.

I am Orthodox (see above), therefore according to most fundies I'm an idol-worshiper and not saved.  I regularly ask dead people to pray for me.  I burn incense at church and at home.  I chant.  

I have a large tattoo on my left shoulder blade (but it's a cross, hehe).

Other women's reproductive choices are none of my damn business.

Mental illness is REAL ILLNESS.  I should know, I have had 3 and were it not for my amazing former therapist and current psychiatrist, I'd be dead.  Twice.

I don't "honor my parents" because their negligence fucked up my head and my life.

My kids wear, listen to, eat, say and do pretty much whatever the fuck they want and I love them unconditionally always.  When I backed off the fundie kool-aid years ago was when they really began to blossom and they are amazing young adults.   

 

 

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Fundie:

Don't drink or smoke

Dress modestly (I just don't like showing off my body very much)

Was a virgin until I got married the first time

Don't swear (my southern mama drilled into me how unladylike it is and it just stuck)

I love tater tot hotdish (casserole)

I believe in God and try to follow the things that Jesus actually taught (love God and your neighbor, forgive others and do good to help people) 

I love Cracker Barrel

I love thrift stores (we have some that usually have nice items donated to  them)

I know my Bible pretty well 

I like to sew and cook 

Not Fundie:

Divorced and remarried

Only one child (and one on the way)

I work outside the home

Mr JFH and I are equal partners in life and he's told me before that if he wanted a doormat he'd go buy one from Walmart (ha, I love this man so much) 

Don't go to church (I believe that God is more concerned with his children actually, y'know, doing things in real life to help people than just sitting and listening to someone talk about it)

I love dancing and not-fundy approved music (Pink Floyd, gasp! Bowie, the horror!)

My daughter is NOT going to be a "sister mom" to her new baby brother or sister. If she wants to play with him/her or do things to help me, great, but I'm not going to force her to

 

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FUNDIE:

- I don't drink (although that is because I can't, not because I don't want to :( )

-I don't smoke

-Never tried recreational drugs of any sort.

-Only had one boyfriend (so haven't given away any pieces of my heart as yet)

- I have read the bible. 

- I like to bake. 

- I wear mostly skirts and dresses.

 

NOT FUNDIE

- Non-religious.

- Believe in evolution.

-Have a masters degree.

- Support LGBTQI rights

-Support a women's right to choose.

- Am a socialist.

-Believe in universal health care. 

-I am an ebil social worker.

- In an interracial relationship.

-Treat my chronic illness with actual medication.

-Have 7 piercings.

-Have had green hair (also had pink and blue)

- 25 and unmarried. 

- Not sure I want children.

-Treat my pets like members of the family and feed them properly (looking at you, Duggars and Bateseses). 

- I don't dress very modestly outside of work. 

- I do yoga (in SHORTS) and there are men there. 

- I don't eat anything canned.

- I cannot stand pickles. 

 

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Fundie:

-Long hair

-don't wear revealing clothing anymore due to middle age chubbiness (but I rocked a bikini at 15)

- non drinker, non smoker

non-fundie:

-never go to church, don't teach my kid about religion 

-college degree from great public university & expect the same for my kid. I actually want her to be educated & self supporting.

- only one kid, married at 36

-love BC, had 1 abortion at 21

- realize homeschooling would be a death match between my daughter & I so I prefer evil public school. Apparently I do not know more than a seventh grader! 

- strongly support equal rights for all, gun control except for hunters, mind my own business is a real guideline!

- DH cooks all the time, his choice. I clean & do laundry.

- I work full time & provide insurance & other benefits for the family.

- feel religion has no place in government decisions, supports sex Ed in public schools

- do not believe in spanking kids, think talking things out results in kid who can think critically & make decisions on her own.

- I actually like exchanging different views with others. It's interesting to learn about other people's lives. No bubble here!

 

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Ooooh this looks like fun! Ok, here's mine: 

 

Fundie: 

- I am an active member of my conservative Christian church (NOT IFB, just for the record)

- I read my Bible and study theology for fun (yes I am one of those) 

- I fully believe in complementarian headship/submission (but none of that doormat/slave version fundies advocate)

- I love a good bargain, and rarely pay full-price for anything 

- I have never smoked or done drugs 

- I don't curse 

- I actually LOVE flip-flops (but don't wear them all the time, because appropriate footwear for the activity is important) 

- I currently live at home with my parents since I am single, and currently have no plans to move out in the near future 

- I preferred skirts-only at one point in my life (minus pajamas and workout clothes)

- I don't necessarily have anything against homeschooling, as long as it's done correctly and children get a well-rounded educational foundation for later 

- We only buy used cars in my family (my current car is 16 years old) 

- I grew up wearing hand-me-downs and generic (non-brand name) shoes

 

NON-Fundie: 

- I don't like the KJV translation and believe that ESV and NASB are vastly superior and more accurate to the original language(s)

- I love my leggings and yoga pants 

- I adore live theatre, and I don't believe there's any show currently on Broadway that fundies would approve of. In addition, my favorite genre of music is showtunes.

- I went to "evil" public school, then went on to college and grad school (albeit private Christian university, but still considered a more liberal one by rival schools) 

- Although I still live with my parents, I am NOT a SAHD, nor would I ever advocate for that. I firmly believe that young women need to be able to support themselves, or at least cultivate the skills to be able to. Furthermore, they should know how to properly and appropriately interact with the rest of society.

- I watch The Office, Friends, SNL, etc. 

- I don't shop at thrift stores (plus we don't have any good ones here). I'd rather pay more for something that fits me correctly and is well-made than try to take the crap in my local thrift stores and try to make it work.

- I probably definitely spend way more than most people on basic necessities/toiletries/make-up due to skin sensitivity and trying to be a conscientious consumer (but still rarely pay full-price).

- If I ever get engaged, I would expect my fiancé to ask my parents for their permission/blessing, but not to date/court me.

- I HATE MLMs!!!!

- I believe that being a SAHM or SAHW is a valid CHOICE, but not the ONLY path of godliness. 

- I don't think dates with a significant other need to be chaperoned. If you have so little self-control that you need someone physically there to hold you accountable while you hang out at Starbucks, you have bigger issues to deal with. 

- I grew up eating mostly fresh produce and meats, and not much processed food (mostly because I grew up a coastal city with tons of produce markets and ethnic food stores....and we're Asian). Didn't even know you could buy frozen broccoli until college, and first learned about tater tot casserole on tv.

 

Thats all I can think of right now...

 

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Ooooh this looks like fun! Ok, here's mine: 
 
Fundie: 
- I am an active member of my conservative Christian church (NOT IFB, just for the record)
- I read my Bible and study theology for fun (yes I am one of those) 
- I fully believe in complementarian headship/submission (but none of that doormat/slave version fundies advocate)
- I love a good bargain, and rarely pay full-price for anything 
- I have never smoked or done drugs 
- I don't curse 
- I actually LOVE flip-flops (but don't wear them all the time, because appropriate footwear for the activity is important) 
- I currently live at home with my parents since I am single, and currently have no plans to move out in the near future 
- I preferred skirts-only at one point in my life (minus pajamas and workout clothes)
- I don't necessarily have anything against homeschooling, as long as it's done correctly and children get a well-rounded educational foundation for later 
- We only buy used cars in my family (my current car is 16 years old) 
- I grew up wearing hand-me-downs and generic (non-brand name) shoes
 
NON-Fundie: 
- I don't like the KJV translation and believe that ESV and NASB are vastly superior and more accurate to the original language(s)
- I love my leggings and yoga pants 
- I adore live theatre, and I don't believe there's any show currently on Broadway that fundies would approve of. In addition, my favorite genre of music is showtunes.
- I went to "evil" public school, then went on to college and grad school (albeit private Christian university, but still considered a more liberal one by rival schools) 
- Although I still live with my parents, I am NOT a SAHD, nor would I ever advocate for that. I firmly believe that young women need to be able to support themselves, or at least cultivate the skills to be able to. Furthermore, they should know how to properly and appropriately interact with the rest of society.
- I watch The Office, Friends, SNL, etc. 
- I don't shop at thrift stores (plus we don't have any good ones here). I'd rather pay more for something that fits me correctly and is well-made than try to take the crap in my local thrift stores and try to make it work.
- I probably definitely spend way more than most people on basic necessities/toiletries/make-up due to skin sensitivity and trying to be a conscientious consumer (but still rarely pay full-price).
- If I ever get engaged, I would expect my fiancé to ask my parents for their permission/blessing, but not to date/court me.
- I HATE MLMs!!!!
- I believe that being a SAHM or SAHW is a valid CHOICE, but not the ONLY path of godliness. 
- I don't think dates with a significant other need to be chaperoned. If you have so little self-control that you need someone physically there to hold you accountable while you hang out at Starbucks, you have bigger issues to deal with. 
- I grew up eating mostly fresh produce and meats, and not much processed food (mostly because I grew up a coastal city with tons of produce markets and ethnic food stores....and we're Asian). Didn't even know you could buy frozen broccoli until college, and first learned about tater tot casserole on tv.
 
Thats all I can think of right now...
 


I am curious about your idea of complementarianism and submission without any superior to subordinate dynamic.

First of all, quite frankly, any notion you have of how to achieve a healthy marriage as a single person is completely theoretical. Every two people together are different and what works for one couple won't work for another. Just look at the various splits in housekeeping cited in this thread for an example.

Secondly, I've heard your position stated a thousand times in those very words. Guess what those people's marriages actually look like and function as? Egalitarian marriages.

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Fundie:

- was homeschooled 

- loves to garden

- loves to can

- loves all things farming/homesteading/tasteful frugal/sensible prepping

- part time SAHW

- After several years of working as a birth assistant I love the idea and practice of more natural births and hope to have a home or birth center birth one day. 

- would like kids, but only 2

- if said kids happen then we plan to homeschool but in a drastically different way

- love to knit, crochet and spin

- love my KJV and it's my primary version for reading

- can play multiple instruments

- was a virgin at marriage 

 

Non fundie:

- egalitarian marriage

- supports women in ministry

- work part time

- Sad abortion happens but don't want to ban it. Support a women's right to make a choice. Support it in cases of rape, incest, mother's life in danger, deformed baby, etc

- all for birth control of all forms.

- Understand that people are born indeed wired toward SSA. and tired of the spazzing  about gay marriage. Can't control what consenting adults do so just LET IT BE. 

- does not believe life begins at conception.

- do not want a houseful of kids

- love working to help my husband.

- i hate cooking and cleaning but do a lot of it because Mr EW's job keeps him so exhausted.

- spanking will never be a first resort in our parenting

- Mr EW helps me a lot around the house and I let him, even though I still feel guilty about it

- I love my NASB version of the bible and others as well though the ESV is definitely bent toward the patriarchy and I despise a lot of the reformed people on the translation board. 

- love pants

there is probably more but I have to get back to work now. 

 

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54 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

 


I am curious about your idea of complementarianism and submission without any superior to subordinate dynamic.

First of all, quite frankly, any notion you have of how to achieve a healthy marriage as a single person is completely theoretical. Every two people together are different and what works for one couple won't work for another. Just look at the various splits in housekeeping cited in this thread for an example.

Secondly, I've heard your position stated a thousand times in those very words. Guess what those people's marriages actually look like and function as? Egalitarian marriages.
 

 

Oh, don't worry, I know that if I ever get married that most, if not all of my beliefs regarding how marriage works will be challenged in some way, but I still believe that complementarian marriages work. Let me preface this with the acknowledgement that the complementarianism/egalitarianism divide is NOT a salvific issue, and therefore we can always agree to disagree :my_biggrin: Also, my reply is going to be based on the assumption that both spouses are believers. Now, I never said there wasn't a "superior/subordinate" dynamic, just that it wasn't the way fundies always describe it to be where the wife submits her whole personality and being and seems to just become a robot slave to her husband's whims. My convictions about complemenatarian marriage in practice probably do resemble much of an egalitarian marriage: no gender lines about chores, major decisions should always be discussed, etc. However, I do believe that God has placed the husband as the servant-leader of the household, and the wife as his helpmeet. This doesn't mean the wife has no input or never takes the lead on a project/activity; rather, since the husband is called to sacrifically lead his wife/family and will ultimately held to a higher accountability before the Lord as the head (in the way a CO is responsible for his troops), he has the responsibility of making the final decision, after considering his wife's counsel and what would be best for their family. I believe that the primary spiritual leading is to be done by the husband, and he is supposed to guide the household in spiritual matters (setting the tone for and leading family devotions, prayer time, etc.). Note that I  said primary, not all. This does not negate individual responsibility of each member for their own relationships with the Lord, nor is it to be used to control and dictate every move of a wife/child. At the same time, a wife's role as helpmeet is to submit to and support her husband's leadership, which at some times can mean giving a different perspective on a subject to help him make a more informed decision, reminding him of a biblical truth when he is in sin, or making sure there is a plan in place for Sunday morning breakfast so they get to get to church on time. It also means there may be occasions where she might not agree fully with her husband's final decision, but she submits to it because she trusts that he is making it in light of pursuing godliness and in the best interest of their family. There is also no "enforcing" a wife's submission or "disciplining" her as if she were a child. A wife voluntarily chooses to submit to her husband's leadership, she shouldn't bullied or guilted into it. If either spouse has actually sinned against the other, there are clear protocols outlined Matthew 18, NONE of which include personally disciplining the other person (sorry, MRA pet-peeve), and by God's grace they won't need to go past step one. I agree with you that the executions of these roles will look different in each marriage relationship, due to differing personalities, strengths, and life situations, and can change over time. However, I still believe in the complementarian model. 

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What are these decisions that are so difficult that they can never be made together? What do you think those will be? How often do you think those kinds of decisions come up? Or is it every household decision?

I've heard this all before. Your entire explanation.

Here is one reality dose: in 8 years of marriage which has included three job losses between us, my father's terminal illness and death which meant caregiving responsibilities for me, and a myriad of other problems--husband and I have never had an issue making a major decision together. Additionally, many decisions have greatly impacted one of us more than the other. It is not my right to tell him which job to take when the choices are equal. And if you can agree with that, why can you not agree that that goes both ways and he doesn't get to make the same choice for me? No matter how many big theological words you apply to it, your real answer is patriarchy. Nothing else.

My marriage, like most has two adults. We have strengths and weaknesses. Even in terms of spirituality. Your system reduces women in a myriad of ways. It reduces their agency. It denies them the freedom to use their gifts. Absolutely nowhere in scripture does it say women are to subordinate their spiritual gifts to spouses or anyone else. We are also taught that all are made in the image of God, not some second to others because of their gender. As an image bearer, as an adult, as a Christian with spirit given gifts, I can make a decision as well as my husband can. I can certainly make a decision WITH him rather than passively waiting for him to hand one down. To say I cannot is to reduce me from a Christian adult made in God's image endowed with the gifts of the Holy Spirit to a child with none of those things.

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You asked what I believe and why, and I gave you my answer. I don't doubt you've heard all of it before, but you wanted to know specifically what complementarian meant to me so I wrote what my convictions are; I never claimed they would be revolutionary. I didn't say anything about husbands being the sole decision makers about jobs, chores, bank accounts, etc., only that since they bear the responsibility of leading the spiritual direction of the household, they should be the primary overseers of spiritual matters (i.e. family devotions, prayer times, and such). Nor did I say anything about subordinating spiritual gifts, not using them, or passively waiting for a husband to pass down a decision. I also stated that yes, life situations and personalities mean each marriage looks different and can look different over time. The complementarian model is just that, a model. It's not a one-size-fits-all-there's-only-one-way-to-do-everything machine where everything comes out looking cookie-cutter identical. That would take away from the individuality God has given each of us. There is a fine line between complementarianiam (which is definitely patriarchal) and the type of fundie patriarchy we discuss with disdain on these forums, but if believing that the husband bears the responsibility of being the spiritual leader makes me part of the patriarchy in your eyes, then so be it. 

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5 hours ago, Showtunesgirl said:

You asked what I believe and why, and I gave you my answer. I don't doubt you've heard all of it before, but you wanted to know specifically what complementarian meant to me so I wrote what my convictions are; I never claimed they would be revolutionary. I didn't say anything about husbands being the sole decision makers about jobs, chores, bank accounts, etc., only that since they bear the responsibility of leading the spiritual direction of the household, they should be the primary overseers of spiritual matters (i.e. family devotions, prayer times, and such). Nor did I say anything about subordinating spiritual gifts, not using them, or passively waiting for a husband to pass down a decision. I also stated that yes, life situations and personalities mean each marriage looks different and can look different over time. The complementarian model is just that, a model. It's not a one-size-fits-all-there's-only-one-way-to-do-everything machine where everything comes out looking cookie-cutter identical. That would take away from the individuality God has given each of us. There is a fine line between complementarianiam (which is definitely patriarchal) and the type of fundie patriarchy we discuss with disdain on these forums, but if believing that the husband bears the responsibility of being the spiritual leader makes me part of the patriarchy in your eyes, then so be it. 

Any decision can be deemed spiritual. Your future spouse could decide that your children must court rather than date and declare it a spiritual decision. How do you even narrow down what is a spiritual and non-spiritual decision? And, again, how often do you think all these decisions must be made? Marriage is not like running a business. You aren't sitting around making life changing decisions, spiritual or otherwise, on a daily basis. Most people I know, husband and I included, are just spending every day trying to get by and get stuff done and spend some time together. What I have seen in the relationship of a very close friend is that all this "the man must be the spiritual leader" stuff can become a big (unnecessary) struggle. Struggle for them because it is not in his nature to lead and teach--teaching faith to their kids comes easier to her but they spent years trying to reverse that to the detriment of both of them and the kids. Struggle because it took them ten years to figure out that it was okay that he wasn't exercising all of these God given decision making rights because most days go by with no chance to "lead"--and, oh, no, were they doing marriage wrong? Maybe he should lead in everything. Maybe he should decide everything so he could "lead" (because penis). Somewhere around ten years, they saved themselves from all this trouble by deciding to live life instead of obsess over who was in charge. 

As to spiritual gifts, what if a man has the gifts of mercy and serving and his wife has the gifts of teaching, exhortation and leadership (gifts found in the book of Romans). How would it make sense for that man to lead family devotions? He is supposed to do something he is not gifted to do while his wife is not supposed to do something she is gifted to do all because he happens to have a penis? In that scenario (probably not an uncommon one), a woman is indeed being expected to not use her God given gifts in the name of submission. There can be many others. 

Nowhere in scripture is submission narrowly defined as man tells wife when to pray, by the way. It isn't there. You (and many other people) are defining it down to something you think you can live with. I would tell anyone playing that game that you would be better off freeing yourselves from it entirely because it is not the be all and end all of being a Christian. It is a cultural artifact of the time scripture was written and many, many other passages contradict those which address submission. Paul teaches elsewhere that we are neither male nor female in Christ. By determining that a husband must tell you how to govern your spiritual life, you are making males superior in spirituality. That is not possible when we are neither male nor female in Christ. If sex does not matter, then men (husbands or otherwise) are not called to govern the spiritual lives of women. We are not held accountable to how someone else practices or does not practice their faith. Not our spouses, not our children. We are accountable for our own. If I stop going to church (a serious matter in my denomination), I am accountable for that, not my husband. He is, likewise, accountable for himself only. You say that you don't agree with the notion that men are responsible for their wives' salvation but then you say that a man is responsible for his wife's spiritual practice. That is a very blurry line--if someone is responsible for someone else's spiritual practice, how has he not placed that person's salvation in his own hands? If that person agrees that he is responsible, how has she not placed her salvation in his hands? Each individual is going to be accountable to God for themselves, obviously, but the practice of a man being the "leader" for the spiritual life of his wife and children is not implying to the wife or teaching the children that they are accountable. 

 

 

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I can get behind the literal meaning of complementary...

Definition of complementary

1:  relating to or constituting one of a pair of contrasting colors that produce a neutral color when combined in suitable proportions

2:  serving to fill out or complete… their economies are more complementary than competitive … — William Petersen

3:  mutually supplying each other's lack… the complementary relationship that binds the two. — Colin S. Gray

4:  being complements of each other complementary acute angles

5:  characterized by the capacity for precise pairing of purine and pyrimidine bases between strands of DNA and sometimes RNA such that the structure of one strand determines the other

from: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/complementary

 

the way I see it...definition #3 is what my marriage is...each of us has strengths and weaknesses...my strengths are where he's weak (planning, finances) and his strengths are where I'm weak (organization, housework)...and that's why we work. I NEVER understood it to mean that someone is less than the other...but that's just the mark of cults...redefine words to sound good but not mean the dictionary definition...

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5 hours ago, feministxtian said:

I can get behind the literal meaning of complementary...

Definition of complementary

1:  relating to or constituting one of a pair of contrasting colors that produce a neutral color when combined in suitable proportions

2:  serving to fill out or complete… their economies are more complementary than competitive … — William Petersen

3:  mutually supplying each other's lack… the complementary relationship that binds the two. — Colin S. Gray

4:  being complements of each other complementary acute angles

5:  characterized by the capacity for precise pairing of purine and pyrimidine bases between strands of DNA and sometimes RNA such that the structure of one strand determines the other

from: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/complementary

 

the way I see it...definition #3 is what my marriage is...each of us has strengths and weaknesses...my strengths are where he's weak (planning, finances) and his strengths are where I'm weak (organization, housework)...and that's why we work. I NEVER understood it to mean that someone is less than the other...but that's just the mark of cults...redefine words to sound good but not mean the dictionary definition...

Definition number three is awesome. That is how our marriage works as well. 

I think the submission crowd hijacked the word "complementary" to make it sound more appealing. But they really do mean submission. Even if, like above, they only apply it to one area, it is still not being complementary. 

My husband and I have complementary strengths and weaknesses when it comes to our faith as well. I have all the "book" knowledge. I went to Catholic school and had to  learn the Catechism and take tests on it. I had to learn it all again when I converted eight years ago and took RCIA classes. But as a convert, there is much I have had to learn about our faith in practice. He is a cradle Catholic and knows those things even though he sometimes doesn't know or recall all the theology. Our first Palm Sunday after we got married, I didn't know that you are supposed to keep the palms. I have been to one Good Friday service in my life--if we went, I would have to follow his lead for how to do things. If we had had children, I would be the one that could teach them the Catechism. He would be the one that could inculcate in them a love of the practice of the faith because he knows that, it is part of the core of his being in a way that can only come from being born and raised in it. We are going to his cousin's First Communion tomorrow. I have never been to a First Communion. I didn't know what to get for a gift or what kind of celebration there will be. I can't relate to the experience of the confirmation kids we teach in the same way he can. The conversion process for adults is way different than receiving those sacraments as you grow up. We use those strengths and weaknesses in how we teach our Confirmation kids. We don't assume that he simply has to do all the teaching because men are "spiritual leaders" and women are not. 

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Fundie:
- I prefer loose clothes and I like to be covered. I'll pick a long dress over shorts in warm weather.
- Long hair, don't care
- In terms of chores, I handle the inside of the house, fiancé handles the outside of the house.
- Avid knitter.
- We live debt free (that would change if we buy a house unless we won the lottery because houses here are so flippin' expensive).

Non-Fundie:
- Politically liberal, feminist, hugely pro-choice
- Currently living in sin and would not marry without having lived with the person first.
- I work outside the home.
- Public school from day one through college, and I have more than one degree.
- Not a virgin, not that into the idea of marriage except that my health insurance is too good not to share. We have chosen not to have children.
- We determine our goals for our household and our lives together.
- I specifically told my fiancé that it was not ok for him to ask for my father's blessing before we get married (fiancé is from the Midwest and surprisingly traditional about some things). I'll be keeping my last name when we marry.
- I drink.


Side note: I did grow up in a fundie light environment, but it didn't stick past my teens. Most of the hard hitting fundie stuff I remember had to do with sex, relationships, and gender roles, and only recently did I start to understand how much of that I had internalized. I'm still working on being cognisant of my gut reaction to some of the situations I encounter in my own relationship and in normal life with respect to some of these issues.

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Fundie: 

- In winter, I wear dresses with tights, boots and cardis. 

- I'm a SAHM

- There's a hearty beef casserole on the menu once a week

- I bake my own soda bread daily, and Jill Duggar would be proud of my banana bread

- I shop for fruit and veg at my local farmer's market

- I brag about my perfect children (Because all children are perfect)

- I have gone against my extended family to do my own thing, and live how I see fit

- I do the bulk of the housework

 

Non Fundie:

- Those dresses can sometimes have defrauding neck and hemlines

- I'm a born, bred and buttered Pagan, like my Grandmother and her mother before her. 

- I feel at peace in old churches filled with idolatry and symbols

- I went to university 

- I only have two children, by choice, both daughters who will also go to uni

- I make 99% of the family and household decisions as my husband works in mainland Europe

- I can "f and blind" for Ireland

- I drink alcohol and smoke an occasional joint

- I had multiple sexual partners before marriage

- I'm pro choice, pro birth control, and pro equality

- I have been known to refuse both sex and making him a sandwich

- I have a tattoo and a downstairs piercing

- I will tell a man to go and have a good shite for himself, if he's annoying me

 

 

I'm sure there's more I could add to both lists, but you get the general jist of things. I'd also like to point out, that I enjoy and willingly undertake all my fundie duties, and that I look shit hot in a dress and boots

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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ShadowCat, lol at "I have been know to refuse him both sex and making him a sandwich." I shall quote this as often as I can! It can be my new motto. Maybe put it on a tee shirt? Or embroidered on a pillow?

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