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Breeding Like Bunnies: Upcoming Babies 7


Bethella

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7 hours ago, VBOY9977 said:

Looks like Ruth Wissman had her baby! I like the name

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I'm surprised they didn't go with a biblical first name. Maybe Lee is named after a relative. Personally I find Lee a little dated and so bland it's almost a non-name, but I suppose it could a lot worse and James is a handsome middle name.

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I bet Lee is named after a relative. Lee is an extremely common middle name and it used to be a somewhat common first name. James Lee wouldn't surprise me in the least. But yes, Lee James is not a common name these days. 

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Reading the comments on Bonnie's "no sex" blogs is pretty tragic.  She talks about how NFP methods just don't work, so they have to be abstinent, and it breaks her heart...  and the comments are all "you aren't doing it right! Try the creighton method!  I know you'd said it doesn't work for you, but you're just not doing it right!" which feels like the commenters just have no reading comprehension...

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1 hour ago, Lurky said:

Reading the comments on Bonnie's "no sex" blogs is pretty tragic.  She talks about how NFP methods just don't work, so they have to be abstinent, and it breaks her heart...  and the comments are all "you aren't doing it right! Try the creighton method!  I know you'd said it doesn't work for you, but you're just not doing it right!" which feels like the commenters just have no reading comprehension...

There's actually a doctor at my OBGYN office that will teach classes on NFP to his clients. I think Bonnie could try something like that out but it still might not work. 

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NFP (or its secular twin, FAM) can be fantastic and can work wonderfully for some people. And for others, it can be utterly useless. It's not the perfect, simple, magnificent answer to family planning these obsessive 'More Catholic than the Pope' types make it out to be. 

I actually practice FAM. I use it to track my cycles and feel like I'm in better touch with my body. For that, it's great. I always know exactly when my period is about to start. I would happily use it to supplement another form of birth control, but even though I have a very regular cycle and ovulate in a clear pattern every single month, I would never trust it on its own. Like I said, for some people it's great and it really does work. But it's not magic. Some people can't use hormonal birth control, or IUDs, or condoms - but most people can switch to a different method if one doesn't work for them. For people like Bonnie, it's NFP or bust. If NFP doesn't work for you, you're shit out of luck.

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On 23.6.2017 at 11:01 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

This may sound crass but if she can try to do NFP, why can't he pull out? 

 

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11 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

There's actually a doctor at my OBGYN office that will teach classes on NFP to his clients. I think Bonnie could try something like that out but it still might not work. 

In the comments under one of her "no sex" posts, she talks about how she had some really bad experiences with Creighton Method teachers and NFP advocates in real life, who made her feel like she was stupid because it didn't work for her, and that her kids were mistakes etc etc.  I really do get the impression she's tried everything, but her body isn't suitable for NFP/FAM.  Her "how will we survive months and months of not having sex" posts are really heartbreaking to me

http://www.aknottedlife.com/2012/04/no-sex-for-months.html

http://www.aknottedlife.com/2013/02/kids-are-great-and-no-sex-for-months.html

The silver lining of her difficult life is that at least as Catholics, unlike the Quiverfull Fundies, they value their children's education, and are sending them to school, so Bonnie doesn't have to struggle through Homeschooling along with everything else she's finding hard.  I loved this post where she's talking about using the libraries, reading programmes & things like that - she clearly loves her kids and wants the best for them, but wow, her life is hard.

http://www.aknottedlife.com/2015/10/financial-hardships-surprise_21.html

ETA here's where she talks about NFP people in real life:

Quote

Fourth:  The other response that surprised me to the "no sex" post was how many people promoted Creighton to me. I have a lot of respect and appreciation for Dr. Hilgers, the Pope Paul VI Institute, NaProTechnology, etc. but personally I have had some really unfortunate conversations with Creighton people in my area.  The comments they've made to me - some more offensive and hurtful than what I've gotten from pro-contraception/small family people - have really turned me off from ever wanting to learn their method of nfp. It was refreshing to have people recommend Creighton to me in a way that didn't insult my intelligence, mock my marriage bed, or belittle my children's existences. So thank you for that!

http://www.aknottedlife.com/2012/04/so-we-all-in-this-together.html

 

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That's so sad. I imagine any priest would tell her condoms are ok in this type of situation. Maybe I'm wrong. 

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35 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

That's so sad. I imagine any priest would tell her condoms are ok in this type of situation. Maybe I'm wrong. 

Nope, not any priest. And these women tend to be absolutely scandalized by priests that will tell them birth control is okay. I always found this funny, as their entire religious system is based upon authority and hierarchy, and yet their priests are wrong and they're right. (Obviously I believe priests can be wrong, but I'm not a fundie Catholic.)

Their religion is entirely based on following a strict set of rules. If they chose to deviate from those rules, their religion would crumble around them. I'm not talking about Catholicism in general, but about their interpretation of it. There's no room for nuance. If they relent and use birth control, they're no longer perfect Catholics. If they're no longer perfect Catholics, what are they?

I think it's especially an issue for the older women like Bonnie* who have been married longer and have several kids already. It's like they have to cling to hardcore Catholicism or else they're admitting that their lives might have gone differently, they might have been happier, and that might have been okay, and that's terrifying for them. They don't want to believe that following this strict and unforgiving religion was a mistake, so they just cling tighter to it.

*I mean 'older' as compared to, say, zealous unmarried 20-year-olds.

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24 minutes ago, Mela99 said:

Isn't it also a sin to not have sex? 

Don't think so. This is where conservative Catholic teachings deviate from the Quiverfull ideology. Catholics are not under any onus to have as many children as possible, they just can't use contraception (which as a side effect, often results in many children...) I also believe (but am not positive) that even Trad Catholics allow for a bit more autonomy for the wife sexually, and she does not have to be joyfully available to her husband at all times. 

So yes, they could just remain abstinent, though that doesn't seem to be working for them. I mean, I guess it's sort of nice that after ten years of marriage and six kids they still can't keep their hands off each other?

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2 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Nope, not any priest. And these women tend to be absolutely scandalized by priests that will tell them birth control is okay.

...

It's like they have to cling to hardcore Catholicism or else they're admitting that their lives might have gone differently, they might have been happier, and that might have been okay, and that's terrifying for them. They don't want to believe that following this strict and unforgiving religion was a mistake, so they just cling tighter to it.

Yes, I love that "No True Scotsman" approach to priests. They can't use contraception because priests say so, but if a priest says they can use condoms (or a bishop were to give a special dispensation) then he's not a "real" priest. 

And completely agree on your second point. Bonnie can't back down now. She's six kids in, and even with all of her obvious doubts, admitting contraception might not be the Catholic hill to die on requires her to eat way too much crow. I also think she has massive amounts of guilt at what she can't provide all that much for her kids, and so she has to tell herself that she is saving her (and their) eternal souls by continually adding children when her existing kids have to eat crappy starch heavy diets and can't do any extracurricular activities or go on vacation. (Not that I think her kids sound like they have that terrible of childhoods; but Bonnie has made it clear it really makes her sad to see pictures of other families at Disney World. If anything, I think their mother continually being stressed and unhappy is the biggest negative for them.)

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Could she be sad about seeing the Disney pictures because deep down she is jealous that she can't afford to take her kids on vacation to Disney. 

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32 minutes ago, Jana814 said:

Could she be sad about seeing the Disney pictures because deep down she is jealous that she can't afford to take her kids on vacation to Disney. 

I'm in my early 40's and I've never been to Disney. Most people have never been to Disney and they've been leading productive and fulfilling lives. I don't think Bonnie's jealous, I think she's sad that she can't provide all those extras for her children. I know she wants to be the "perfect" Catholic. I get that. But until she and her husband come to the realization that using birth control doesn't make you a bad Catholic, she will be caught in this cycle of feeling sad that she can't give her children all the extras other people provide to their smaller families. I urge her to realize that Facebook is the "highlight reel" of people's lives. She doesn't see all the tears and meltdowns kids are having at Disney. Or how they don't like standing in line, or how much money was spent on drinks alone just to keep the kids hydrated. Sure, they took their kids to Disney but how much fun was really had? How much of it will they remember? Especially for any children under the age of 8? It's a lot of walking and waiting... plus it's overpriced. 

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That "financial hardships" post drives me nuts. She repeats the same dumb line about why people choose not to have a billion kids:

Quote

I know there are families out there who could welcome more children into their homes if they were willing to move some money around in their monthly budgets and forego some of their creature comforts: yearly vacations, gym / zoo / pool / museum memberships, shiny new vehicles, homes with rooms that are only walked through.

Because what does she think, that EVERYONE except her and her super-catholic fertility club is rolling in dough? The financial situation she  describes in the rest of the post sounds almost exactly like my own upbringing, but we were a family of 4.

And the stuff my parents did choose to spend money on is stuff I'm really grateful for: extracurricular activities like debate and art lessons and scouting, books, visits to family scattered around the country. Those are valuable things that a lot of mega-family kids get denied, and it's really shitty to lump them in with frivolous "creature comforts."

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This is why I have no use for religion of any kind. It is not up to a priest or anyone else to tell me how many children to have and whether or not I can use birth control. 

Her examples of creature comforts that can be cut show a clear division between her and others. People who have museum/gym/zoo memberships have them for reasons, not just as a place to toss their money. The kids they do have are getting experiences when they go to the museum & zoo. The  thinking brain that isn't controlled by religious dogma knows that to give up said memberships to pop out another kid and then have those kids home all the time with no experiences or social/cultural education is not exactly a charmed life for said kid. Or parents.

Nor is there anything wrong with vacations or shiny new vehicles or homes with rooms you only walk through if you can afford it and your life is enhanced by it. 

It think most fundies who use such examples are jealous as hell that they can't do anything because they have so many kids. So, they name everyone else and their choices as bad/selfish/blah/blah/blah. 

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I think Zoo Anderson is clinging to minimalism because it's easier to tell yourself you're a minimalist and not that you can't afford much extra for your kids. 

Plus her house is bursting at the seams with her family of 11 and she is trying to figure out how to make it manageable because they can't afford a bigger house. 

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For Zoo, it would be far more manageable if they didn't insist on separate bedrooms for her and PP. That extra bedroom could be used for all sorts of things. If PP needs privacy to "work" he can go to his "church". 

Reading through Bonnie's blog, she was miserable with her first baby. That is a woman that was not made to have a ton of kids. I used to think I wanted 4 kids, but after my first I realized that was not going to happen. I have two now, and I'm 90% sure I'm done - and frankly if I do have another it won't be for several years. I recognize my limits.

The saddest part about Bonnie is that she also recognizes her limits but refuses to do anything about it. 

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I have a friend who right now has 2 kids (twins). She really wants a 3rd for reason that I rather not say on a public forum.  I don't think it's a good idea. I understand her reasoning for a 3rd but I don't think it's a good idea. 

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2 hours ago, fundiefan said:

Nor is there anything wrong with vacations or shiny new vehicles or homes with rooms you only walk through if you can afford it and your life is enhanced by it. 

It think most fundies who use such examples are jealous as hell that they can't do anything because they have so many kids. So, they name everyone else and their choices as bad/selfish/blah/blah/blah. 

Her judginess in that post drives me crazy (and it's even worse in the comments). I hardly think zoo or museum memberships, vacations to visit family, or 529s for your kids is all that materialistic. And even if the wife works so they can have Disney cruises or a Lexus (or just because the wife enjoys working), what the hell is it Bonnie's business?

Like, I'm judgy as hell, and I still don't care. Some people like some more expensive things/experiences, and if they're willing to work more for them, more power to them.

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Sarah Girotti ( not sure of her married name ) and her husband had their second child, Matthew in early June. Call me crazy but when my first child was SUPER premature,  currentlyhas a feeding tube  along with some other needs ( it appears) and, more than likely had medical bills that were astronomical, etc.... having a second one right away wouldn't be on my list of priorities. I know I am bitchy but these fundies never cease to amaze me.  I sure hope he has a regular job with evil health insurance..... Just checked their blog, Andrew was born April 23 of last year making their children not even 14 months apart.

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13 minutes ago, teachergirl said:

Sarah Girotti ( not sure of her married name )

Her last name is Husulandorf. 

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The saddest thing to me about Bonnie's blog was that she said her penultimate birth was the only one where she didn't have Post Partum Depression.  I'm really glad she gets and advocates treatment, but no wonder when she keeps accidentally getting pregnant, she's so scared about it, as 6 kids under 8 (or whatever) would be overwhelming anyway, but her births are hard and she gets PPD... and then once she's over that, she's pregnant again.  The worst part is all her guilt over feeling she's not being the best mother to her kid - at least it seem Travis does a lot of hands-on childcare, so she's not effectively alone with it - and at least the older kids go to school.

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I, as a german, personally have a hard time understanding the deep, often times holier than thou (ok that one, we have too but in a different way) religiousness in America.

Over here the protestant church is the more lenient and modern of the two main christian religions we have (protestant and catholic) but even though I live in a federal state where the population is 55 % catholic I have never seen large families like this or at least not necessarily because of religious reasons. Uber catholic people will be against homosexuals (what else is new ... :( ), abortion and generally sometimes against and afraid of change and lets not talk about church led social institutions (church only slaps their name on, state supports them with more money than the state led ones and the church makes the rules -_-)

But not even deep catholics generally have more than 2-3 children (so...normal) and noone would sacrifice their sanity or health for religion. Praying over everything and taking the bible literally (or even knowing it by heart) is very unusual here. I guess I just do not understand the need to sacrifice and hurt yourself to please god who (by my limited understanding) would not even want you to suffer? And this goes for the whole of Europe, large families and no birth control are almost unheard of....poor Bonnie but I agree, it is somewhat her own fault too. Still, it is a mess

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