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Counting On: Season 3, Part 6: All Hail Rufus


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1 hour ago, amendgitan said:

It surprises me how many people on this site think there is much of a chance that any of these women are going to embrace any lifestyle significantly different from how they were raised. 

(snip)It's tragic to me, that they have no power over their own bodies or reproduction. But they don't. Not really. They would have to do something more radical than put on a pair of pants to convince me they are no longer embracing the Quiverfull philosophy with fanatic fervor.

lol ok i'm sorry if my post prompted you to express your complete dismissal of these women as human beings because of the way they were raised. 

i never professed to believe that Jinger was "freed". However, I do think the only contraceptive methods the Duggars have outright spoken against are the pill/condoms/artificial methods, and they say that they leave it "up to God". If Jeremy, for example, feels God is not calling them to raise children yet at this stage in life, Jinger knows how to track her reproductive cycles and would comply with that, whether she's happy about it or not. She could totally tell her sisters, "no i'm not pregnant, it's just not god's will for me to be a mother yet, and i accept that" because she's following Jeremy her spiritual headship.

 

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Jinger also isn't living under Duggar rules anymore, she's under the jurisdiction of her headship - Jeremy.

I would assume then that when and how many kids they have is up to him now, and he did come from a small family.

I think they should start with puppies as well.  I would TOTALLY watch a TV show called 19 Puppies and Counting.

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I'm not a big fan of the logic that the kidults might not be quiverfull because they're not on track to have families the size of the parent Duggars and Bateseses. The whole reason that those families are famous is because they're big even by quiverfull standards. I'm not a certified expert in anything, but I would even call their family sizes scientifically surprising.

Jessa's 2 under 2, Anna's 5 before 30 (and with the shittiest shithead partner), and Erin's several risky pregnancies all indicate a quiverfull intention and philosophy. Then, look at families like the S'Mortons, including Katie. I doubt any of the next generation will have 19 kids- but it's certainly not due to a lack of trying or belief. I fully suspect some will hit 12 or 15 blessings though (Jessa is right on track, and Sierra was until recently).

I can't believe I'm saying this, but at this point, my only vague hope is that JB's and Michelle's grandkids don't hit the triple-digits (although I think great-grandkids will make this confusing after a point).

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On 5/8/2017 at 2:45 PM, Tangy Bee said:

Hope there's massive backlash. Their "normal" is not everyone's normal. I had an aunt who was very blunt. Nothing was censored and she just didn't care. I loved her dearly, but I also avoided her.

I had a great aunt like that. She died in 2000 and her remarks still sting.

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2 hours ago, NakedKnees said:


Jessa's 2 under 2, Anna's 5 before 30 (and with the shittiest shithead partner), and Erin's several risky pregnancies all indicate a quiverfull intention and philosophy. Then, look at families like the S'Mortons, including Katie. I doubt any of the next generation will have 19 kids- but it's certainly not due to a lack of trying or belief. I fully suspect some will hit 12 or 15 blessings though (Jessa is right on track, and Sierra was until recently).

They might go the Sierra route though-- intend to have a busload of kids, but once they hit 5 or so, realize that kids are actually hard work and that money doesn't grow on trees. 

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30 minutes ago, Gillyweed said:

They might go the Sierra route though-- intend to have a busload of kids, but once they hit 5 or so, realize that kids are actually hard work and that money doesn't grow on trees. 

I think there's another factor at play with Sierra that wasn't with Michelle and Kelly Jo: having a glut of boys at the beginning, and no girls who can play sister-mom to the incoming newborns. Both Michelle and Kelly Jo could start handing newborns off to the sister-moms once Jana, Jill, and Jessa were around 6-10 years old (and the only boys in that age cohort were Josh and JD). Sierra's oldest girl is 2: four years (at least) until she can be relied upon as a sister-mom.

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4 hours ago, MsSaylor said:

Actually we dont know any/all of these couples will be quiverfull. The Duggar parents are but it doesnt seem to be something that everyone in their circles are required to do. I think the Dugs and Bates associate with plenty of non quiverfull people. I think this generation on Duggars and Bates will have MUCH smaller families than their parents did and that each couple will at least make some concious decisions about their family size.  We already have Jill with 18 months between pregnancies, Alyssa Bates flat out stating they were limiting their family size, and if Jinge isnt pregnant yet, thats like 7 months in. all the Duggar in laws come from small families except Ben but his isnt near Duggar size. I know people can be quiverfull and not have that many kids bc of fertility differences but i just dont get the feeling that many of these couples are keen on baby after baby without any type of intervention. I just dont see the evidence yet that they are. We cant know unless they address it somehow, like Alyssa did.  

Where in the world did Alyssa said that? She said she wants around 6, her husband says 8 but Kelly has said they're letting God decide that aspect.. she's certainly not using BC of any kind, she's been married for almost three years and already has two kids. 

We ALL want them to break free but that ain't happening, stop being so dellusional about the Bates and Duggar spawn.

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Right. Saying, "I think I'd really like around six kids" means next to nothing if you're thinking, "But no way am I using birth control because God's in charge of my womb."

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So, let's say the Duggerlings average 8 kids each. That's 152 extra people. I'm not including Tyler in this. Now while Josie, Jordyn and Jenni are adding to overpopulation, Mackynzie is also of an age to reproduce. That's another generation, and Izzy and Spud won't be far behind. The numbers are staggering, and that's if they only average 8 kids each. 

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47 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

So, let's say the Duggerlings average 8 kids each. That's 152 extra people. I'm not including Tyler in this. Now while Josie, Jordyn and Jenni are adding to overpopulation, Mackynzie is also of an age to reproduce. That's another generation, and Izzy and Spud won't be far behind. The numbers are staggering, and that's if they only average 8 kids each. 

My uncle said to me today, when I was asking him some genealogy questions, "We don't have a family tree, we have a forest." The Duggars truly do have a forest. Although, my maternal grandmother had 13 living children, one died of SIDs. She wasn't doing too bad by fundie standards.  

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Alyssa said she only wants 6-8 kids and that she thinks thats all she can handle. I could be wrong, but i dont think she qualified it with "but we will take as many as god gives us". To me that indicates SOME kind of planning of family size. Yes its still a lot of kids and we dont know what they intend to do to only have 6-8 kids, but stating a number that you intend to have and doing anything to try to limit it to that-is not quiverfull. Kelly and Michelle were actively trying to have as many children as possible. I dont think the second generation will end up being quite as gung ho about it. Im just speculating that we will see different spacing patterns and couples maxing out at much smaller numbers. I think many couples in their circles, while they have larger than average families, are not balls to the wall quiverfull. Not saying they are leaving fundism just that they might not intrepret "as many as god gives us" the same way their parents did.

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The impression I got from Alyssa's comment about children was that she was OK with 6 - 8, and would then see how she feels about having more.

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Even if any of the couples decided to limit their fertility in one way or another, I can't imagine that they would ever admit it to the rest of the family, let alone publicly.  I'm guessing there will be a few who quietly decide to go their own way with birth control, but I think they'll keep it quiet for the sake of the brand.  If you're clever about spacing, you could get away with having as few as 4 kids and still have people mostly believe you when you chalk it up to God's will. 

The really shitty part about this entire thing is that fertility and family planning is nobody's business except for the couple's, but these parents have ruined any expectation of privacy just so they could promote their ministry make more money.

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11 hours ago, ihaveanexamintwodays said:

lol ok i'm sorry if my post prompted you to express your complete dismissal of these women as human beings because of the way they were raised. 

i never professed to believe that Jinger was "freed". However, I do think the only contraceptive methods the Duggars have outright spoken against are the pill/condoms/artificial methods, and they say that they leave it "up to God". If Jeremy, for example, feels God is not calling them to raise children yet at this stage in life, Jinger knows how to track her reproductive cycles and would comply with that, whether she's happy about it or not. She could totally tell her sisters, "no i'm not pregnant, it's just not god's will for me to be a mother yet, and i accept that" because she's following Jeremy her spiritual headship.

 

Nope. I don't dismiss these woman as human for their beliefs or for any reason at all. 

In fact, I think it is very human for a woman to be raised in an extremely isolating, repressive and controlling sect and not be able to break free from its tenets, especially when those tenets are drilled into their heads from birth to death. (My gosh, some of these women have quiverfull worked into their wedding vows!) 

I think it is quite human to be unable to leave the sect physically or psychologically or to be able to denounce its firmly ingrained teachings without particular character and fortitude. Especially when ones agency is specifically prevented from developing to begin with. 

The Duggar women have given zero indication that they've gone rogue. Even the pants don't demonstrate that. On the other hand they've given every reason to believe they're committed to the "cause". 

Baby making early and often is how status is conferred on women in their culture and while all of them may not achieve the doctorate in motherly martyrdom that Michelle has, they all appear to want that status and to have embraced their culture fully. 

Having never been taught critical thinking skills  and having been kept steadfastly away from other ideas and influences, renders these women crippled and unlikely to even contemplate another way. 

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The only thing I think that fits well into the theory of Alyssa being open to some sort of birth control/family planning is when Kelly Jo remarked that she was totally surprised about Alyssa being pregnant with her second because Alyssa had told Michael that she was planning on waiting to have her second (and I guess Michael tattled). Obviously that plan changed, for who knows what reason. It'll be interesting to see if/when her third comes. 

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38 minutes ago, mstee said:

The only thing I think that fits well into the theory of Alyssa being open to some sort of birth control/family planning is when Kelly Jo remarked that she was totally surprised about Alyssa being pregnant with her second because Alyssa had told Michael that she was planning on waiting to have her second (and I guess Michael tattled). Obviously that plan changed, for who knows what reason. It'll be interesting to see if/when her third comes. 

I'm of the opinion that a pattern can't truly be established until the third or fourth child. Only SmugAnna have reached that point - they seem to have an announcement every two or so years. As for the rest, we simply can't really know just yet what kind of pattern could be expected.

Yes, Alyssa has specifically mentioned six or eight. But, as I've said in the Bates threads, it's one thing to want something and another thing to take actions to make it happen. I honestly don't see them using birth control or condoms to prevent anything - they're both steeped in the Kool-Aid since childhood and that can be extremely difficult to overcome (if they even want to overcome it.) There are other methods that can be effective, but not nearly as effective or consistently effective as birth control or condoms are.

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12 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I'm of the opinion that a pattern can't truly be established until the third or fourth child. Only SmugAnna have reached that point - they seem to have an announcement every two or so years. As for the rest, we simply can't really know just yet what kind of pattern could be expected.

Yes, Alyssa has specifically mentioned six or eight. But, as I've said in the Bates threads, it's one thing to want something and another thing to take actions to make it happen. I honestly don't see them using birth control or condoms to prevent anything - they're both steeped in the Kool-Aid since childhood and that can be extremely difficult to overcome (if they even want to overcome it.) There are other methods that can be effective, but not nearly as effective or consistently effective as birth control or condoms are.

However, you can be religiously quiverful or really wanting lots of kids, and still reality can catch up with you. I wanted a larger family, but my pregnancies and births were very hard on me, and that has so far been sufficient motivation to hold off on more babies. Yesterday my friend told me how her quiverfull mum collapsed after her seventh child, and her religiosity had to give way to reality. She never fully recovered but managed to raise her quiver to adulthood, through extreme poverty too. My friend still deals with the scars of that hardship. I would be surprised if there were not at least a few Duggar/Bates kids who will find that against there believes and/ or wishes they they have to do (or not do) something to limit their quivers.

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On 4/14/2017 at 8:20 AM, purjolok84 said:

The scene where Austin asked Jim-Bob to court Joy and JB asks why Joy made me so sad ... (snip)

Austin's first's answer? 'She has a heart for the Lord.' Then says something Gothardy about her character. Then mentions her beauty, but as an afterthought, and as a whole, not even singling out anything, like her hair or her eyes. He could have spoken about any of the females in the Duggar family. This Christianese speak is just so cold and distancing. Just another way of making sure you never get to say 'I love you' before busybodies think you're ready.

He followed the standard, prescriptive format. Though we all know it's code for "I'm having impure thoughts and fear my fornicating brain so I need to lock down your daughter to avoid the hell fires".

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31 minutes ago, foreign fundie said:

However, you can be religiously quiverful or really wanting lots of kids, and still reality can catch up with you.

SNIP

I would be surprised if there were not at least a few Duggar/Bates kids who will find that against there believes and/ or wishes they they have to do (or not do) something to limit their quivers.

I know 2 separate families that were specifically "leaving it to God" to the number of children and both stopped at 4 as the reality of financially caring for the kids and moms sanity set in.  In one case the mom's health was the deciding factor, she nearly died while pregnant with #4 and they said that was God telling them to stop.  Unlike the Duggar's who just kept on, health of Michelle or baby be damned. 

I think Erin and Chad want a lot of kids but Erin won't be able to, at some point her doctors are going to tell her no more and that maybe with the next one or the one after. Not sure if M&B are having fertility or preventing but that is going to limit their numbers either by force or by choice.   I have mixed feelings on these, on 1 hand not being able to have kid when you want them sucks but no one family can properly care for 8-10+ kids, especially with their  level of education, or should I say lack of education. 

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I'm still convinced that when the Bates say "I want one or two! I want six! I want to wait a bit before getting pregnant again!" they just assume that God is going to give them exactly what they want regardless of any effort put in on their part, because the prosperity gospel is stronk with these people.

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After two miscarriages I went through all kinds of testing to try to find out why. I found out I have an inherited risk for clotting (Factor V) and have also tested positive once so far for antiphospholipid antibody syndrome (need one more positive to be officially diagnosed) (same condition as Erin Bates). I met with a hematologist and he did at one point ask me how many children we were planning on- I said 4 but now with all this new info I'm not so sure. He said even with the clotting disorders having 4 shouldn't be an issue. Personally, I'll have to decide after a full-term pregnancy if the daily injections are something I want to put myself through time and time again, but as long as I am monitored and properly anticoagulated, I at this point have no concern for limiting pregnancies. 

So anyway, since finding all this out I get a little edgy when people criticize Erin and make it sound like she is taking some fatal risk. As long as her doctors are okay with her plans then by all means she should have as many children as she wants (of course I would prefer they not have 19 and wish they weren't raising them in a cult). 

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1 hour ago, JesSky03 said:

Since finding all this out I get a little edgy when people criticize Erin and make it sound like she is taking some fatal risk. As long as her doctors are okay with her plans then by all means she should have as many children as she wants (of course I would prefer they not have 19 and wish they weren't raising them in a cult). 

It is good to hear that you shouldn't have any restrictions on the number of kids you want to have. I only know one woman who had this and she had to stop after 2 kids, but this was 17 years ago as well so I'm not 100% sure if treatment has gotten better or if she had other issues that made the doc say no more. 

I wasn't trying to criticize Erin and or Chad, I get the feeling they will stop when/if a doctor tells them too.  Chad seems a bit more reasonable than JB (not that that makes him a prize anywhere but fundy land)  it will depend on think on how baby hungry Erin gets. 

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6 hours ago, foreign fundie said:

However, you can be religiously quiverful or really wanting lots of kids, and still reality can catch up with you. I wanted a larger family, but my pregnancies and births were very hard on me, and that has so far been sufficient motivation to hold off on more babies.

<snip snip>

I would be surprised if there were not at least a few Duggar/Bates kids who will find that against there believes and/ or wishes they they have to do (or not do) something to limit their quivers.

I agree. But, again, its one thing to think it and another to take the actions necessary to make it happen. You took the steps you felt were necessary for your family's wellbeing and that's a great thing. The question for these married offspring is whether they are 1) willing and 2) able to find an approved method to do the same. The more steeped they are in the Kool-Aid the less options they'll feel are acceptable.

@JesSky03I think a lot of the comments about Erin come from a genuine place of concern and a misunderstanding about the condition. None of us want to see her two beautiful children grow up without a mother and its really good to hear that she hopefully won't be taking a life-threatening risk if she has more kids. 

That said, I know there was some sort of complication with Carson's birth, but not with Brooklyn's. I don't think it was related to her clotting disorder though. I want to say that there was an article stating she was at increased risk of bleeding out during childbirth as well (though, thankfully, that didn't happen and she was smart enough to have a hospital birth.) I think that might be what people are thinking of and where the concern comes from.

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Rufus question:

Jinger said that Rufus ascended to heaven on Spurgeon's birthday, right?  Am I remembering that correctly?  I just want to make sure I have the date correct to celebrate the holiday.

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