Joe and Kendra: Looking Forward to Side Hugs

[Carm_88]

3 minutes ago, Exposedknees said:

Pederasty in ancient times is very different than the way we think of pedophilia being predatory.  It was a cultural thing. I'm not discounting the sexual aspect of it but the older male was more of a mentor figure, initiating the boy into the world of "men."  Consent was implied , at least in the way I understand it. I doubt that many of the participants considered themselves "gay."  Sexuality was more fluid in some ways in that culture. I don't know if we can condemn it with the same conviction. 

That's my issue too. This was a large part of the Greek culture, as women were seen as lesser beings, having sex with a man gave you a higher status. Women were weaker and seen as less. It's more shocking that this second myth continues than the first, in my opinion. Pedophilia is never good but it's important to remember that this is history, it's not always sunshine and butterflies. We should learn from it and be better. 

[Exposedknees]

1 minute ago, Carm_88 said:

That's my issue too. This was a large part of the Greek culture, as women were seen as lesser beings,

You might enjoy the play Lysistrata by Aristophanes- Women take charge in that  

[Carm_88]

2 minutes ago, Exposedknees said:

You might enjoy the play Lysistrata by Aristophanes- Women take charge in that  

I loved it! We did it in Classics along with many other bits and pieces. Atlanta was one of my favourites as well!  

[HereticHick]

Sorry to break up the pederasty party, but do you think Kendra got to go the Big Sandy Family Conference this week?  Side-hugging beneath the Texas pines!

[Cleopatra7]

4 hours ago, Exposedknees said:

Pederasty in ancient times is very different than the way we think of pedophilia being predatory.  It was a cultural thing. I'm not discounting the sexual aspect of it but the older male was more of a mentor figure, initiating the boy into the world of "men."  Consent was implied , at least in the way I understand it. I doubt that many of the participants considered themselves "gay."  Sexuality was more fluid in some ways in that culture. I don't know if we can condemn it with the same conviction. 

Aside from the huge age gap, another problem with pederasty in classical Athens is that the boys weren't expected to enjoy themselves during sexual encounters with men. Both boys and adult women were considered essentially sexless in the sense that as the receptive parter, it was irrelevant whether they enjoyed themselves or not. The only thing that mattered was that the penetrating party was having a good time. I also wonder whether a boy had any say on whether he could reject an older lover or if he was "given" to some high ranking man like the Keller sisters were to their spouses and expected to put up with the situation for the sake of his future and his father's interests. I suppose there's no way of knowing, but it shows how the idea that everyone involved in a sexual encounter should be enthusiastically consenting and roughly equal in terms of power is such a new concept.

[Bethella]

On 4/26/2017 at 0:02 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

Kendra's mom is young I remember. But I wonder how long they were together before marriage. Were they high school sweethearts? That's what makes me wonder if they want Kendra to have a long enough courtship to really know Joe since she's so young and has plenty of time.

Paul was born about 1978, Christina about 1980. They became a couple in November 1994 (~16/14) and married in January 1998 (~19-20/17-18) and Kendra was born in August 1998.

[Casserole]

10 minutes ago, Bethella said:

Paul was born about 1978, Christina about 1980. They became a couple in November 1994 (~16/14) and married in January 1998 (~19-20/17-18) and Kendra was born in August 1998.

Soo was Kendra a month or two early or were they not so fundie back in the day?

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

1 minute ago, Casserole said:

Soo was Kendra a month or two early or were they not so fundie back in the day?

Wouldn't surprise me if they got married because Christina was pregnant. It happens all the time.

[Bethella]

Just now, Casserole said:

Soo was Kendra a month or two early or were they not so fundie back in the day?

I don't know

[JermajestyDuggar]

32 minutes ago, Bethella said:

Paul was born about 1978, Christina about 1980. They became a couple in November 1994 (~16/14) and married in January 1998 (~19-20/17-18) and Kendra was born in August 1998.

They must have been high school sweethearts. If she did get pregnant on their honeymoon, this is one of the issues of being super anti no sex before marriage. Because if you just happen to have big babies and go into labor early, people may question if you waited until your wedding day. 

[Dandruff]

Haven't the Duggars and Caldwells known each other for some time?  If so, that could shorten the courtship.

[Casserole]

1 hour ago, ihaveanexamintwodays said:

Wouldn't surprise me if they got married because Christina was pregnant. It happens all the time.

oh I know it's super common and I think nothing of it in 99.9% of relationships... but when you're going to be so religious, fundie, hateful, and horrible, while condemning anyone engaging in pre-marital sex to hell, no, I get to be judgmental about your shotgun wedding when you got your girlfriend pregnant. 

What assholes. (Unless they got married Jan. 1 and Kendra was born Aug. 31 or close to it. They're still hateful assholes though so I don't take it back.) 

[singsingsing]

That's how a lot of people turn fundie. They have some sort of mild 'sinful' past, like engaging in premarital sex with their long-term girlfriend/boyfriend. Then when a pregnancy results they feel shame and embarrassment and start looking for ways to make it right and redeem themselves. Basically the same thing happened with the Duggars and their supposed pill-induced miscarriage. They sinned (used birth control), believed something negative resulted, and turned to fundamentalism to make it all better.

[sawasdee]

Mary Renault's novel The Last of the Wine is an interesting look at Ancient Greek male relationships.

[2manyKidzzz]

@singsingsing A Mild Sinful Past.

This is quite brilliant.

[Greendoor]

On 4/27/2017 at 1:04 PM, Cleopatra7 said:

Aside from the huge age gap, another problem with pederasty in classical Athens is that the boys weren't expected to enjoy themselves during sexual encounters with men. Both boys and adult women were considered essentially sexless in the sense that as the receptive partner, it was irrelevant whether they enjoyed themselves or not. The only thing that mattered was that the penetrating party was having a good time. I also wonder whether a boy had any say on whether he could reject an older lover or if he was "given" to some high ranking man like the Keller sisters were to their spouses and expected to put up with the situation for the sake of his future and his father's interests. I suppose there's no way of knowing, but it shows how the idea that everyone involved in a sexual encounter should be enthusiastically consenting and roughly equal in terms of power is such a new concept.

This is essentially is why I think Paul spoke against it.

 

[singsingsing]

20 hours ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

@singsingsing A Mild Sinful Past.

This is quite brilliant.

Haha, I couldn't think of a better way to put it... I've just seen so many wide-eyes testimonies of someone being rescued by Jesus from their LIFE OF SIN which basically amounted to consensual premarital sex within a long-term committed relationship, social drinking, smoking a bit of pot, skipping school, talking back to parents, making prank phone calls, looking at porn, masturbating, jaywalking... you know, stuff the rest of the world wouldn't bat an eye at, but it lets the born again virgins score some 'badass' points and gives them some Christian street cred - "I left all that fun debauchery behind me for the sake of the gospel!!"

[Pukingpearl]

On 4/29/2017 at 8:08 AM, singsingsing said:

Haha, I couldn't think of a better way to put it... I've just seen so many wide-eyes testimonies of someone being rescued by Jesus from their LIFE OF SIN which basically amounted to consensual premarital sex within a long-term committed relationship, social drinking, smoking a bit of pot, skipping school, talking back to parents, making prank phone calls, looking at porn, masturbating, jaywalking... you know, stuff the rest of the world wouldn't bat an eye at, but it lets the born again virgins score some 'badass' points and gives them some Christian street cred - "I left all that fun debauchery behind me for the sake of the gospel!!"

I actually started to question my belief system as a teenager because I was frustrated with this issue. I had done all the right things according to but my church, but somehow it was more glorious and interesting to hear about people who had been so so bad turn to the church and be redeemed from their life of wine coolers and sex. 

[2manyKidzzz]

@Pukingpearl  Wine coolers are very defrauding, doncha know......

[lizzybee]

23 hours ago, Pukingpearl said:

life of wine coolers and sex. 

"My life of wine coolers and sex," an autobiography by Pukingpearl 

[Carm_88]

23 hours ago, Pukingpearl said:

I actually started to question my belief system as a teenager because I was frustrated with this issue. I had done all the right things according to but my church, but somehow it was more glorious and interesting to hear about people who had been so so bad turn to the church and be redeemed from their life of wine coolers and sex. 

If wine coolers are wrong, I don't want to be right. 

[Pukingpearl]

1 hour ago, lizzybee said:

"My life of wine coolers and sex," an autobiography by Pukingpearl 

Take out the word "cooler" and it wouldn't be too far off from my adult life.

[OyToTheVey]

On 4/27/2017 at 9:10 PM, Casserole said:

oh I know it's super common and I think nothing of it in 99.9% of relationships... but when you're going to be so religious, fundie, hateful, and horrible, while condemning anyone engaging in pre-marital sex to hell, no, I get to be judgmental about your shotgun wedding when you got your girlfriend pregnant. 

What assholes. (Unless they got married Jan. 1 and Kendra was born Aug. 31 or close to it. They're still hateful assholes though so I don't take it back.) 

Funny cuz my parents anniversary is very last Dec, practically New Years and my bday is the first week of August. And I was a preemie. Spent a while in the hospital. But I kinda doubt that Kendra was early. Mr and Mrs Fundie did the nasty in HS.

[Four is Enough]

11 minutes ago, OyToTheVey said:

Funny cuz my parents anniversary is very last Dec, practically New Years and my bday is the first week of August. And I was a preemie. Spent a while in the hospital. But I kinda doubt that Kendra was early. Mr and Mrs Fundie did the nasty in HS.

This. My mother was puking pregnant on New Years day the year I was born on August 2. I was perfectly on time.. she got pregnant say, mid November...

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

just out of curiosity.

Are there any good, well-identified pics of Kendra's sister Lauren? The photo on the Duggar fb page from Big Sandy with the "three little sheep and the big bad wolf" (*eyeroll*) has a blonde chick that possibly looks like Lauren, though i dunno if the Caldwells are at the conference...