Anna and the M Kids Pt 9: M5 Expected

[anotherone]

3 hours ago, bananabread said:

When I think about what Anna's life could have been like if she had married someone different...

Good chance exactly the same.

They all could be this way. We wouldn't have known any of this if not for a random event of Ashley M hacking.

[BackseatMom]

I think a lot of the "thank goodness its a boy" comments come not just because it is (slightly) better (but still not good by any stretch) to be a boy than a girl, but because the system depends on daughter labor. For example: will Jessa really pump out endless babies if she doesn't have a daughter soon to co-parent with her? It doesn't really work for the smuggars because they already have daughters - including a 7 year old, who I assume already has a baby assigned to her, or will in a few months.

[Million Children For Jesus]

Putting Josh on the show would be an affront to all sexual abuse survivors. What kind of message does that send? To both survivors and perpetrators? I feel the same way about the parents. I record the show, so I can fast forward through the parts with Jim Bob. He makes my skin crawl. He gives me the same feeling as when you finally get to see the demonic energy in one of those paranormal shows and the paranormal investigators tell the homeowner, "it's a dark spirit." Jim Bob and Michelle created the household dynamics that created Josh, and they refuse to acknowledge it or change it. They're easily just as bad, maybe worse than Josh. 

Are they still using ATI? Training the next generation of abuse victims to blame themselves? Barf.

I feel for Anna, I really do, and she is likable. I wish Josh and Anna would move away from that compound. I won't believe any redemption narrative that doesn't include breaking the cycle, and that necessitates moving away from Jim Bob. 

At the VERY LEAST, if they home school, to not use ATI. If they continue with that program, than I don't want to see Anna on the show either. 

 

[Lurky]

On 18/03/2017 at 8:45 PM, Snarkle Motion said:

The cult is toxic to men in that it messes up their views on sex and I do think puts a ton of pressure on them to be providers and masculine and straight. But JD has the ability to leave. Jana does not. Her options compared to her brothers aren't comparable.

Yes, this.  And Joe was the only Duggar allowed to go to college, even if it was Clown College.  None of the young women would ever be allowed that freedom.

The cult is terrible, awful, shitty for everyone, but it's less-awful to be a man than a woman.  And at least for a boy, he wouldn't have to be a brother-mom to his siblings like a 7 year old girl would be, getting up in the night to change nappies or take the baby to their mother for breast feeding etc etc.

[Berty K]

17 hours ago, Stephanie66 said:

Are we guessing names yet? Matthew? Micah is probably too close to Michael. 

I'll guess Marshall Joshua. 

[SweetFellowshipper]

5 hours ago, FeministShrew said:

Back in the dark ages when I was baby-making (over 20 years ago) we were offered whatever tests were available back then. Ex said "Oh, no! We don't want any of that. We'd never kill our baby!" The OB got visibly agitated and said that it's not to make you have an abortion, it's so the doctors know of any potential problems and can treat/plan accordingly if you choose to continue the pregnancy. 

(Even though I was swimming in the koolade then, I was thinking, Wait a minute! It's my body, and I'm the one who'll be taking care of this baby, shouldn't you (ex) have asked what I wanted? I think that was the first crack in the dam.)
 

Yeah, it would not be my decision to abort based on any abnormality or disability personally. Some of the testing I felt was necessary and some I wish I had opted out of...I am a CF carrier so it was important to know if my husband was as well to be prepared for that possibility. But the Down syndrome test really isn't *necessary* unless you plan to abort if it has Down's, as there's nothing to do about it if the baby has it and it's not a "health problem" or potentially fatal in the way CF is, or trisomy 13 or 18. I felt sort of pressured into the trisomy 21 testing and didn't really know why I needed it. Next time I would only request the ones I want. It's a strange thing, the politics of all that. And really up to each individual couple. 

[DugFan]

18 hours ago, Stephanie66 said:

Are we guessing names yet? Matthew? Micah is probably too close to Michael. 

Kinda like Joy Anna and Johannah?

21 hours ago, BabyBottlePop said:

If they did bring Josh back I wonder what he would be like on camera. He's so annoyingly snug in the show. I watched his wedding episode post scandal and literally couldn't look when he talked, he was so smarmy. I can't imagine him reserved and not uppity about himself, but he has gone down a few pegs so... it might be interesting to see a different side of him. 

To be honest though, I don't like the show still being on and wish it were gone. 

Yeah, I wonder too.  Remember in one of the very first shows, he was the one who wanted to go into film (or whatever verbiage the Duggars used... kinda like when they called Jinger's photography "taking pictures".  ).  I do wonder, in a completely Schadenfreude way, what he thinks when one of his siblings says, "Oh sorry, I have to run and do my talking head." or when a producer says, "Sorry Josh, can you just move a bit to the right to be out of frame?"  If it weren't for the fact that Josh would make money by being back on the show, I wouldn't mind an update just to see if even a little smugness has been wiped off his pasty face.

[vspielman]

21 hours ago, marmalade said:

Joshley's account was a mixture of little boy's sexual fantasies (like tub baths) and straight-up wanting submission from his partner. 

This is just sad.  I've been blessed in my life to have partners who were game for experimenting and I don't always appreciate that until I am reminded of things like this.  Yes, I know it's Josh, but I still have a tiny bit of sympathy.  VERY tiny, but it's there nonetheless.  (hiding now - lol)

[Hmmm_idolatry]

14 hours ago, mizandry said:

Yeah, Matthew seems like the most obvious Josh and Anna go-to for me -- I'm with you on that guess.

I can't think of many other M names for impending Christian Warribros, and I suspect that they'll be most likely to go for an Ma- name, if only to continue the current vowel pattern they've got going. They also seem to go for more regionally traditional names so... eh, okay Matthew. Be born or whatever. 

And once again, I'm left with so many naming "what ifs" were this child to be presumed a lady... Michelle would be my guess, but Mercy or Miracle would be close contenders.

Other Ma- boy names:
Mason
Manson 
Man Bob
Marvin
Marriage Saved

I bolded the three names above.  I think that these, along with Moses and Messiah are all perfect!  Especially Manson and Man Bob.  

[send*the*ferrets]

Down's syndrome also goes hand in hand with heart defects- it would be something good to know so they can have the NICU on standby. The heart defects would probably be caught on ultrasound, but if they have only 1 ultrasound at 20 weeks and it's a quick one, it could be missed.

[Iamtheway]

6 hours ago, FeministShrew said:

Back in the dark ages when I was baby-making (over 20 years ago) we were offered whatever tests were available back then. Ex said "Oh, no! We don't want any of that. We'd never kill our baby!" The OB got visibly agitated and said that it's not to make you have an abortion, it's so the doctors know of any potential problems and can treat/plan accordingly if you choose to continue the pregnancy. 

(Even though I was swimming in the koolade then, I was thinking, Wait a minute! It's my body, and I'm the one who'll be taking care of this baby, shouldn't you (ex) have asked what I wanted? I think that was the first crack in the dam.)
 

Your OB was right. It is good to know if something is wrong. It could be something that can be fixed. That's why it's so upsetting that the Duggars, who claim they love babies, don't get proper care.

We also opted out of the genetic testing though because there is actually a bigger risk of the test causing a misscarriage then there is of them finding something. After five years of ivf we weren't going to risk it and we knew we wouldn't abort if it had downs. 

We hoped anything else major would show on the scans. 

[Georgiana]

 

1 hour ago, Hmmm_idolatry said:

I bolded the three names above.  I think that these, along with Moses and Messiah are all perfect!  Especially Manson and Man Bob.  

My friend is named Manville. It's a family name (he's Manville VI), but it is a legitimate first name.  So they could do Manville Robert aka Man Bob. 

But I could see Josh and Anna not doing an M name.  I could see them switching to another letter (A?) because this is a "new beginning" and "new marriage" brought back by their faith and obedience to God.  Best way to get press and get their redemption tour rolling!

[Eatingintheprayercloset]

Matthew Robert.....middle name the same as Jim Bob's. Josh will name his son after his dad because JB is now supporting his growing family. 

 

It's unfortunate for all those involve that this family is growing. Josh was most likely unhappy with having baby after baby and indulged in a double life as escapism and his views on sexuality made it easier to stray without feeling bad about it. How is the show going to cover Anna's pregnancy? Counting On can continue to hide the balding elephant in the room but they are still supporting him. The Duggars handled everything horrible. If they still wanted to be on tv, which obviously they did since they have a "new" show, JB and Michelle should have let Josh do HIS OWN interview. Maybe Josh is the way he is because he never had to face consequences for his actions. Jesus rehab just guilt tripped him but he still had a wife and kids to go home to after six months. He is banned from existing on Counting On, but leg humpers and TLC still support him financially via Anna. I really doubt Josh cares that most secular and more open-minded Christians never want to see his mug again because he hated us anyway. If the Duggars were anything other than white Christians, would they have bounced back from not one but  TWO scandals? Hell, would they even have lasted as long as they did before Joshgate 1&2? I want Jim bob and Michelle to publicly acknowledge they have privilege in the form of their race and religion. Just once. No, instead they will just say their love of God and close-knit family are the reasons.....even though they have no problem excluding Josh from the CO universe.

 

 

 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

Yeah, it would not be my decision to abort based on any abnormality or disability personally. Some of the testing I felt was necessary and some I wish I had opted out of...I am a CF carrier so it was important to know if my husband was as well to be prepared for that possibility. But the Down syndrome test really isn't *necessary* unless you plan to abort if it has Down's, as there's nothing to do about it if the baby has it and it's not a "health problem" or potentially fatal in the way CF is, or trisomy 13 or 18. I felt sort of pressured into the trisomy 21 testing and didn't really know why I needed it. Next time I would only request the ones I want. It's a strange thing, the politics of all that. And really up to each individual couple. 

Husband and I had testing done with our daughter. We wouldn't have terminated the pregnancy except if we were told that my life was in danger or if we were told our child would die at or soon after birth. 

That said, we wanted as much time as possible to absorb and accept any diagnosis she could have been given. My sister is a teacher and she's adamant that her students with extra needs that excel the most are the ones whose parents accept their diagnosis and have done a good job navigating the mourning process that can accompany a diagnosis. Finding out ahead of time that our daughter would have a condition would have meant extra time for us to handle those things.

(We are fortunate that she did not have any of those conditions and was relatively healthy at birth.)

2 hours ago, Million Children For Jesus said:

Putting Josh on the show would be an affront to all sexual abuse survivors. What kind of message does that send? To both survivors and perpetrators? I feel the same way about the parents. I record the show, so I can fast forward through the parts with Jim Bob. He makes my skin crawl. He gives me the same feeling as when you finally get to see the demonic energy in one of those paranormal shows and the paranormal investigators tell the homeowner, "it's a dark spirit." Jim Bob and Michelle created the household dynamics that created Josh, and they refuse to acknowledge it or change it. They're easily just as bad, maybe worse than Josh. 

Are they still using ATI? Training the next generation of abuse victims to blame themselves? Barf.

I feel for Anna, I really do, and she is likable. I wish Josh and Anna would move away from that compound. I won't believe any redemption narrative that doesn't include breaking the cycle, and that necessitates moving away from Jim Bob. 

At the VERY LEAST, if they home school, to not use ATI. If they continue with that program, than I don't want to see Anna on the show either. 

 

You put this better than I could have.

[Jaedzia]

3 hours ago, BackseatMom said:

I think a lot of the "thank goodness its a boy" comments come not just because it is (slightly) better (but still not good by any stretch) to be a boy than a girl, but because the system depends on daughter labor. For example: will Jessa really pump out endless babies if she doesn't have a daughter soon to co-parent with her? It doesn't really work for the smuggars because they already have daughters - including a 7 year old, who I assume already has a baby assigned to her, or will in a few months.

I don't know at times what its better to wish for when it comes to these people. No matter what way you twist it, it sucks. The smuggars already have two daughters so should we wish for more daughters? If they dont have any more daughters  and have just boys from here on out, I feel so sorry for the two daughters that they do have! All the work will fall on them! But then on the other hand I wouldnt want to wish more daughters to be born into this horrible family! Its horrible no matter what you wish for! 

If Jessa only has boys, I can completely see the oldest boys becoming "dads". 

It just sucks, period. 

[atheistjd]

Yeah, but that doesn't have to imply p-in-the-v sex, or any sex at all. These people are so conservative they probably view masturbation as infidelity - esp masturbation to porn/sex cams/etc. I don't doubt that Josh fucked some other chicks, but just saying that  "unfaithful" could mean many things. 

I don't doubt that within the family/church they might count masturbation, phone/internet sex, etc. as "unfaithful." I very much doubt that, being the media-savvy grifters they are, they would have put out a statement that was ambiguous or could be misinterpreted if he "only" committed a less-than-p-in-v infidelity. They may believe one thing, but they are always selling themselves.

[MargaretElliott]

Ain't no baby like a band-aid baby.

But seriously, when has adding the stress of a newborn to an already damaged relationship ever helped? I'm sure someone on here has an anecdotal story about how a child brought the parents closer together, but in this damaging, unhealthy, victim-blaming view of relationships... this is definitely not a positive situation, especially for Anna. I feel bad for her, and the kids. 

[Fascinated]

The thing is, though, do we actually know that Josh and Anna's relationship is damaged?  From our mainly feminist perspective I think we all see it that way, but sweet Anna is no feminist.  I imagine that, in her eyes, their relationship is repaired.  

Hence, M5 is the personification of their (and, of course, god's) fine work.  I honestly think Anna is probably deliriously happy.  She has her (reformed) man and another blessing on the way.  Unless she reads, well, everything on the internet, I just think she's probably as happy as a little clam. Just my take.  

 

[singsingsing]

Plus, now they have an amaaaazing testimony! In their world, the only thing better than being a perfect fundie with a perfect marriage and perfect children is having a really dramatic testimony.

[Million Children For Jesus]

28 minutes ago, MargaretElliott said:

Ain't no baby like a band-aid baby.

But seriously, when has adding the stress of a newborn to an already damaged relationship ever helped? I'm sure someone on here has an anecdotal story about how a child brought the parents closer together, but in this damaging, unhealthy, victim-blaming view of relationships... this is definitely not a positive situation, especially for Anna. I feel bad for her, and the kids. 

Close to never, or maybe never. 

I think Anna is spearheading the baby making. She is the one that wants a big family, more than it would appear that Josh does. She may think a baby will bring them together, or maybe she doesn't care if it does or not, and is simply determined to get the quiver she was promised, and for Josh to man up and fulfil his expected role as breeding bull. 

As far as anecdotal stories, I have a few male friends who did not want children, or more children, but went along with it because they felt pressure to appear like a "family man." They didn't share their feelings about not wanting children because they felt they would be perceived as selfish playboys. One said he felt it was hurting his career when he was nearing 40 without a child. All of these men ended up divorced because the demands of fatherhood and family life were too much. These are men in regular society. Now multiply those feelings by about 1,000 for men raised like Josh, who are expected to have a lot of children. 

These people are obtuse. Josh is breaking under the pressure of their lifestyle, so the redemption narrative they're asking from him, is to do more of what he struggled with in the past. That's how he's going to prove he's better. If he doesn't snap at some point, color me surprised. 

[Fascinated]

2 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Plus, now they have an amaaaazing testimony! In their world, the only thing better than being a perfect fundie with a perfect marriage and perfect children is having a really dramatic testimony.

Seriously. Could things have worked out any better???  I think not. 

[FeministShrew]

22 minutes ago, MargaretElliott said:

Ain't no baby like a band-aid baby.

But seriously, when has adding the stress of a newborn to an already damaged relationship ever helped? I'm sure someone on here has an anecdotal story about how a child brought the parents closer together, but in this damaging, unhealthy, victim-blaming view of relationships... this is definitely not a positive situation, especially for Anna. I feel bad for her, and the kids. 

Sigh. I was a band-aid baby. I didn't know it until I was an adult. But as a child, not knowing the backstory, only seeing that my parents shouted at each other at every meal, only saw each other at meal times and at bedtime, and clearly hated each other, I thought it was my fault. Lots of family photos and home movies before I was born, camping and riding horses and going on fishing trips, all smiles, but it all seemed to end with my birth.
Now I know that it really ended with my father's first infidelity (the first time he was caught, anyway), and that I was the make-up sex baby. They had only wanted one child, who was already 8 when I was born. 
The happy family life resumed until I was about 2 or three, & Daddy got caught again. At that point, instead of getting a job & leaving him, my mom just began making all of our lives a living hell. To this day she she delights in telling me how she "stayed for you kids." Thanks, mom. I wish you had just got a divorce.
I feel so sorry for any kid who finds out they really didn't save the marriage.

[Kangaroo]

Okay so please forgive me, but I love statistics a bit too much not to contribute this very crude analysis. 

 

So i compared the reactions on the Duggar Family Official (DFO) and Counting On/TLC official facebook pages to try and figure out if Smuggar makes an appearance. The pregnancy announcement on DFO gathered 15k (20k reactions all up). There is currently 2355 comments on the post. Unlike almost every other Duggar announcement ever, there is no photo of the couple or the kids, nor any reaction videos from other siblings.

There was no announcement on any TLC official facebook pages. 

 

 

For comparison with recent Duggar announcements:

Joe and Kendra courtship announcement received 11k likes (13k reactions total) and 900 comments on DFO. On Counting On, there was 58k reactions.

Joy and Austin engagement received 14k likes (18k reactions total) and 1500 comments on DFO. 98k reactions on Counting On TLC.

Henry's birth announcement (DFO) had 20k likes (24k reactions total) and 1400 comments. 47k reactions on Counting On.

Jill's second pregnancy (DFO) received 6.1k likes (7k reactions total) with 269 comments. 63k on Counting On.

Joy and Austin courtship announcement received 9.7k likes (11k reactions total) and 500 comments on DFO. 73k on Counting On.

Jinger and Jeremy wedding announcement has 43k likes (52k reactions total) and 2000 comments on DFO. On counting on this was 44k.

 

 

Conclusion

Despite the overwhelmingly positive response on DFO, it appears TLC's still got a Smuggar ban going. Appears the most devoted leg humpers are all aboard the M5 redemption baby though.  

 

I think they're testing the waters by only releasing this statement, but I think they'll still avoid him on the show completely.  No birth special for M5 (possibly it will be filmed, but they'll annouce the birth and see how the public reacts to a photo of Smuggs first). The baby will be introduced on Counting On by the compound visiting Anna (or Anna visiting the compound) while Smuggar is conveniently "at work/took the boys for ice cream blah blah" and that will be the only mention of his name. All the focus would be on Anna, the baby and say J'Shell and Boob holding the child. Maybe the M Kids will make a brief cameo, the older married sisters will talk about how much they love babies and we'll get some cute Spurgeon and Henry shots instead.

 

Again, sorry for the massive post... My class was cancelled today so I had to get my statistics and conclusions (opinions really) on somewhere else! 

 

Ps. I like Anna, she seems nice person, but Anna's life is exactly what I never want, nor will ever allow my hypothetical future children to lead. No shitty relationships or lack of education or career will happen on my watch!

[Million Children For Jesus]

24 minutes ago, FeministShrew said:

The happy family life resumed until I was about 2 or three, & Daddy got caught again. 

^^ Anna's future. ^^

Thank you for sharing your story. It made me like total shit and terrible for you, but I also appreciate the insight I gleaned, and I really appreciate that you shared. 

[batuityma]

2 hours ago, send*the*ferrets said:

Down's syndrome also goes hand in hand with heart defects- it would be something good to know so they can have the NICU on standby. The heart defects would probably be caught on ultrasound, but if they have only 1 ultrasound at 20 weeks and it's a quick one, it could be missed.

As soon as we got the diagnosis of Down syndrome we were advised to switch hospitals so I could give birth at one with a level 4 NICU.  I was also transferred to a high risk clinic for the remainder of the pregnancy to monitor for all the issues that can come with a DS pregnancy including placental deterioration. I had a fetal echocardiogram at 26 weeks to check for heart defects. They found a defect even though the heart looked fine at the regular 20 week anatomy scan. The doctors were well prepared when my daughter was born because they were more informed from all the additional testing.

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

Husband and I had testing done with our daughter. We wouldn't have terminated the pregnancy except if we were told that my life was in danger or if we were told our child would die at or soon after birth. 

That said, we wanted as much time as possible to absorb and accept any diagnosis she could have been given. My sister is a teacher and she's adamant that her students with extra needs that excel the most are the ones whose parents accept their diagnosis and have done a good job navigating the mourning process that can accompany a diagnosis. Finding out ahead of time that our daughter would have a condition would have meant extra time for us to handle those things.

(We are fortunate that she did not have any of those conditions and was relatively healthy at birth.)

You put this better than I could have.

We definitely went through a mourning process and I am SO grateful that I had months to come to terms with the diagnosis BEFORE my daughter was born. We also had time to look into to resources and hook up with the local DS parents group so we were already somewhat educated and had a support system in place when she was born.  I can't even imagine going through all that after the birth when you have a newborn to take care of and are dealing with postpartum hormones.