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47 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I had to Google Orangeman and yeah, I would not be proud that my kid said that to a teacher. I don't know how many times I have forgotten to wear green and I would not be impressed by some child calling me names.  Why would the teacher be proud of a kid throwing a fit and name calling? 

 

Here in the UK St Patrick's Day is more of an equal opportunity booze-up now (if it's celebrated at all), but there was a time when it was very much an Irish thing, a Catholic thing, or an Irish-Catholic thing. And good lord, you wouldn't have questioned why somebody wasn't participating (probably because they didn't fit into either of the categories above) unless you were looking for trouble.

The fact the kid got away with it does speak to the different contexts

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Yeah, here for years St. Patrick's Day was an Irish Catholic thing. Now it's just an equal opportunity boozer. Most of us here have Irish roots and there's a great Catholic population but it's only in the past, maybe 40 years, that marriage between Catholics and Protestants was socially acceptable. I grew up with the statement "saucy as the black" and pointed out to my Dad how racist it was as I got older. He scowled at me and said "Black Protestant, not black person." 

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Personally, I find it kind of odd when fellow US-born Irish descendants hold very militant or strong opinions on North Ireland. I mean, it'd be nice to see Ireland reunited under the Irish flag, but that's for the actual residents of Ireland and North Ireland to decide. And personally, I'm just glad innocent citizens (both North Irish and Irish) aren't still being killed by car bombs or terrorist attacks. 

@formergotharditeI'm going to have to google Orangeman at some point because I've never heard it before - and I'm guessing it has nothing to do with Trump.

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In Gone with the Wind (the book), Gerald O'Hara (Scarlett's Irish immigrant father) refers to his Scots-Irish neighbor as a "Goddamned Orangeman" several times. In my head, Gerald O'Hara looks like actor Thomas Mitchell. 
So I can't picture a kid saying it. Only little old Thomas Mitchell shouting at the teacher in a thick, fake Irish brogue, waving a walking stick.
That's all I got.

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The Orange Order are assholes.  In my opinion, of course.  The history goes way back and they are not just in Ireland.  They are and were famously provocative, to say the least.     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order  

4 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Personally, I find it kind of odd when fellow US-born Irish descendants hold very militant or strong opinions on North Ireland.

I was quite horrified when I first came to the States to see collection boxes for the Provisional IRA openly displayed in "Irish" pubs.  No.  Just, no.  Didn't these people know that the PIRA was an illegal terrorist group in the Republic of Ireland as well as the UK with massive connections to organised crime?  

Eh, I spent most of the 70s in London being evacuated from buildings due to bomb threats.  I had a couple of near misses (like when a train went sky high 5 minutes after I got off it - the timer on the bomb was set wrong) but life went on.  

I did not approve of the UK policies in Northern Ireland.  I was a peacenik and I marched with the Peace People to Trafalgar Square.  The Peace People were started by Betty Williams (Protestant) and Mairead Corrigan (Catholic).   http://www.peacepeople.com/?page_id=8  I was very idealistic but I didn't think marching did any good even then.

I think it is important to remember how horrible the history has been over centuries, and that people are still living with the pain and losses.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, AlwaysExcited said:

If "orangeman" refers to Orange Order, than a lot. 

So you can confidently say that every Orangeman in the orange order is a bad person because of the actions of a few? 

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7 minutes ago, BlessaYourHeart said:

So you can confidently say that every Orangeman in the orange order is a bad person because of the actions of a few? 

I'm not the poster but I'm pretty sure, they meant that the history of the Orange Order is quite, umm, contentious. They were definitely stirring the pot for many years. It doesn't mean anything now except that you're protestant but in the past, that's a different kettle of fish.  

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If he hasn't lived alone and cooked for himself very much, he might have only bought pre-shredded cheese before. He was probably trying to use the tool at hand instead of, God forbid, realizing that Jinger probably knew what to do.

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8 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

I'm not the poster but I'm pretty sure, they meant that the history of the Orange Order is quite, umm, contentious. They were definitely stirring the pot for many years. It doesn't mean anything now except that you're protestant but in the past, that's a different kettle of fish.  

My original post was in reply to someone who was taking pride in using the term orange man as an insult and tarring everyone with the same brush. 

I was trying to make the point that the organisation is constantly changing and we are no longer in the 70s 

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4 hours ago, actuallyjessica said:

Michelle also went to public school, kissed before marriage and used birth control. This doesn't mean her children can do the same, just because good ol' Shelley had fun on a pair of waterskiies.

When the poster asked if the Duggars could swim, they probably meant actually swim, as in breaststroke, freestyle, backstroke, butterfly? Were they taught how to swim? Or do they just know how to doggy paddle enough so they don't drown?

I doubt they were taught anything called the breaststroke ;) 

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1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

The Orange Order are assholes.  In my opinion, of course.  The history goes way back and they are not just in Ireland.  They are and were famously provocative, to say the least.     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order  

I was quite horrified when I first came to the States to see collection boxes for the Provisional IRA openly displayed in "Irish" pubs.  No.  Just, no.  Didn't these people know that the PIRA was an illegal terrorist group in the Republic of Ireland as well as the UK with massive connections to organised crime?  

Eh, I spent most of the 70s in London being evacuated from buildings due to bomb threats.  I had a couple of near misses (like when a train went sky high 5 minutes after I got off it - the timer on the bomb was set wrong) but life went on.  

I did not approve of the UK policies in Northern Ireland.  I was a peacenik and I marched with the Peace People to Trafalgar Square.  The Peace People were started by Betty Williams (Protestant) and Mairead Corrigan (Catholic).   http://www.peacepeople.com/?page_id=8  I was very idealistic but I didn't think marching did any good even then.

I think it is important to remember how horrible the history has been over centuries, and that people are still living with the pain and losses.

 

 

 

"It's OK to send money to a documented violent terrorist organization if they're white!"

I'm American and it annoys the shit out of me how people don't want to understand the real history of what's been going on in Northern Ireland. I personally think that joining the ROI/staying in the UK is a matter that the people of Northern Ireland need to decide for themselves (either way, a whole lot of people won't be happy), and they don't need a bunch of idiot Yanks giving their uninformed, insensitive takes on the situation.

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46 minutes ago, BlessaYourHeart said:

My original post was in reply to someone who was taking pride in using the term orange man as an insult and tarring everyone with the same brush. 

I was trying to make the point that the organisation is constantly changing and we are no longer in the 70s 

Except that according  Wikipedia

Quote

Recently, however, Orangemen have begun voting for the DUP in large numbers due to their opposition to the Good Friday Agreement.[70] Relations between the DUP and Order have healed greatly since 2001, and there are now a number of high-profile Orangemen who are DUP MPs and strategists.[71]

In December 2009, the Orange Order held secret talks with Northern Ireland's two main unionist parties, the DUP and UUP.[72] The main goal of these talks was to foster greater unity between the two parties, in the run-up to the May 2010 general election.[72] Sinn Féin's Alex Maskey said that the talks exposed the Order as a "very political organisation".[72] Shortly after the election, Grand Master Robert Saulters called for a "single unionist party" to maintain the union.[73] He said that the Order has members "who represent all the many shades of unionism" and warned, "we will continue to dilute the union if we fight and bicker among ourselves".[73]

In the October 2010 issue of The Orange Standard, Grand Master Robert Saulters referred to 'dissident' Irish republican paramilitaries as the "Roman Catholic IRA".[74] SDLP MLA John Dallat asked Justice Minister David Ford to find if Saulters had broken the hate speech laws. He said: "Linking the Catholic community or indeed any community to terror groups is inciting weak-minded people to hatred, and surely history tells us what that has led to in the past".[75]In a 2011 survey of 1,500 Orangemen throughout Northern Ireland, over 60% believed that "most Catholics are IRA sympathisers".[76]

In 2015, the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland made a submission to the Northern Ireland Department of Arts, Culture and Leisure opposing the introduction of an Irish Language Bill. In its submission, the Lodge stated that it respected "Irish as one of the indigenous languages of the British Isles". However, the Lodge argued an Irish Language Act would promote inequality because it would be "directed towards a section of the Roman Catholic community".[77]

The highlights of the Orange year are the parades leading up to the celebrations on the Twelfth of July. The Twelfth, however, remains in places a deeply divisive issue, not least because of the alleged triumphalism, anti-Catholicism and anti-Irish nationalism of the Orange Order.

They are still working against peace agreements and pursuing divisive politics.

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1 hour ago, BlessaYourHeart said:

So you can confidently say that every Orangeman in the orange order is a bad person because of the actions of a few? 

No, "bad person" is a very strong insult that shouldn't be tossed around so easily. The order as a whole has problems, though. More than just "actions of a few". 

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2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

The Orange Order are assholes.  In my opinion, of course.  The history goes way back and they are not just in Ireland.  They are and were famously provocative, to say the least.     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order  

I was quite horrified when I first came to the States to see collection boxes for the Provisional IRA openly displayed in "Irish" pubs.  No.  Just, no.  Didn't these people know that the PIRA was an illegal terrorist group in the Republic of Ireland as well as the UK with massive connections to organised crime?  

Eh, I spent most of the 70s in London being evacuated from buildings due to bomb threats.  I had a couple of near misses (like when a train went sky high 5 minutes after I got off it - the timer on the bomb was set wrong) but life went on.  

I did not approve of the UK policies in Northern Ireland.  I was a peacenik and I marched with the Peace People to Trafalgar Square.  The Peace People were started by Betty Williams (Protestant) and Mairead Corrigan (Catholic).   http://www.peacepeople.com/?page_id=8  I was very idealistic but I didn't think marching did any good even then.

I think it is important to remember how horrible the history has been over centuries, and that people are still living with the pain and losses.

 

 

 

I have been to the republic of Ireland three time (I'm not Irish, I just really like the place) and had always wanted to visit Northern Ireland.  I have a history degree and I've always been fascinated by the so-called "troubles".  I was even more fascinated by the political art that is found in places like Belfast and Derry, and had always wanted to see it in person.  On the last trip to the republic, I talked Mr. Idolatry into getting on the train with me and spending the day in Belfast.  The night before, I cruised around the internet and found a driver to give us the tour of the neighborhoods, both Protestant and Catholic, where the murals could be found.  When we got the in the cab, we went through the Catholic Falls Road area first.  It was exactly as I had imagined it would be-art with Celtic themes, tributes to dead hunger strikers, Sinn Fein offices, pubs, etc.  When we got to the so-called peace lines, I was absolutely horrified.  The peace line is basically a wall that separates the neighborhood.  It's taller than the Berlin Wall ever was-purely because both sides kept throwing bombs over it during the troubles.  The houses that are closest to it on the Catholic side literally have bricked-over windows in the front.  They have done this because the Orange Order marches down their street every year and they got tired of both having to see this and of things getting thrown at their windows by Orange Order supporters.  I cannot imagine living this way.  It amazes me that the Orange Order are still allowed to to march through the Catholic neighborhoods.  Talk about deliberate provocation.  

I knew nothing about the Protestant neighborhoods because we simply don't get coverage of their version of the IRA in the US.  Yes, they have their own paramilitary/terrorist groups, and they are every bit as violent and awful as the Provisional IRA.  The murals on the buildings in the Protestant neighborhoods were also very disturbing.  Their art featured people in ski masks pointing automatic weapons at the viewer.  I was very creeped out by many of their murals.  I understand why the Orange Order exists, and yes, they have the right to hold all the parades they want, but IMO, they have no business marching through the Catholic neighborhoods.  

I'm not anti-Protestant, but let's just say that trip was a huge eye-opener for me.  In the US, our coverage of NI comes from the BBC.  Our movies about this issue are always from the republican point of view, and the "villain" in those films is usually the British military.  I had no idea about the Protestant paramilitary groups, and I was shocked to see what their neighborhoods were like.  

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Interesting (maybe) story about my maternal grandparents.  My grandmother was Irish Catholic (actually born in Ireland), and my grandfather was first generation English Protestant (he was born in Canada but his parents were not).  When they married, both sets of parents stopped seeing/speaking to them and neither set saw my mother and her sister - their grandchildren -  for years after the marriage.

 

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26 minutes ago, SamiKatz said:

Interesting (maybe) story about my maternal grandparents.  My grandmother was Irish Catholic (actually born in Ireland), and my grandfather was first generation English Protestant (he was born in Canada but his parents were not).  When they married, both sets of parents stopped seeing/speaking to them and neither set saw my mother and her sister - their grandchildren -  for years after the marriage.

 

It's odd to think of from our vantage point in 2017. It feels both foreign and like hardly any time has passed. The Good Friday Agreement was set out in 1997, which after all was 20 years ago. It's a real so near/so far feeling.

Someone was telling me that at Queen's University in Belfast, someone had developed a history-cum-nursing course to be taught to new nurses, some of whom are too young to have memories of what happened, but who may still have to treat patients with injuries dating back from those times.

AS part of patient care it's good context to have, but these young 18 year-olds may not know how to approach it

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How did the teacher respond, @DaniLouisiana? Was there evidence that he actually wore orange as a statement, or did your son just assume that and "throw a fit"? You said he walked out of the class, was there any questions by administration on why he walked out after calling his teacher a name? I want to know the rest of this story!

As for Jinger and the chef, I didn't see it, but it was probably all very staged and planned for drama. 

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@formergothardite, my son had been fighting a religous "war" with this teacher the entire school year. The teacher wore orange as a pointed comment to my son. My son and I are the only Catholics in our family. At that point, he was very much into our church.  He has had a lot of practice with religious differences and comments as his father is a Southern Baptist and neither Bigfoot or I will step into one of those churches unless we Have to.  

The teacher would make ugly comments about our church throughout the school year and there were many, many conferences between the school, my son, me, and the prinicipal. The teacher has/had the right to his views but not the right to infringe on my son's religion. For those who felt my child insulted the teacher-he stopped "teasing" my son after he stood up for himself and walked out of class. 

Sadly, this has been mine and my children's experience with California's public schools-our various religions (all 3 kids have a different faith) have been mocked, belittled and in one case a teacher tried to convert the whole class to her religion (she was fired). If I can manage it, the kast two grandkids will not attend public school in this state. GrandGirl seems to thrive in her schools, which are a different district than the one my kids attended.

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Wow, that sounds terrible. Did you write the newspapers or local news stations about it?  A teacher attacking a student over religion is a pretty big deal. I would think the threat of a lawsuit and/or bad publicity would have quickly made the school deal with the teacher. 

What did the school do when your child just left the class? 

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I actually had a summer school teacher in my last year of high school who actively pushed his religion on the class. And he was basically a fundie Christian. Very unusual where I'm from. It was supposed to be a social studies class, and I'd say he spent at least 70% of the time talking about his brand of Christianity, how women should be submissive to men, homosexuality was immoral, and evolution was a lie. I still get angry thinking about it, and one of my biggest regrets is that I didn't report him or complain to anyone higher up about him. But I was young and afraid of retribution - I'd had a terrible experience in the school system, had been denied help in other ways multiple times, and just wanted to keep my head down and get out. If I could go back in time, I would report him. It was so totally inappropriate and wrong.

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@formergothardite, unfortunately my inlaws were both employed by the same district at the time so I was convinced by them not to go the media. The school suspended my son for 3 days which was fine with me. We had had problems with this issue before with this particular teacher planning "mandatory"  events that interfered with religionous classes-I believe that what started the "war". Bigfoot didn't want to miss religion class for school related activities that were after school hours. Much like I did and still do, he found our church to be a peaceful refuge from the pressures of school/home.

I don't want to offend anyone else so I'm going to explain a little of my realtionship with the SBC and my childhood.

My biomom was SBC. My dad and stepmama are Catholic but attended Lutheren(?) church when we moved to the Midwest. I attended all three depending on whose house I was at on Sunday and if it was summer until biomom moved us to Nevada. I found the SBC church to be accusatory and hateful and hypocritical throughout my childhood as in the preacher would say to be kind to kids like me from the pulpit but tell his kids and others not to play with me at the social.  Both of my dad's churchs were more "restful" to me. I didn't feel attacked there. In the summer, until my biomom put a stop to it, my dad took me to LA and Catholic church. I throughly enjoyed it. I loved religion class. When my Bigfoot was born, I put my foot down and said he will be christened in my church! The next one can be your church. My husband has Catholic friends who are Bigfoot's godparents.  For awhile, Bigfoot and I went to church together every Sunday-then he became disenchanted with all religion.

fFor the record, I have attended SBC with my husband and his family. He has only attended my church with me for Bigfoot's christening.

Now I have to fix the damage tears do to makeup. ...

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29 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I actually had a summer school teacher in my last year of high school who actively pushed his religion on the class. And he was basically a fundie Christian. Very unusual where I'm from. It was supposed to be a social studies class, and I'd say he spent at least 70% of the time talking about his brand of Christianity, how women should be submissive to men, homosexuality was immoral, and evolution was a lie. I still get angry thinking about it, and one of my biggest regrets is that I didn't report him or complain to anyone higher up about him. But I was young and afraid of retribution - I'd had a terrible experience in the school system, had been denied help in other ways multiple times, and just wanted to keep my head down and get out. If I could go back in time, I would report him. It was so totally inappropriate and wrong.

I went to a pretty fundie school (non-denominational, aka calvinist/baptist). Not as bad as Duggars obviously, but a very very obvious bias existed in almost every class. Sometimes it was just a little bit, sometimes it was pretty strong. The education itself wasn't actually that bad, and about 90% was actually learning that would happen at any other school. But for the times that the bias did show, it was gold. World history was essentially "why the catholics were corrupt until protestants saved the day". Biology there was "why evolution is a lie, and the earth is 6000 years old". It was really ridiculous and easy to laugh at in hindsight, but a lot of that misinformation was corrected in college, and it makes for a good story now. My catholic friends get a kick out of what was taught at my "non-denom" christian school. 

But my experience was slightly different than yours because I TOTALLY argued with teachers and students about the normal talking points of the evangelical right (abortion, homosexuality, global warming, welfare, etc. ) when it came up in class. I'm talking full blown derailing of classes for like 40 minutes. I was totally THAT kid. I wasn't the "rebel, atheist, angsty" teenager either, was and still very much am a christian; I just hated the hypocrisy. However, I'm still vocal about it today, because for all the people who felt like they didn't have the voice to stand up for what they felt was right because of (pretty justified) fear of retribution. School should be a place of learning, not soapboxing mis-information to fragile young minds. 

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2 minutes ago, immodest_countenance said:

But my experience was slightly different than yours because I TOTALLY argued with teachers and students about the normal talking points of the evangelical right (abortion, homosexuality, global warming, welfare, etc. ) when it came up in class. I'm talking full blown derailing of classes for like 40 minutes. I was totally THAT kid. I wasn't the "rebel, atheist, angsty" teenager either, was and still very much am a christian; I just hated the hypocrisy. However, I'm still vocal about it today, because for all the people who felt like they didn't have the voice to stand up for what they felt was right because of (pretty justified) fear of retribution. School should be a place of learning, not soapboxing mis-information to fragile young minds. 

I actually did argue with him in class, I just never reported him, to my eternal regret. And the worst thing was that I was the ONLY one who argued with him! This was a public school board in Canada. Just ludicrous. I was actually a Christian at the time too, but a fairly liberal one (still am, more or less) and part of what drove me insane was his completely narrow minded view of the faith.

On a lighter note, I had an instructor at university one summer who was trying not to offend any young earth creationists who might have been in the class, and said, "Let's say you believe in evolution. Okay. Now, let's say you believe God created the earth 2000 years ago..." I really got a kick out of that. I'm pretty sure even the most ardent young earth creationist doesn't believe that God created the world after the events of the New Testament!

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3 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

"It's OK to send money to a documented violent terrorist organization if they're white!"

This totally reminded me of these pictures of Peter King (Republican congressman from New York and very vocal critic of Islam, Muslim radicals, and supporter of the Muslim ban). Doesn't count when they're white and the same religion as you, I guess.

 

article-0-0000AF9F00000258-244_468x339.jpg

gerry-adams-peter-king.jpg

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30 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I actually did argue with him in class, I just never reported him, to my eternal regret. And the worst thing was that I was the ONLY one who argued with him! This was a public school board in Canada. Just ludicrous. I was actually a Christian at the time too, but a fairly liberal one (still am, more or less) and part of what drove me insane was his completely narrow minded view of the faith.

On a lighter note, I had an instructor at university one summer who was trying not to offend any young earth creationists who might have been in the class, and said, "Let's say you believe in evolution. Okay. Now, let's say you believe God created the earth 2000 years ago..." I really got a kick out of that. I'm pretty sure even the most ardent young earth creationist doesn't believe that God created the world after the events of the New Testament!

Ha I'm glad you did! Liberal christians unite :). It's easy to regret the things you didn't do, but at least you were there to push back on some of his bullsh*t. Perhaps it lessened the damage that he was trying to inflict on your peers. 

On that note ... its pretty sad you your instructor to preface a class like that to not offend the young earth creationists. I get prefacing a class that is naturally controversial with a lot of conflicting theories and opinions (Political Science, Sociology, Ethics, Philosophy, etc), but unless you're currently working on a Genetics dissertation, you really have no room to argue or get offended at things like evolution. If your beliefs are seriously tested in (what i'm assuming) is a freshman level biology class; then you need to re-evaluate how valid your beliefs are. 

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