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47of74

Pope Francis Normalizing

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47of74

I can hear the right wing noise machine firing up already over this...

americamagazine.org/faith/2017/03/08/pope-francis-discusses-ordination-married-men-response-priest-shortage

Quote

In a wide-ranging interview with the German weekly Die Zeit that will be published on March 9, Pope Francis briefly discussed the idea of allowing the ordination of married men to the Catholic priesthood.

His interviewer suggested that it was hard to attract young men to the priesthood and asked if the church would consider telling them “that they don’t have to renounce a love life in order to become a priest? Maybe as a bishop or a cardinal—but not as a priest?”

The pope responded: “The issue of voluntary celibacy is frequently discussed, especially if there is a shortage of clerics. But voluntary celibacy is not a solution.”

The pope answered: “We need to consider if viri probati could be a possibility. If so, we would need to determine what duties they could undertake, for example, in remote communities.”

Yeah, I hope he pushes this through, if for no other reason than the look on Lord High Ray Burke's face when he does that. egrin.gif

Doesn't look like the womenfolk are going to get invited in anytime soon, but hey it's a start.  Hopefully in my lifetime. 

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2manyKidzzz

I read awhile ago that he said that there would NEVER be female priests. And so it goes. 

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Red Jumper

Beware of the fact that there is something called PR. We have seen some not so nice messages from the same man.

Furthermore this is an old boys club: other men might have a different opinion. those men are not without power

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ScorpiousMalfoy

Francis says a lot of things. I really doubt married Catholic priests will happen in my lifetime.

Edited by ScorpiousMalfoy

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Red Jumper

pet peeve of mine:

6 minutes ago, ScorpiousMalfoy said:

married Catholic priests

Roman Catholic that is.

There are Catholic groups that are different f.e. in the question of a priest love life

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Red Jumper

Sorry, I didn't want to sound hand-slapping. I just feel strongly for those who want to keep their belief but have a love life. They should know that there are options (although i also feel some the best options for "RC+wife" do not come necessarily with a Catholic label, so do you homework. I am not sure which group is best for "RC+husband")

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smittykins

My former Episcopal priest said that should he want to become Catholic, he would be allowed to stay married.

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Hane
1 hour ago, smittykins said:

My former Episcopal priest said that should he want to become Catholic, he would be allowed to stay married.

Yes--this is true. At a Catholic retreat, though, a priest told us that some Episcopal married priests convert to Catholicism because they're looking for a faith with more conservative doctrines.

Priests of the Eastern Rite, which is part of the Roman Communion, can get married.

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Palimpsest
1 hour ago, smittykins said:

My former Episcopal priest said that should he want to become Catholic, he would be allowed to stay married.

Yes.  This is already a thing for converting married Episcopalian priests.  http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/07/us/married-roman-catholic-priests-are-testing-a-tradition.html

I don't think Francis said anything new.  Considering viri probati for "remote areas" is what the Vatican has been doing for years and done nothing much other than discuss for years.  I'm not holding my breath.

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dawbs

Pope Francis says a lot of things.  ANd he does nothing to back them up.
And then he sits back as the vatican scrambles to say what he 'really meant' by what he said.  And he does nothing while that happens.

It kinda makes me hostile.  Yes, he says some amazing stuff, and he ignores the church walking back all of that stuff immediately after it leaves his mouth.

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ScorpiousMalfoy
2 hours ago, dawbs said:

Pope Francis says a lot of things.  ANd he does nothing to back them up.
And then he sits back as the vatican scrambles to say what he 'really meant' by what he said.  And he does nothing while that happens.

It kinda makes me hostile.  Yes, he says some amazing stuff, and he ignores the church walking back all of that stuff immediately after it leaves his mouth.

Yup. I think he's pretty good at PR. Social media, relating to youth etc. Benedict XVI wasn't that likeable. But if somebody expects RC Church to magically become liberal bc of it, I think that's a bit naive.

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rosastrohhut

Basically everything I was taught at my catholic girl's school is going down now... We were told priests could not have families as they had to focus on the church members and their problems - and a relationship would simply be too stressful and unfair to the wife as her needs could not be fulfilled.

I am happy I quit my club membership.

(Ex Roman catholic here).

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47of74
1 hour ago, ScorpiousMalfoy said:

Yup. I think he's pretty good at PR. Social media, relating to youth etc. Benedict XVI wasn't that likeable. But if somebody expects RC Church to magically become liberal bc of it, I think that's a bit naive.

Yeah, while I like some of what Francis is doing, it's not enough that I would ever consider returning to the Roman fold.  I'm happy where I'm at in the Episcopal Church.  I only wish I hadn't waited as long as I did to switch, I could've saved myself some of the emotional issues if I had switched earlier.

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Palimpsest
3 hours ago, ScorpiousMalfoy said:

Benedict XVI wasn't that likeable. 

Ratzinger was hateable.  His hands were filthy. I'm still convinced he was involved in every financial (Vatican Bank), political, and sexual abuse scandal since the '70s, if not before.  And, yes, I still believe John Paul I's death was highly suspicious.

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ScorpiousMalfoy
22 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Ratzinger was hateable.  His hands were filthy. I'm still convinced he was involved in every financial (Vatican Bank), political, and sexual abuse scandal since the '70s, if not before.  And, yes, I still believe John Paul I's death was highly suspicious.

Ooooh, yes, that was weird right? 33 days or what into the pontificate? Ofc, as a Pole, I guess I can't complain about whom they chose in his place :P

 

 

(Disclaimer: I don't consider myself a member of the RCC anymore and I don't idealise JP2 in any way, but politically and spiritually he still is a big influence  here)

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louisa05

I think these comments were taken a bit out of their context, then made to be something they are not. Then Francis will not pursue the ordination of married men to the priesthood and people like those posting in these threads will continue to say "see, he just says stuff and never does it!". 

The interviewer actually specifically referred to married men ordained as deacons when framing the question and Francis responded that perhaps they need to look at their role in remote communities lacking priests. 

I would say that the possible change would be in what deacons can and cannot do sacramentally and how they can serve communities rather than ordination of married men. Currently deacons can baptize, preside over marriages, give homilies and distribute the eucharist (lay people can also distribute in many countries now), but cannot celebrate a mass or perform other sacraments.  

Article with exact quotes at this link: 

http://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2017/03/08/pope-francis-discusses-ordination-married-men-response-priest-shortage

Note that later in the article it talks about the commission studying the female diaconate and the pope says the question is more on what role female deacons historically had than whether or not women were (or can be?) deacons. 

 

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47of74
7 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Ratzinger was hateable.  His hands were filthy. I'm still convinced he was involved in every financial (Vatican Bank), political, and sexual abuse scandal since the '70s, if not before.  And, yes, I still believe John Paul I's death was highly suspicious.

Whey Benny first elected I had a friend at the time who said he was thinking of converting to the Episcopal church.  I was determined to make the best of a horrible situation and hope he didn't turn out to be a disaster.  Still I toyed with leaving from time to time.  I wish I had left then instead of waiting so long. 

6 hours ago, ScorpiousMalfoy said:

Ooooh, yes, that was weird right? 33 days or what into the pontificate? Ofc, as a Pole, I guess I can't complain about whom they chose in his place :P

Yeah gotta wonder what would've happened if John Paul I had managed to live a bit longer.  He had some definite plans.

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Red Jumper

@louisa05 I agree with you that he did not say what many like to hear concerning the celibacy. He actually made it clear that this is not going to change from 100% to 0%.

But I think he likes to play on emotions. He likes to vaguely pretend there might be change (good PR). It is a disappointment of what people felt he said, not what he really said.

But does this not-change come as a surprise? How long did it take the RCC to realize the earth is not the centre of the universe? How long did it take to admit that they were wrong? Now we want to change a tradition that has been in place for so long. This tradition influenced the history of the church like very few things. F.e. Who would have been pope in the Renaissance if they had legitimate heirs (sons born within marriage)? Would the Anglican church exist?.... Fast-forward to present times: Would people stay RCC if their priests had families? Would people stay/become RCC if they heard sermons about how hard it was for the priest to come out of the closet?

I think people long for this so strongly. Some caressing words and phrases are all it takes to spark the believe it is finally happening.

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naatashamaru

Pope Francis talks such a good talk. I wish that the church actually went along with some of the stuff. I do love my Episcopal church though :)

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danvillebelle

Celibacy for priests was not part of Catholicism until the 12th century.  If they wanted to be all historically correct about it, they could say they were going back to their roots.  

Orthodox priests have always been allowed to be married and have families (because they did not, as the Romans did, decide a thousand years into the game to change it up).  

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rosethorne
5 hours ago, danvillebelle said:

Celibacy for priests was not part of Catholicism until the 12th century.  If they wanted to be all historically correct about it, they could say they were going back to their roots.  

Orthodox priests have always been allowed to be married and have families (because they did not, as the Romans did, decide a thousand years into the game to change it up).  

I often think about this fact.

My husband is RC, I am...well, not.

But I was born an raised in a place that is/was predominantly Russian Orthodox, and their priests are REQUIRED (or so I've been told by the priest) to be married. When he (RO priest) spoke about it, he stated that the reason he was required to marry was that their church felt that it was wrong to minister to married couples (and children) if they had no experience with being married or having children.

The RO and RC buildings are literally across the street from another, and if you attend one on a required holy day, the other considers this a valid fulfillment of the obligation, so I've always been confused by why the RC crowd was so opposed to letting their priests marry.

 

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Georgiana

Remember that while the Pope is nominally the king of the Roman Catholic Church, he's more of a constitutional monarch in actuality than an absolute monarch.  The Catholic Church is not Tsarist Russia, nor even the PRC:  in practice, he cannot drastically revise the Catholic Catechism and Doctrine on his own.  He can interpret.  He can clarify.  He can correct earlier, incorrect interpretations.  He can make Infallible Statements.  

But out and out changes or contradictions or reversals require an Ecumenical Council.  Which are massive undertakings and generally avoided (especially by a Pope who professes to hate pomp and excessive ceremony and expense, a Council is necessarily all 3).    

In my and many other Catholic's opinions, this is a much, MUCH bigger change than anything done in the radical and sometimes considered overly aggressive Vatican II.  This is MAJOR COUNCIL territory.  Celibacy was codified in Nicaea I (a very major Council).  This is NOT something Francis can do himself.  

 

Examples of Pope Powers vs Council Need:

Mary Magdalene was mistakenly conflated with the repentant whore by Pope Gregory I in a homily.  This error never made it into official canon, but it was accepted and referenced in official Catholic documents regarding the saint.  In 1969, the Vatican corrected the error and removed all mentions of the Sinful Woman from association with Mary Magdalene.  Error made by the Vatican, later corrected by the Vatican, nothing in official Church doctrine was changed.  Also, super minor.

"Life Beginning at Conception": this is TECHNICALLY not on the books as the stance formalized by a Council was actually the medieval (Augustinian? Aquinan?  One of those guys, relating Greek ideas) where the soul enters an infant at different times for male and female.  However, Popes have done some fancy interpretive dances in order to extend the idea back to Conception.  That's the power of interpretation.  Giving doctrine modern life.  A bigger deal, but this is not really CHANGING the core values of the Church, but restating them for the modern world.

Reform:  If you see this word, then you need a council.  Any sort of reform is considered to be a major deal in the Catholic Church and is not undertaken without consideration and discussion from a global council of the Church.  Examples:  Liturgical Reform, Clerical Reform, Doctrinal Reform/Clarification. 

Heresy:  the most common reason for councils.  Also generally indicates reform as responses to heresy nearly always include some sort of Reformation.  However, these councils ALWAYS include Doctrinal Clarification.  Historically, heresies have been a result of a need for reform or a need for clarification.  

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acheronbeach
17 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

Reform:  If you see this word, then you need a council.  Any sort of reform is considered to be a major deal in the Catholic Church and is not undertaken without consideration and discussion from a global council of the Church.  Examples:  Liturgical Reform, Clerical Reform, Doctrinal Reform/Clarification. 

Thissounds like the punch line from a Father Ted joke. 

(As an aside, Georgiana... your avatar... OMGLOL... I just can't.  All I can think of is the Pride and Prejudice 2005 movie... what excellent boiled potatoes!)

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47of74
22 hours ago, naatashamaru said:

Pope Francis talks such a good talk. I wish that the church actually went along with some of the stuff. I do love my Episcopal church though :)

Yes he certainly does.  But still, he could allow for both married priests and women priests tomorrow and it still wouldn't convince me to come back over.  That ship has sailed, as it were, straight across the Thames and is not going back.

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Georgiana
2 minutes ago, acheronbeach said:

Thissounds like the punch line from a Father Ted joke. 

(As an aside, Georgiana... your avatar... OMGLOL... I just can't.  All I can think of is the Pride and Prejudice 2005 movie... what excellent boiled potatoes!)

Thanks!  I got this guy from the Boyer thread.  Do I know who he is?  No.  But my goodness if I don't want people on here to associate me with the winning combination of that hairline, that neck ruff, and that smile.  

However, my girl and traditional avatar Davia is back and giving him a run for his money.  And you never know when Jill Rodrigues will decide to bless facebook with another selfie session for Plexus!

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